PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[blain2]

Not only canards, it does not have TVC engines, PESA radar, avionics, jammers, cockpit.

So the Chinese not only don't have engines on their aircraft, they also fly them blind due to a lack of avionics, jammers and cockpit. It makes me wonder why the PLAAF did not buy full size mock-ups of a Su-30 airframe instead of spending close to $30M per copy of the MKK...

The reality is that Chinese are flying a fairly potent platform in the form of the MKK. It does not have TVC, but same physical characteristics (things one would need to see on their AI radars to detect etc) as the MKI. They employ the same weapon systems as the MKI and have similar range and payload capability as the MKI.

 

[blain2]

Firstly , even the MKI carries HOB missiles while equipped with the Sura HMS.

Secondly, TVC has benefits not just for air combat. Other benefits include reduced take off and landing distance, reduces the fuel consumption of the aircraft due to the lower thrust requirement, which in turn increases the aircrafts flight range. TVC provides engine-based flight control. The benefits of reduced dependence on a rear tail are reduced drag, reduced aircraft weight, and less radar cross section. There's lots more, I am googling this too.

Leading to more wear and tear and reduced engine life and smaller MTBO etc.

TVC technology is good for certain scenarios, however surviving 5th gen WVRAAM is not an easy task even for a TVC equipped aircraft.

The benefits of reduced dependence on a rear tail are reduced drag, reduced aircraft weight, and less radar cross section.

So all of the above reductions in dependence on other control surfaces are achieved at the cost of putting considerable wear on the engine and having a pretty complex propulsion system with more parts that can break than other conventional engines. While from an RCS reduction standpoint you would be right had this capability been incorporated into a smaller airframe, however the Su-30 is a huge aircraft and the RCS reduction by any means would be marginal.

 

[Storm Force]

bossman

Your comments re Sorties rates being higher for PAF than SU30MKI.

hAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED SANCTIONS AND EMBARGOS on the F16 FLEET AND OTHER AMERICAN WEAPONS DURING THE NEXT INDO PAK WAR.

America is now a major Indian ally those F16 can be compromised by the double dealing yanks

A point raised by many members on this forum.

Unfortunately for both IAF & PAF they are too reliant on overseas suppliers so sortie rates can suffer both sides of the borders. NOBODY IS IMMUNE

 

[Shinigami]

The F-22 was based on requirements back in the 80's..
The YF-23 did not need the TVC at all.. to achieve similar performance..
What TVC gives is the ability to point your nose faster.. and turn tighter..
however.. the new heatseekers combined with HMS.. have taken all this rapid turning out of the equation... which is why the JSF.. which is based on technology(not capabilities) superior to the F-22... has no need for it..
no longer does a pilot need to look through the HUD to target a fighter..
all he has to do is to look at it.. and shoot.
The other possible advantages of TVC would be maneuvering to avoid a missile..however with the newer crop of missiles capable of 50G+ maneuvers.. even that is irrelevant.
TVC offers immense advantages.. especially in WVR.. and slow speed flight.. it is however.. lost its leap due to newer missiles... almost all new missiles incorporate TVC in some form(apart from the ASRAAM)..
todays close combat.. wont be turning and burning..
in most cases.. 4 vs 4.. would lead to one survivor.. or none perhaps.. not a pretty prospect.
The advantage used to be with who could get their nose to bear on the enemy first.. the MKI will.. till the introduction of the FGFA.. always get its nose to bear first.. but that becomes irrelevant.. when the opposing fighter pilot only has to look at the MKI to shoot at it.
With a TVC equipped missile.. using a dual seeker.. even with IR jamming.. the MKI crew would have to be very lucky to survive.

technology has taken the fun out of air combat..

and the MKM.. along with the Su-35 BM.. also have TVC...

you are making the same mistakes as the americans did during the vietnam war (or korean war. dont remember). ie too much reliability on missiles. miisiles were considered the latest tech back then (as bvr is now), some usaf fighters had their guns removed and replaced with missiles. what happened is history. they started getting shot down.

similarly is todays scenario, depending too much on bvr or maybe even in wvr missiles may be a mistake, since in reality most dogfights come down to guns, am i right?

 

[MZUBAIR]

Super falcon.

Our pilots are better than yours

I DONT KNOW where or how this myth started but it is thrown around a lot in here.

Are you basing this on kill ratios from 40 years ago.

OR TODAY.

i KNOW I,LL GET SLAUGHTERED for this but i,ll say it anyway

PILOT SKILL is evolving and EVER CHANGING as new technology arrives.

Force muiltiplers, BVR, tvc engines, exposure to western training ie Red flag and other...s

FLYING HOURS , TIME AND MONEY spent training ie DACT SCHOOLS

IS PAF ahead of IAF in this matter. NOBODY KNOWS and that includes everyone in this forum

Ask Sir MuradK, Ur pilots refused to take off coz they had fear to face PAF in1965 war. When I guess u were no where in this world!!!

 

[Shinigami]

Ask Sir MuradK, Ur pilots refused to take off coz they had fear to face PAF in1965 war. When I guess u were no where in this world!!!

how did he know get that info about indian pilots? was he in IAF? is there any valid source?

 

[Manticore]

sir murad has kills in 65,71 -- he was also the f16 instructor at home and abroad, presently living in the states----- so yes if he said so , i'll take it as he himself is the ''source''

 

[foxbat]

sir murad has kills in 65,71 -- he was also the f16 instructor at home and abroad, presently living in the states----- so yes if he said so , i'll take it as he himself is the ''source''

And the indian pilots called him up to tell him that??

 

[SQ8]

you are making the same mistakes as the americans did during the vietnam war (or korean war. dont remember). ie too much reliability on missiles. miisiles were considered the latest tech back then (as bvr is now), some usaf fighters had their guns removed and replaced with missiles. what happened is history. they started getting shot down.

similarly is todays scenario, depending too much on bvr or maybe even in wvr missiles may be a mistake, since in reality most dogfights come down to guns, am i right?

The Americans laid too much faith on an unproven technology.. since then.. A2A missiles have accounted for 80% of the kills in aerial warfare..
Trust the figures.. missiles are here to stay.. till somebody comes up with lasers..

 

[SQ8]

Before this deteriorates into another 65 and 71 airwar.. which incidentally has been discussed in detail before.
I would suggest you consider that both sides had a mixture of good and timid pilots..
Multiple accounts exist in the "Indo Pak air war of 65" by Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra regarding IAf pilots scared of getting into air combat.
in 65.. the IAF lacked a cohesive structure.. it was disorganized.. and in my opinion.. badly led.
Ridiculous mistakes were made...which took its numerical advantage to zero..
and while the PAF too made absurd mistakes contrary to the war plans..
It was led better.. and fought better.

When the IAF returned in 71.. in just 6 years.. it had taken its performance in 65 akin to a rag tag flying club.. into an extremely potent airforce.
All those Pakistani's in the delusion that the IAF that had pilots backing off due to a little rain in 65.. will be what they will encounter today.
Today's IAF pilot shows initiative, aggression.. and has the equipment to match it. They are led by the finest of the crop.. and have a sound doctrine.
If in any future conflict.. the PAF bungles up its plans as in 65.. it will be beaten to oblivion.

 

[Silk]

Any fighter force that thinks it it gets a free lunch will have a cold shower.

 

[blain2]

Before this deteriorates into another 65 and 71 airwar.. which incidentally has been discussed in detail before.
I would suggest you consider that both sides had a mixture of good and timid pilots..
Multiple accounts exist in the "Indo Pak air war of 65" by Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra regarding IAf pilots scared of getting into air combat.
in 65.. the IAF lacked a cohesive structure.. it was disorganized.. and in my opinion.. badly led.
Ridiculous mistakes were made...which took its numerical advantage to zero..
and while the PAF too made absurd mistakes contrary to the war plans..
It was led better.. and fought better.

When the IAF returned in 71.. in just 6 years.. it had taken its performance in 65 akin to a rag tag flying club.. into an extremely potent airforce.
All those Pakistani's in the delusion that the IAF that had pilots backing off due to a little rain in 65.. will be what they will encounter today.
Today's IAF pilot shows initiative, aggression.. and has the equipment to match it. They are led by the finest of the crop.. and have a sound doctrine.
If in any future conflict.. the PAF bungles up its plans as in 65.. it will be beaten to oblivion.

It is not about bungling up ops Santro. Bottom line is that we are arrayed against an adversary that is twice our size at a minimum so regardless of what we do, mistakes are part of it as no war goes as planned, this quantitative advantage will come to fore at one point or another.

We have other means to hold the Indian superiority in check but they are also problematic in terms of their employment. So one thing that all Pakistanis need to understand is that we are up against the proverbial 800lb gorilla and we try our best to deal with it and if we fail in certain aspects, its expected because the other side has a larger force, resources at its disposal. The goal is to give them a really bloody nose if they try to do something and I think they know that too. In that lies our deterrence. Once a war is on, all bets are off now due to the nuclear overhang, but bungling during wars is to be expected. No one has run a pristine campaign thus far.

They will screw things up, we will do the same, but we should not be dreaming of attaining air superiority over them and they should not be thinking that even with their MKIs and MMRCA, this will be a cake walk in any way.

 

[VelocuR]

بعض ذرائع کا یہ بھی کہنا ہے کہ ایڈمرل مولن کو اس بھارتی ایس۔یو تیس جہاز کی تصاویر بھی دکھائی گئیں جو تمام اسلحے سے لیس پاکستان کے صوبے پنجاب کے مرکز میں واقع فوجی چھاؤنی کھاریاں کے اوپر سے پرواز کر رہا تھا۔

عسکری ذرائع کے مطابق جس جہاز نے بارہ دسمبر کے روز لاہور سیکٹر میں پاکستان کی فضائی حدود کی خلاف ورزی کی تھی اسے پہلے سے منتظر پاکستانی لڑاکا طیاروں نے اپنی ’فائرنگ رینج’ میں لے لیا تھا لیکن مار گرانے سے پہلے دی جانے والی تنبیہ پر اس طیارے نے واپسی کا راستہ اختیار کر لیا تھا۔ اس بھارتی طیارے کو مگ انتیس جہازوں کی ایک ٹکڑی کی پشت پناہی یا بیک اپ سپورٹ بھی حاصل تھی جو بھارتی فضائی حدود سے یہ منظر دیکھ رہے تھے۔

"Some sources have also mentioned that Admiral Mullen was shown the photos of an Indian Su-30, fully loaded with ordnance, flying over the Pakistani province of Punjab.....

According to military sources, the aircraft which violated Pakistani airspace in the Lahore sector on 12 December was locked on, however prior to it being shot down, it was given a warning upon which the aircraft returned. This aircraft was backed up by a flight of Mig-29s who were witnessing this event from within the Indian airspace."

Source



Our respected member retired Air-force Muradk

First the IAF was not expecting such a response from PAF.
I don't think that people of Pakistan or members of this forum thinks pakistan is better than India
F-16 vs a SU is like A mouse running after an elephant, One wrong move from either pilot will be his last.

Indian Member - iamunique

In response to my post on another thread, the member blain2 had pointed out that we Indians consider the MKI as "God's gift to Military Aviation". After reading it I was sceptical and just rubbished the comment. But later on as I read through various posts by indians it has become clear to me that blain2 was right!

That the MKI's image is being blown up like an enormous ego bubble by the IAF, the media and fans is a very dangerous development. Because when the ego bubble bursts the effect will be demoralising and paralysing. I'm just hoping that the pilots who fly the MKI's are not being taken in the hype and are just doing their jobs. If not, God help them & God help India.

The way things are going it looks like the MKI will also follow in Sachin Tendulkar's footsteps. Once we indians hyped Sachin, every other team in the world developed a strategy to counter him and then his magic was gone!

Coming back to the point. The MKI is currently THE huge-gest (note that I've deliberately left out the word 'big') fighter in the subcontinent - 'a virtual elephant in the sky'. So I would say that any Pakistani pilot who cannot lock onto an MKI either on the radar or visually, is either mentally retarded or just plain blind.

Another point is that I feel getting a lock-on is similar to getting a hard-on.... it's just the begining...!

(Mods please delete the last line if offensive)

'Well brother, Su-30MKI is a good plane but it is not invincible. It is built by humans, flown by humans and maintained by humans. It is our strong belief that if anything is created by humans it can be countered by humans. We study our adversary in great detail and have developed different strategies as per situation. Even if we are pitted against stealth fighters like F-22 we would put up a fight. If we have the guts to stand up against the Raptor, and have raised our bars of training at the level of the Raptor, the Indian Su-30 is comparatively much easier to handle."

PAF dogfighted with Raptor F-22 (via Su-30MKI try imagination)

Gen Kayani said in his famour word: ‘Next time, we’ll bring it down’

 

[conworldus]

So the Chinese not only don't have engines on their aircraft, they also fly them blind due to a lack of avionics, jammers and cockpit. It makes me wonder why the PLAAF did not buy full size mock-ups of a Su-30 airframe instead of spending close to $30M per copy of the MKK...

The reality is that Chinese are flying a fairly potent platform in the form of the MKK. It does not have TVC, but same physical characteristics (things one would need to see on their AI radars to detect etc) as the MKI. They employ the same weapon systems as the MKI and have similar range and payload capability as the MKI.

The MKK is a ground/ship attacking aircraft that's it. It can carry many precision weapons, has large payload and has a long combat range. TVC will be a useless for such craft. J-11B and J-10s will be used for air superiority combat.

The MKI although termed as multirole is primarily an air superiority fighter. Its canards are not of original design but a reluctant add on (as it increases radar signature) because its nose is too heavy after adding all the newer avionics and radar. The MKI canards are fixed unlike J-10, J-20, Typhoon, etc. The fixed canards does not provide increased maneuverability, but simply adds lift to the nose. India is seeking Russian help to make the MKI more capable at ground attacking. Don't know how the project is going.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The MKK is a ground/ship attacking aircraft that's it. It can carry many precision weapons, has large payload and has a long combat range. TVC will be a useless for such craft. J-11B and J-10s will be used for air superiority combat.

The MKI although termed as multirole is primarily an air superiority fighter. Its canards are not of original design but a reluctant add on (as it increases radar signature) because its nose is too heavy after adding all the newer avionics and radar. The MKI canards are fixed unlike J-10, J-20, Typhoon, etc. The fixed canards does not provide increased maneuverability, but simply adds lift to the nose. India is seeking Russian help to make the MKI more capable at ground attacking. Don't know how the project is going.

All your credibility has just evaporated, the MKI's canards are completely movable otherwise what's the point? Critising for criticising sake.