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PAKFA vs F-22

@MOD can you please remove that randomradio guy, he is making this thread a Si-fi novelty by dragging the discussion to the level of sheer stupidity```


he is an Indian, do I have your answer now? :lol:

Here's two Chinese papers:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1270963815002254
Authors: Mingxu Yi Lifeng Wang Jun Huang
Active cancellation stealth is a significant research direction in the field of stealth. In contrast with traditional stealth, the radar detection probability of the target to be protected could be reduced further by active cancellation stealth [3–6]. The high speed microelectronic devices, phased-array antenna techniques, and computer processing have made active cancellation stealth techniques more feasible and practical.

http://www.mwrf.com/systems/analyzing-active-cancellation-stealth
Authors: Xu Sheng and Xu Yuanming
The concept of active cancellation stealth has actually existed since the 1960s, with the basic idea being to produce a train of coherent waves that will reduce the scattering echo of a radar target, rendering the target “invisible” to a radar system. Active cancellation methods have several advantages compared to passive stealth techniques: They do not require changing the shape of a target, or spraying it, or coating it with absorbing materials.

So even Chinese scientists are wrong?

:lol:
 
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It's an absolutely beautiful aircraft and I sincerely hope it achieves the goals it was set out to from the onset, and if it does have some advantage is that it in its testing stage where it can still absorb a lot of the new, stealth and electronic technologies that are materializing as time goes by, but it's pretty much stuck with the overall shaping that the its design incorporates. The F-22 is at even greater disadvantage as far as that aspect is concerned since its production has completely stopped, but it too can absorb new technologies and upgrade as well, to a certain extent.

One of the latest pics of the Su-57 and you can see some RAM treatment but still visible are a lot of the panel riveting and seams etc.

Still nothing to suggest those LERX fairings are weapons bays or pods or containers whatever you want to call them, but in this pic you can actually see a visible delineation of some sort of door panel on the side of the fairing. But even if it is, seems very tight to fit even an R-73 missile in there, even with folded fins it just doesn't seem to have the room for it. I think its some type of EW or EWR sensor fairing and not a weapons station.

225061.jpg


Frontal and lateral RCS might be fine to a certain unknown degree but I still think there are issues with the underside and of course the IR signature of the nozzles which the F-22 addresses very well.

Take a look at the "smoothness" of the skin and the complete lack of any visible seams on the F-35 and the very visible "taping" of all the seams and RAM treatment.

vq34VjK.jpg


Similar treatment on the F-22.

F-22_RIAT.png


F-22%20Raptor%20performs%20a%20right%20bank%20during%20the%202017%20Heritage%20Flight%20Training%20and%20Certification%20Course%20at%20Davis-Monthan%20Air%20Force%20Base%20Ariz.%20Feb.%2010%202017..jpg


The smoothness of the bottom of the F-22 is impeccable, and the lack of corners from the entire engine compartment from the intakes to the nacelles to the nozzles. Compare that to the bottom of the PAK-FA.

DFaFQS9XkAAcCOj.jpg

This is how the F-35 looks like in reality.
8539995088_4baeb84d6e_o.jpg


And the F-22.
file.php


And if you go closer towards the F-22:
stacks-image-e1bfff9-1200x900.jpg


attachment.php


The painting is dark on both jets, so you have to go really close to look at it.

Otoh, PAK FA is either not painted or is painted using light colours like blue.

Still nothing to suggest those LERX fairings are weapons bays or pods or containers whatever you want to call them, but in this pic you can actually see a visible delineation of some sort of door panel on the side of the fairing. But even if it is, seems very tight to fit even an R-73 missile in there, even with folded fins it just doesn't seem to have the room for it. I think its some type of EW or EWR sensor fairing and not a weapons station.

Those are side bays.

In a pic you posted, you will notice the crease for the door.
Look closely just below the LERX, there is a prominent line there.
225061.jpg


@randomradio , I have a couple of questions for you: Is the FGFA still planned to be a 2-seat version? And what is the eventual radar that the IAF expects in this aircraft?

From what Pogosyan said in India, the two-seat FGFA is planned, but its development will be taken up later due to the expense. The initial aircraft for the IAF will be one-seat.

As for the radar, the IAF's asked for a "brand new radar which does not exist", so we don't know what that means. Sukhoi wanted more money by saying that this radar was not asked for by the RuAF also, they are getting a GaN radar, which means we have to pay for the development of this "new" radar. So the Russians asked for $2B extra for its development, instead of sharing the costs. But after negotiations restarted in early 2016, considering the program is delayed, I think now both RuAF and IAF will be going for this new radar. We can guess it could be a new quasi-quantum radar or photonics radar. There is no official confirmation yet, but we will know in a few years. But I'll be happy with a GaN radar also.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-for-indo-russian-fighter-112051502009_1.html
A key IAF requirement is a ‘360-degree’ AESA (airborne electronically scanned active) radar, rather than the AESA radar that Russia developed. Either way, India would pay Russia extra: either in licence fee for the Russian radar; or hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, for developing a world-beating, 360-degree AESA radar.

Anyway--
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...o-sukhoi-t-50-russia/articleshow/57185821.cms
Russia has said that the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) program that is being planned with India would be a 'completely new aircraft' and is not linked to Moscow's own new generation fighter, the Sukhoi T 50.

"The Indian FGFA is not a copy cat of the T 50, it will be a new aircraft that will also have some technologies from the T 50. If India had wanted the T 50, we would not be working on a new aircraft (FGFA) program," Kladov said.
 
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Spectra has costed the French billions of dollars. Way more than what a similar system should cost if it was a normal aircraft. And it has taken 20+ years to develop and 30 years to bring it to its current level of stealth capability.

Every time the French add something on the Rafale, they take it to the anechoic chamber for large scale stealth tests. That's why adding equipment on Rafale costs hundreds of millions of dollars while a similar integration of weapons costs 10 times lesser on other aircraft.

C4xvVa1WYAAlofi.jpg
and F-22 can't test anechoic chamber, what a fool you're:lol::enjoy:, in simple words you are saying that RAFALE is equal or Better than all 5th generation jets @randomradio :rofl::man_in_love::jester: get out of your fairy tales, fantasy world Mr stupid @randomradio, if RAFALE is that advance why super powers building 5th gen jets and spending billion of $$$$$$ to develop 5th gen jetso_O and why you investing FGFA if RAFALE is that advanced, too much bashing is bad for your health Mr stupid @randomradio :rofl::hang3::hang2::sarcastic:
 
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and F-22 can't test anechoic chamber, what a fool you're:lol::enjoy:, in simple words you are saying that RAFALE is equal or Better than all 5th generation jets @randomradio :rofl::man_in_love::jester: get out of your fairy tales, fantasy world Mr stupid @randomradio, if RAFALE is that advance why super powers building 5th gen jets and spending billion of $$$$$$ to develop 5th gen jetso_O and why you investing FGFA if RAFALE is that advanced, too much bashing is bad for your health Mr stupid @randomradio :rofl::hang3::hang2::sarcastic:

Dude, you have a lot of difficulty in keeping up with this.
 
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Dude, you have a lot of difficulty in keeping up with this.
:lol::lol: @randomradio kid you have no answer for me kid, tell me why you're investing FGFA if RAFALE has frontal RCS of a Sparrow:hitwall::crazy::enjoy: and become invisible/invincible to all radars and IR sensors, least RCS of any jets either its fighter or bomber are/was B-2 and F-117 a size of a golf ball, and al 5th gen jets are way ahead to RAFALE i the term of overall capability, do you know that what EW, ECM and ECCM used by F-22, F-35, T-50 and J-20 they will have definitely better system than RAFALE SPECTRA because 5th gen jets are way ahead of RAFALE in the term of avionics think Mr stupid @randomradio :hitwall::crazy::lol:
 
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:lol::lol: @randomradio kid you have no answer for me kid, tell me why you're investing FGFA if RAFALE has frontal RCS of a Sparrow:hitwall::crazy::enjoy: and become invisible/invincible to all radars and IR sensors, least RCS of any jets either its fighter or bomber are/was B-2 and F-117 a size of a golf ball, and al 5th gen jets are way ahead to RAFALE i the term of overall capability, do you know that what EW, ECM and ECCM used by F-22, F-35, T-50 and J-20 they will have definitely better system than RAFALE SPECTRA because 5th gen jets are way ahead of RAFALE in the term of avionics think Mr stupid @randomradio :hitwall::crazy::lol:

Rafale is as good as the F-35. Both stealth and avionics.

Dassault CEO Eric Trappier:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...n-ahead-of-F-16-jets/articleshow/54491801.cms
Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F-16.

Air Chief Marshal Denis Mercier:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/...-the-world-air-chief-marshal-denis-mercier-2/
I am personally convinced that the Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world.

Air Marshal SB Deo:
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...alth-fighter-rafale-indian-air-force-3737350/
Chinese J-20 stealth fighter not cause for concern, Rafale too has stealth features: Air Marshal

No other 4th gen aircraft has been advertised using the word "stealth", only Rafale.

Rafale has superior aerodynamics, superior payload, superior range than the F-35, but has similar stealth and avionics. So Rafale is naturally a better aircraft.

India is investing in FGFA because it will be a generation ahead compared to Rafale. :tup:
 
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Rafale is as good as the F-35. Both stealth and avionics.

Dassault CEO Eric Trappier:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...n-ahead-of-F-16-jets/articleshow/54491801.cms
Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F-16.

Air Chief Marshal Denis Mercier:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/...-the-world-air-chief-marshal-denis-mercier-2/
I am personally convinced that the Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world.

Air Marshal SB Deo:
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...alth-fighter-rafale-indian-air-force-3737350/
Chinese J-20 stealth fighter not cause for concern, Rafale too has stealth features: Air Marshal

No other 4th gen aircraft has been advertised using the word "stealth", only Rafale.

Rafale has superior aerodynamics, superior payload, superior range than the F-35, but has similar stealth and avionics. So Rafale is naturally a better aircraft.

India is investing in FGFA because it will be a generation ahead compared to Rafale. :tup:
Again you have laughing stock @randomradio :lol::rofl: random Indian newspaper links:hitwall::crazy::blah::blah: i have to from neutral/respected links like Jane's, flight global, aviation weekly, that saying that it will on par with F-35 stealth and avionics wise but i know your/Indian mentality when its to in the hand IAF it will become invincible/out of this universe jet, then you called it all other 5th gen jets are useless in the front of RAFALE, you have too much Indian superiority ego Mr @randomradio :lol::rofl::sarcastic::suicide::suicide2:
Gay shupa dupa powa Hind @randomradio :enjoy:
 
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Again you have laughing stock @randomradio :lol::rofl: random Indian newspaper links:hitwall::crazy::blah::blah: i have to from neutral/respected links like Jane's, flight global, aviation weekly, that saying that it will on par with F-35 stealth and avionics wise but i know your/Indian mentality when its to in the hand IAF it will become invincible/out of this universe jet, then you called it all other 5th gen jets are useless in the front of RAFALE, you have too much Indian superiority ego Mr @randomradio :lol::rofl::sarcastic::suicide::suicide2:
Gay shupa dupa powa Hind @randomradio :enjoy:

:lol:

So an Air Chief, an Air Marshal and a CEO are not sources.

Your insecurity is so apparent.
 
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@gambit, any comment on this retarded randomoradio guy? if he were a Chinese you'd be "educating" him like no tomorrow``:lol:
 
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This is how the F-35 looks like in reality.
And the F-22.

Yes, and look at all the tape and paste treatment on all the joints! They look like cardboard airplanes with all that composite and taping. Outstanding. We haven't seen this stage for the PAK-FA yet. I can't imagine they won't treat the bazilion riveted joints on that aircraft with some taping like the US jets.

And if you go closer towards the F-22:

There are some access panels that need to be got at on a regular basis as part of pre & post-flight inspections, along with other critical parts of the aircraft that the crew have to get to. Gas port, gun amo port, grounding and electrical connection etc. So there will be some that just have to keep their screws exposed like the one in your picture. No-brainer, especially on the larger panels that can't be made with pop-in & pop-out locking mechanism. All the other permanent panels that are riveted are seamless and you can't see them whatsoever. Some of the panels on the F-35 are even rivetless! They either press them together or connect then in some other way but the process and workmanship is impeccable. We need to see that in the PAK-FA before we give it any accolades on stealthiness, and we haven't.

Otoh, PAK FA is either not painted or is painted using light colours like blue.

The only thing going for it in this respect is that they haven't gotten to any RAM applications yet. So we don't know how they will treat all those riveted panel joints. But the shaping is still worrisome compared to the F-22 and F-35 and even the J-20. If you look at the Chinese bird, they've addressed the panels and RAM aspect in excellent ways, just like the Americans. We have seen nothing from the Russians yet.

Credit the Chinese BIG-TIME for what they've created with this absolute beauty. Look at the panel connetions application. Flawless.

Click on both images to enlarge and take a look at the exquisite quality of the panels prior to even painting! It's unbelievable.

1-jpg.447591


Even the weapon's bay gaps are MUCH tighter on the J-20 than the PAK-FA.
AND, flat belly just like the F-22 and F-35. Why is the PAK-FA ignoring that most critical design aspect?

j-20a-20171226-jpg.444945


Look at all the saw-tooth edging they've painstakingly put into every single joint on the BACK of this monster!
They've even saw-toothed the trailing edges of the flight surfaces. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are making this application. Nothing close to anything like this that we've been able to see on any of the 11 PAK-FAs to date and the Chines have only 6 of these J-20s! I really don't understand what the Russians are doing.

j-20a-poem-by-yang-wei-2035-jpg.445957


With the finish paint & RAM.

badOl8V.jpg


Those are side bays.

In a pic you posted, you will notice the crease for the door.
Look closely just below the LERX, there is a prominent line there.

Did you even read that that's what I said? Yes you can see some outline of a panel on the fairings so they're obviously for "something," but here's the problem with automatically assuming it's for a missile. The size of the faring is barely enough -- even for an R-73 -- let alone the necessary mechanisms to extend the missile out of the fairing so it can be jettisoned far enough to clear the wing and have its rocket motor fired.

Here's a close-up and I'll get to the circled part in a minute. There's the seam for the fairing panel but it's way too small for a missile and associated, necessary hardware. Never mind hinging mechanisms for the panel itself!

attachment.php


Look at that fairing which is barely big enough for a packed R-73 with completely folded fins and definitely not enough room for an extracting mechanism and panel hinges. If you look at the extraction arms on the F-22 and F-35 weapons bays, there is some substantial amount of hardware that is needed to hold on to those missiles and extend them out to clear the aircraft; far enough from the body, wings and fuselage (similar to a pylon's job) and these fairings don't look like they have anything close to that kind of room. The weapons bays also have large hinges and hydraulic brackets to push open the panel, hold it in place and close it. Nowhere near the room for all that.

The other thing to consider is that those fairings can have a multitude of other functions like I mentioned. They can house sensors, EW equipment etc. Something similar in the Ka-52 we looked into a while back. That helo carries what looks like a weapons pod and there were rumors that it houses a series of small, UAVs that the helo would launch to recon the battlefield ahead of the chopper but we found out that it was neither, and more likely an electronics pod of some sort or even just a toolbox for the pilots.
This is the pod on the left wing of the Ka-52:

upload_2017-8-31_18-22-4-jpeg.422175


Now look at it when it's opened up! All sorts of "stuff" other than weapons.
Those are EW/ECM pods of some sort on the PAK-FA.

upload_2017-7-31_22-55-19-jpeg.415381


Back to that red circle: that's an inlet brace. What do you suppose that will cause when radar waves get into that gap between the intake and the LERX and reach that brace? let's hope and pray that's temporary and will not be on production models.

The same, glaring issue is with the belly of the bird like I've mentioned twice already.
Why do you suppose all these stealthy aircraft (including the F/A-18) have canted vertical stabilizers? I know you already know this so I'm not patronizing you in any way, just trying to make a point. It's specifically to avoid the 90 degree connection at the joints of the tails to the body, basic knowledge. Now look at the belly of the PAK-FA and the joints between the dropped engine runs to the flat, center belly where the weapons bays are. That's a brutal, elongated 90 degree joint. Those radar waves are going to have a field day when they get trapped in that corner and start bouncing around sending back an almost perfect image of the bird! There is nowhere for them to be deflected away (which is the essential function of stealth shaping) and too much material to just use RAM as you also have to consider the temperature factor where the engine nacelles are and how RAM would react to that. This is probably the biggest concern I have about this bird. Is it a spot for plasma? For some SPECTRA-like antennas to help absorb and reshape radar waves? We don't know, but what we know is that specific are of shaping was taken very seriously in the F-22, F-35 and the J-20 but not in the PAK-FA. I would say that's a big problem and nowhere near any level of 6th generation.

As for the radar, the IAF's asked for a "brand new radar which does not exist", so we don't know what that means.

Well, that is a problem because the radar is also a HUGE part of the overall stealth package, and the US has been fielding AESA radars for a lot longer than the Russians who are still trying to produce a viable, AESA production radar. So they're behind US technology levels in that respect which also beats down this notion you have of the PAK-FA being a 6th gen platform.
 
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No, he is as stubborn as the Chinese members here, even when faced with facts.

Oh please. The only one more stubborn than the Chinese would be you.

Just break up all the specs of the PAK FA/FGFA and you will get the answer yourself. Specs never lie, only people do. The PAK FA specs are so far ahead that it's eye-watering.

You, otoh, have never presented facts, only bias. You are simply in denial.
 
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Yes, and look at all the tape and paste treatment on all the joints! They look like cardboard airplanes with all that composite and taping. Outstanding. We haven't seen this stage for the PAK-FA yet. I can't imagine they won't treat the bazilion riveted joints on that aircraft with some taping like the US jets.



There are some access panels that need to be got at on a regular basis as part of pre & post-flight inspections, along with other critical parts of the aircraft that the crew have to get to. Gas port, gun amo port, grounding and electrical connection etc. So there will be some that just have to keep their screws exposed like the one in your picture. No-brainer, especially on the larger panels that can't be made with pop-in & pop-out locking mechanism. All the other permanent panels that are riveted are seamless and you can't see them whatsoever. Some of the panels on the F-35 are even rivetless! They either press them together or connect then in some other way but the process and workmanship is impeccable. We need to see that in the PAK-FA before we give it any accolades on stealthiness, and we haven't.



The only thing going for it in this respect is that they haven't gotten to any RAM applications yet. So we don't know how they will treat all those riveted panel joints. But the shaping is still worrisome compared to the F-22 and F-35 and even the J-20. If you look at the Chinese bird, they've addressed the panels and RAM aspect in excellent ways, just like the Americans. We have seen nothing from the Russians yet.

Credit the Chinese BIG-TIME for what they've created with this absolute beauty. Look at the panel connetions application. Flawless.

Click on both images to enlarge and take a look at the exquisite quality of the panels prior to even painting! It's unbelievable.

1-jpg.447591


Even the weapon's bay gaps are MUCH tighter on the J-20 than the PAK-FA.
AND, flat belly just like the F-22 and F-35. Why is the PAK-FA ignoring that most critical design aspect?

j-20a-20171226-jpg.444945


Look at all the saw-tooth edging they've painstakingly put into every single joint on the BACK of this monster!
They've even saw-toothed the trailing edges of the flight surfaces. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are making this application. Nothing close to anything like this that we've been able to see on any of the 11 PAK-FAs to date and the Chines have only 6 of these J-20s! I really don't understand what the Russians are doing.

j-20a-poem-by-yang-wei-2035-jpg.445957


With the finish paint & RAM.

badOl8V.jpg

You are relying too much on images that don't mean anything. What matters is the tolerance of the production process. Just because you can't see rivets on images doesn't mean they aren't there. The rivets on the F-22/F-35 and J-20 are as big and as visible as the ones on PAK FA. When you paint over them, it's done, problem solved.

Italian_Pilot_Gear_Pax_River1st_Atlantic_Crossing2_ED.jpg


sdd_f35manfc_001.jpg


F-35_Atail_1st_Atlantic_Crossing_79e0d0f5-07a8-464f.jpg


You simply coat it with multiple layers of paint to get this so-called finish.

What's more important to consider is the fact that the PAK FA is actually made using radar absorbing structures and not just simpler carbon composites and metals. When signals hit the aircraft, the radar signals are absorbed rather than simply deflected.


It's so obvious it opens up, it's a side bay. Let just time prove you wrong.

Back to that red circle: that's an inlet brace. What do you suppose that will cause when radar waves get into that gap between the intake and the LERX and reach that brace? let's hope and pray that's temporary and will not be on production models.

That won't be a problem because it's there as part of the design.

The same, glaring issue is with the belly of the bird like I've mentioned twice already.
Why do you suppose all these stealthy aircraft (including the F/A-18) have canted vertical stabilizers? I know you already know this so I'm not patronizing you in any way, just trying to make a point. It's specifically to avoid the 90 degree connection at the joints of the tails to the body, basic knowledge. Now look at the belly of the PAK-FA and the joints between the dropped engine runs to the flat, center belly where the weapons bays are. That's a brutal, elongated 90 degree joint. Those radar waves are going to have a field day when they get trapped in that corner and start bouncing around sending back an almost perfect image of the bird! There is nowhere for them to be deflected away (which is the essential function of stealth shaping) and too much material to just use RAM as you also have to consider the temperature factor where the engine nacelles are and how RAM would react to that. This is probably the biggest concern I have about this bird. Is it a spot for plasma? For some SPECTRA-like antennas to help absorb and reshape radar waves? We don't know, but what we know is that specific are of shaping was taken very seriously in the F-22, F-35 and the J-20 but not in the PAK-FA. I would say that's a big problem and nowhere near any level of 6th generation.

You can't generalize in such simple terms. Designs are validated using large facilities like anechoic chambers and radar ranges, not on hunches on opinions.

Well, that is a problem because the radar is also a HUGE part of the overall stealth package, and the US has been fielding AESA radars for a lot longer than the Russians who are still trying to produce a viable, AESA production radar. So they're behind US technology levels in that respect which also beats down this notion you have of the PAK-FA being a 6th gen platform.

The Russians have been fielding ESA radars much longer than the Americans. Remember the Mig-31? Followed by the Su-30MKI, then Su-35. They may be PESA, but they are still ESA radars. They have already developed a whole lot of AESA radars, at least 3, they are simply unable to find buyers because their buyers can't afford it in the numbers that would make its production feasible. The first non-PAK FA AESA will be fielded on either the Su-30MKI first or the Mig-35, both dependent on either a large Indian or Russian order.

The stuff being flight tested on PAK FA today is still undergoing development for the F-22 for its MLU in the mid 2020s. And there's still stuff present on the PAK FA today that is not even present on the F-35, like DIRCM and UV detectors. But it's really the new engine that's going to be a game changer.
 
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Oh please. The only one more stubborn than the Chinese would be you.

Just break up all the specs of the PAK FA/FGFA and you will get the answer yourself. Specs never lie, only people do. The PAK FA specs are so far ahead that it's eye-watering.

You, otoh, have never presented facts, only bias. You are simply in denial.
And you're not Eye watering:blah::blah: you brain dead @randomradio you are also living wet dream fantasy land fairy tails saying PAK FA/FGFA gen ahead from all other 5th gen jets:crazy: tell Russian that first complete worst 5th gen jet on time (2023-2025) then you consider 6th gen jet:lol::rofl::enjoy: you have full stubbornness you no technical know how and just bashing with no clue, you retard head @randomradio :hitwall::crazy: you stubborn @randomradio :blah::blah::blah:
 
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