Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[ajtr]

"An Army of Dogs led by a Lion will fight like Lions and an Army of Lions led by a Dog will Die a Dog's Death" - New Version!

Pack of dogs always hunt down the lion.do add this to ur sig also.

****........10 Indian posts to every Pakistani post, don't you guys have anything better to do then to sit around making stories and defending them all day long?

we are the 10 paise army of india

 

[karan.1970]

what's with this dude Maverick's (with incorrect spellings or a bad keyboard) fascination with the sexual analogies of violent kind ?? I just hope this has nothing to do with any personal experiences..

Dude, when you glorify words like R*pe by using them in context of military battles, you are acting like a MCP, demeaning half this world's population which includes quite a few members on this forum..

Debating passionately is fine, but stay within the realms of decency, despite whatever frustration is building up inside you..

 

[Joe Shearer]

American i can understand as at that time india-usa ties were getting better with jaswant singh and strobe-talbott were seriously ironing out indo-usa friendship dialogue for 1st time in since 1947.

Thats the same theory najam sethi said on his talk show.but i'm still unable to presume why would china under deng will help india in 1999??If one goes by this theory then its the 2nd time chinese would have helped indians in war against pakistan.First was during 1971 when even after being pushed and encouraged by nixon administration and herny Kissinger chinese did not attack from north to reduce pressure on east pakistan.even chinese intervention from north gen.niazi was desperately waiting for.

Really its very difficult to understand chinese ...Why did they help india (their enemy) against their freiend pakistan in war.
Many a time even many commentators from pakistan have pointed this out.If one goes by the chinese theory then one is not far off from the mark in saying that...

china's help to pakistan against india is just empty sloganeering........................


In that case threads like this are not mere propaganda they do hold some water and shred of truth..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...pakistan-relations-really-not-good-shown.html

I have been nursing a heretical thought for some time that China is not as hostile to India as Indians seem to think. In practical terms, on the ground, they have displayed no overt hostility. Their patrols and our patrols march out and traverse overlapping routes and carefully stay out of each other's way. Their business relations with India certainly do not lack enthusiasm. Their peccadilloes - separate visas on separate sheets of paper, and the like - are sporadic acts of pressure to remind us of their claims, prevent any speculation about their having lost interest, and intended to keep us off balance - but nothing more.

Why are we looking for ways in which to be insulted, instead of building on what is already there?

None of that. That was ARC that bagged it. This was in the pre-NTRO days.

That certainly makes sense.

 

[Nelson]

He he he he

Pakistan army did not accept their own soldiers' dead bodies. What a great respect given to their soldiers!

All this was just to avoid humiliation of defeat at the hands of India. lol

 

[kumarkumar1867]

You can cry louder and speak as much nonsense as you want about Pakistan army disown their own soldiers but If you ask the opinions of soldiers then they are proud and feel it honour to die for their mother land and their families are also willing to sacrifices their son for this land.

Yes very true...No one doubts Pakistani Soldiers. I was india which was praising the bravery of Colonel Sher Khan long before Pakistan accepted PA's participation in Kargil & any gallantry awards given to PA soldiers.

Its not what the soldier & their family feels its about what their nation use them for?? If precious lives of soldiers are being used in futile missions with zero planning of serious re-strike by enemy then the country must be blamed for sure.

Shaheed or Martyr from every country does supreme sacrifice for their country with should be respected even by enemies.

It must be really hurtful when your own army, own government & occassionally your own countrymen disowns you despite of adverseries, wounds & death you face on battle field.

Pakistani soldiers don't need your sympathies and crocodile tears

We dont need your permission for feeling sympathy of poor soldiers who remained unnamed unthanked for their bravery & who couldnt see their siblings, parents & childrens again after Kargil.

No Indian is against PA soldiers except on battlefield we are mostly against Jackals/Hynaes which leads them to misfortunate futile deaths & back stabbing government which uses them as a scapegoat.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

American i can understand as at that time india-usa ties were getting better with jaswant singh and strobe-talbott were seriously ironing out indo-usa friendship dialogue for 1st time in since 1947.

Thats the same theory najam sethi said on his talk show.but i'm still unable to presume why would china under deng will help india in 1999??If one goes by this theory then its the 2nd time chinese would have helped indians in war against pakistan.First was during 1971 when even after being pushed and encouraged by nixon administration and herny Kissinger chinese did not attack from north to reduce pressure on east pakistan.even chinese intervention from north gen.niazi was desperately waiting for.

Really its very difficult to understand chinese ...Why did they help india (their enemy) against their freiend pakistan in war.
Many a time even many commentators from pakistan have pointed this out.If one goes by the chinese theory then one is not far off from the mark in saying that...

china's help to pakistan against india is just empty sloganeering........................


In that case threads like this are not mere propaganda they do hold some water and shred of truth..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...pakistan-relations-really-not-good-shown.html

@ajtr

Without going into any jingoistic paroxysms, let me explain what seems to be an 'unusual phenomenon'.

It has a great deal to with the essential Chinese psyche. The Chinese mind is most comfortable in an orderly world (even one that is perceived to be so). Even if that orderly world is one that is created by decree. Consequently it abhors what is (or can be) considered to be plainly disorderly (or indisciplined). Most of the actions (or misadventures) that Pakistan has indulged in from time to time can plainly be described as such. That has perpetually confused, baffled and bemused the Chinese. Hence they have been loath to buy into these activities and extend 'blank checks' so to speak. Even in the economic travails that have hit Pakistan, the Chinese have been extremely circumspect to extend unconditional favors or aid of any kind.

Believe you me, the Chinese are supreme realists. Where other peoples interests are concerned, they are reticent when it comes to 'walking the talk'. Even more so when they perceive the other person (ally, friend or whatever) to be reckless or indisciplined in any manner.

They will never throw in 'good money after bad'.

The Americans are way different from that. But politics does make for strange bed-fellows!

 

[Mav3rick]

Given the advantageous positions that pak troops occupied in kargil, they lost more troops to the harsh weather than to Indian bullets.

It was winter at its peak and thats the reason why Indian army withdrew (as it does in every season)...paksiatn withdraws too but that year musharraf wanted to play games with Vajpayee and Sharif but poor fellow, nothing could he achieve and in the process lost 3000 troops of his Northern light infantry.

Pakistan lost around 360 soldiers in Kargil and majority of those were martyred when they were in retreat after ceasefire.

It was designed to be a hideous shock to India but it was Pakistan that got hideously shocked in the end.

Then how come India could still not recover from that shock even in 01/02 when you unilaterally withdrew from the borders at the sight of Pakistani Army?

It does not matter, which army lost how many soldiers..in a war ..all that matters is achieving the designated objective.

Pakistan's objective in the war, was to occupy the kargil peaks, cut off Indian supply route to Siachen and occupy Siachen later point of time.

Indian objective was to prevent Pakistan from cutting off NH1, save Siachen and clear the Kargil peaks of Pakistani infiltrators.

Final tally as it stands today is..

Siachen is with India.

NH1 and supply route to remains intact ..Pakistani are no position to threaten the supplies, infact another supply route Srinagar - Jammu ,and 592m long bridge over river Ravi is progress.

India regained 99% of the peaks occupied by Pakistanis.

India achieved 99% of its objectives. Pakistan lost 99% of it objectives.

And how many times will we agree that India achieved her objectives, albeit diplomatically. But point 5353 is still with Pakistan and it gives an excellent view for surveillance and for precision artillary strikes, if needed.

Pakistani Estimates:
Strength 5,000
453 was killed
665+ wounded

.... Does this includes the soldiers we buried?.. i mean the brave one's disowned by your Army?[/QUOTE]

You never really buried any Pakistani soldier, the burials that you are told about is actually of the Kashmiris that you military executes in fake encounters and perhaps even your own soldiers as you were running short of coffins.

 

[ashokdeiva]

Pakistan lost around 360 soldiers in Kargil and majority of those were martyred when they were in retreat after ceasefire.



Then how come India could still not recover from that shock even in 01/02 when you unilaterally withdrew from the borders at the sight of Pakistani Army?



And how many times will we agree that India achieved her objectives, albeit diplomatically. But point 5353 is still with Pakistan and it gives an excellent view for surveillance and for precision artillary strikes, if needed.

.... Does this includes the soldiers we buried?.. i mean the brave one's disowned by your Army?

You never really buried any Pakistani soldier, the burials that you are told about is actually of the Kashmiris that you military executes in fake encounters and perhaps even your own soldiers as you were running short of coffins.

ya ya PAKISTANI ARMY is all mighty and OUR ARMY is not worth your jucie.
what the crap are you talking man. You guys lost the war that is the cold truth. we are not over whelmed by each of the victories we had in the past. we just want to avoid another battle and another masacare of both IA and PA soldiers just to satisfy the egos of the PA generals who have so far designed the confrontations we have had in the past. and that is the reason we have not initiated any of the battle we have had in the past.
I hope you understand what i mean.

 

[Mav3rick]

Dude you are one hell of a frustrated guy.
You came to conquer Kargill. You didn't get it. Thats the jist. And you army is not so innocent. It would never had withdrawn unless it knew it coudn't hold it. They ran after they knew they were overrun.

That's pure BS and you know it, we withdrew because we lost international political & diplomatic support, we lost precisely what we wanted, international diplomatic support for Kashmir cause.

Diplomatic victory after military defeat is what Pakistan got in 1972. When we release 93000 Pakistani soldiers (who had surrendered to our army) unconditionally.
That's it. Now keep crying and consoling yourself.

And that's just a small hint of propaganda that your Government spreads, of the 93k pow's over 1/3rd were non-military. And even those soldiers did not surrender, they merely obeyed the orders that they received and that was to seek Indian protection as Mukti Bahini were running a carnage campaign killing all Pakistanis alike. What was the point of continuation of fight in Bangladesh when the whole country was against us.

After 10 years i ve still have doubts about those taped telephone conversation of Gen.Musharraf speakingto his commanders in pakistan..
1. was is chinese Intelligence which recorded it and passed onto indians(As per najam sethi in one of his kargil talk show program)
2.Was it Israeli mossad?(some sources points to israeli intelligence help here)
3.Was it RAW (as per indian sources).if it was RAW i must say they have pretty good sigint.
4.was it usa.(as per strobe talbott)

There are still doubts about the origination of those tapes actually who did it and why?

Who really cares who doctored tapes?

 

[Mav3rick]

1. Err - you didn't seem so keen to let it go of the "oh-so-far" East Pakistan in December 1971. You signed a document - it was called "Treaty of Surrender". And you surrendered to India. 91,000 of your "bravest" troops who took great pleasure in raping and mass murdering your own citizenry - instead of fighting on till the last man as "Tiger" Niazi had promised decided - "Hey - this time our opponents have guns - where's the fun in that? Let's surrender!" More than a rape sounds like self-hijrafication.

Actually, although India may hold the treaty and that it was signed with India, who holds the land that we surrendered? India??? No it does not, so India was just a ***** that was unleashed by clever Bengalis. You like being a *****?

2. 1965 - LOL. Read neutral accounts. It was not India which was running out of ammo, it was Pakistan. This is because you were not only violating the Ceasefire Line in Kashmir, but were also violating CENTO and SEATO terms by using weapons donated to you by the Americans. Yea, and your Army is really well known to listen to its civilian leadership that they pulled back! Except, Ayub Khan was not a civilian leader of Pakistan, he was a self-crowned Field Marshal. If you are going to blow smoke, at least back it up with facts.

Read neutral accounts when it was Indian Army Chief who personally informed the Indian Prime Minister that his forces had exhausted almost all ammunition? Be it our Military or our Civilian Government, both crumble infront of the western masters, Military albeit with some resistance. Similarly Yahya caved to US pressure. Big surprise!

3. Siachen - The whole area was unoccupied and India was fine with the status quo until Pakistan in its infinite wisdom starting giving visas and conducting expeditions to an unoccupied area which was never really demarcated. Comparing that to Kargil where you invaded demarcated territory and violated the Shimla agreement is downright laughable.

Sending in tourists was against any agreement? It was not as if we were building up Military bases there. Toothless argument from your end, really.

4. Mauling in Kargil? Hahahaha - Your Prime Minister running like a slave to Bill Clinton asking him to intervene and stop the Indians was a mauling to Indians how? That summer of 1999 - it was not just Monica Lewinsky who was on her knees in front of Clinton; it was Prime Minister of Pakistan too...

Actually, the Prime Minister was 'summoned' to Washington by his masters to force a withdrawal as 4k fighters were proving to be too much for Indian military. Similarly in 01/02, not too far from '99, you withdrew after making so many tall claims of invasion and surgical strikes etc. It's obvious that your military had still not recovered from the mauling they received in '99.

 

[modern_newton]

Guys lets read what their general is talking about and he is the one who actually fought war unlike these internet indian key boards soldiers

http://www.ndtv.com/article/view/india/28718?device=mobile

A General who led the Indian

actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war. (Watch: Kargil war ended on our terms: Gen VP Malik)

 

[modern_newton]

Video of that indian general

[video] Not convinced we won Kargil Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV - YouTube[/video]

 

[Mav3rick]

What Lofty Thoughts.

Eventually, the lack of a proper familial upbringing must surface. And it did.

Personal attacks again.....you guys must be running out of Kargil stories!

ya ya PAKISTANI ARMY is all mighty and OUR ARMY is not worth your jucie.
what the crap are you talking man. You guys lost the war that is the cold truth. we are not over whelmed by each of the victories we had in the past. we just want to avoid another battle and another masacare of both IA and PA soldiers just to satisfy the egos of the PA generals who have so far designed the confrontations we have had in the past. and that is the reason we have not initiated any of the battle we have had in the past.
I hope you understand what i mean.

You really think you did not sow the seeds of hate when you invaded Kashmir in '48 on some lies of succession to India by the raja, proof of which was never produced?

 

[ajtr]

@ajtr

Without going into any jingoistic paroxysms, let me explain what seems to be an 'unusual phenomenon'.

It has a great deal to with the essential Chinese psyche. The Chinese mind is most comfortable in an orderly world (even one that is perceived to be so). Even if that orderly world is one that is created by decree. Consequently it abhors what is (or can be) considered to be plainly disorderly (or indisciplined). Most of the actions (or misadventures) that Pakistan has indulged in from time to time can plainly be described as such. That has perpetually confused, baffled and bemused the Chinese. Hence they have been loath to buy into these activities and extend 'blank checks' so to speak. Even in the economic travails that have hit Pakistan, the Chinese have been extremely circumspect to extend unconditional favors or aid of any kind.

Believe you me, the Chinese are supreme realists. Where other peoples interests are concerned, they are reticent when it comes to 'walking the talk'. Even more so when they perceive the other person (ally, friend or whatever) to be reckless or indisciplined in any manner.

They will never throw in 'good money after bad'.

The Americans are way different from that. But politics does make for strange bed-fellows!

i'm cross posting ur post in this thread with ur permisson.

 

[kumarkumar1867]

That's usually what the cow says after a good job by the bull. Literally, what else is left to say. By the way example after example does not change the fact that at the end of the day the same dog does to the ***** what the bull does to the cow .

Thanks for all these useful information you shared about your past life & family members here.

I am thankful that you took few minutes of your precious time to come out Animal Kingdom you belong to reply my post.

I will be highly obliged if you keep sh*tting in your zoo & dont reply to my post from here onwards.

I know your kind & innocent nature that you will not bother of your animal needs & try to attach yourself with humans on this forum. I encourage you to do so, but please refrain to reply my post or you will be sent to zoo of my ignore list which is best places for animals like you.

Thank You & Good Bye!