Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[Agnostic_Indian]

To believe there will never be another Kargil like event is to believe and have faith in the ego and greed of powerful men. For it is not the Pakistani people who have any interest in waging a war against India...a common man has far bigger problems, of mere survival, than the conquering of the world.

The misadventures that we seem to take every decade and a half has much more to do with the politicized nature of the Pakistani armed forces. Soon after the founding of the nation, the army took on a mythical status, not because of its exploits, but the first of the military dictators had staked his claim on the nation. Pakistanis saw the armed forces as the only defense against an aggressive and unpredictable India...in reality, that more accurately portrayed the Pakistani side. Military glory was the only way these generals could gain power and hold onto it...well if not really glory, then one feigned through propaganda. War became a crucial part of the "election campaign", for no man or woman would pick a general to fix fiscal policy and social issues...they were a necessity due to the constant threat of war. Were the threat to disappear, what reason would there be for an all powerful military?

As long as Pakistan functions under the rules set forth in the 1950s, aggressive military actions will always be a very real possibility...every ambitious new military leader will first look to carve his place in Pakistani lore, legitimizing his eventual reign. Thankfully for him, history has proven, only a war has to be undertaken (planning optional), the details of which can be manipulated to make the relevant leader seem like the second coming of Alexander the Great...a glory created from the blood of brave young men who would die defending, not Pakistan's honor, but the misguided ambition of their military leaders.

That is not to say all military leaders are of the same ilk. But unfortunately due to the formidable framework already set forth by the army and then cultivated over decades, it only takes one man every couple of decades; one man with ambition and greed...everything else easily falls into place.

I am sure you are on RAW PAYROLL...

On a serious note : I appreciative you being honest and having the courage to speak against the " holly cow ". I wish posts like yours will open the eyes of many Pakistanis who believe civilian govt is all evil and corrupt and army is the true savior .. I guess truth is somewhere between this.

 

[Rafi]

Regardless of some Pakistani sellouts india is the eternal enemy, an undeniable fact, as the train loads of raped and massacred civilians that arrived in Lahore train station.

General Pal says india did not win, his opinion is the most objective, as he was responsible for all the military operations on the indian side, and regarding the PA haters, even after all is said and done, recent Polls by international reputable surveys have given them approval rating in the 80% bracket.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Regardless of some Pakistani sellouts india is the eternal enemy, an undeniable fact, as the train loads of raped and massacred civilians that arrived in Lahore train station.

General Pal says india did not win, his opinion is the most objective, as he was responsible for all the military operations on the indian side, and regarding the PA haters, even after all is said and done, recent Polls by international reputable surveys have given them approval rating in the 80% bracket.

An earnest recommendation.

For a few hours, stop posting. Read Goldsmith's The Deserted Village. Pay special attention to the character and habits of the schoolmaster. Laugh at him. Look in the mirror. Return to posting.

 

[ajtr]

Isit me oly or does everyone notice it that Pfpilot sounds more likeAir Commodore Kaiser Tufail

 

[RazPaK]

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Isit me oly or does everyone notice it that Pfpilot sounds more likeAir Commodore Kaiser Tufail

Difficult to identify with such precision, but obviously a fauji, obviously a senior, and someone who's been there, done that. His ability to get to the core of an issue and strip away the verbiage is awesome.

A fauji has distinct characteristics. They are usually implacably determined to defend their country, and to win. That comes through, but with marvelous restraint. Abusing the enemy is not part of the job, and they never lose their dignity. And they have low levels of tolerance for bullshit.

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

I hope so too.

And I hope you are a combatant. Not one of those keen to fight to the last man, so long as it's someone else. Not as an armchair aviator, a coffee-house commander.

 

[Mav3rick]

Regardless of some Pakistani sellouts india is the eternal enemy, an undeniable fact, as the train loads of raped and massacred civilians that arrived in Lahore train station.

General Pal says india did not win, his opinion is the most objective, as he was responsible for all the military operations on the indian side, and regarding the PA haters, even after all is said and done, recent Polls by international reputable surveys have given them approval rating in the 80% bracket.

You know what the problem is with propagation of information? Stories and myths may hold more strength and may easily overburden the truth with propaganda, I mean 7-8 Indians per Pakistani, the odds of misinformation is so heavily in their favour that it's almost pointless to argue. Better to show them with actions than words.

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

Very sad indeed, and on top of that they call themselves Pakistanis. Perhaps the Admins/Owners of the website should take into consideration some of the posts of our very own moderators and decide accordingly. I would much rather have blind patriotism externally then objective criticism based on one's own point of view.

Should we expose our internal unrest or dislike for the Army or some of the actions of the Army to the whole world even if that means bashing the army with the words of known anti army politicians, especially when the truth is so obviously contrary to the politicians claims that even the enemy does not agree to them (eg. martyrdom of 4k soldiers that NS claims where as India puts the number at 1k or thereabouts)??

Shouldn't some things be kept internal especially things that matter in our national security? Should we propagate lies just to satisfy our own personal egos? And above all, should such views be allowed, especially by senior mods, on a Pakistani Defence Website???

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

This you what tried from last 50 years and end up loosing bangladesh, and this tie if india mind become insane then you end up loosing pak into 3 countries.....PAK only talk while india always do action on ground.... if you shoot , shoot it .....or else someone else.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You know what the problem is with propagation of information? Stories and myths may hold more strength and may easily overburden the truth with propaganda, I mean 7-8 Indians per Pakistani, the odds of misinformation is so heavily in their favour that it's almost pointless to argue. Better to show them with actions than words.

You've got the bull by the balls, to use your own style of language.

7-8 stupid, jingoistic pseudo-Pakistanis per informed, sober, realistic Pakistani, the certainty of misinformation is so heavily in favour of the jingoes that it is pointless to argue.

These are the phonies who depend on the actions of others to fill themselves from time to time with hot air.

It is such a droll spectacle to see fanboys squirming after they have been skewered by their own experts and knowledgeable elements.

 

[Mav3rick]

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

Perhaps your desired actions are correct but the timing cannot be worse. The west has exploited us time and again and refused to come to our aid when we needed them the most. The US should have helped us with the unrest in west Pakistan, even if that meant rebuking our top leadership for atrocities that we were engaged in. If the US had interfered in time in 1971, we might have been able to figure out how to deal with the disgruntled west Pakistan.

Similarly, the best time to attack India would have been a time when the US was engaged in Afghanistan as they already had all the resources available to interfere or to support us with and they were dependent on us. Our support should have been conditional, you help us and we help you. Atleast we should have guaranteed diplomatic support to veto any Russian involvement or protection from any sanctions or embargoes and diplomatic support for Kashmir cause throughout the world in our favour. And we would have taken care of the rest.

You've got the bull by the balls, to use your own style of language.

7-8 stupid, jingoistic pseudo-Pakistanis per informed, sober, realistic Pakistani, the certainty of misinformation is so heavily in favour of the jingoes that it is pointless to argue.

These are the phonies who depend on the actions of others to fill themselves from time to time with hot air.

It is such a droll spectacle to see fanboys squirming after they have been skewered by their own experts and knowledgeable elements.

Typical Indian response, copy the comments of a Pakistani and replace the key words. Neither creative, nor smart. To burst your bubble, as early as 2001/02 when Pakistan was perhaps the weakest, India amassed 700-800k strong military and deployed Air Force to forward bases while Indian Navy was ready to provide a blockade of Karachi again........and what happened? The bubble burst and air, either hot or cold, was released.

Always big words and no actions from big mouth.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Perhaps your desired actions are correct but the timing cannot be worse. The west has exploited us time and again and refused to come to our aid when we needed them the most. The US should have helped us with the unrest in west Pakistan, even if that meant rebuking our top leadership for atrocities that we were engaged in. If the US had interfered in time in 1971, we might have been able to figure out how to deal with the disgruntled west Pakistan.

Similarly, the best time to attack India would have been a time when the US was engaged in Afghanistan as they already had all the resources available to interfere or to support us with and they were dependent on us. Our support should have been conditional, you help us and we help you.



Typical Indian response, copy the comments of a Pakistani and replace the key words. Neither creative, nor smart. To burst your bubble, as early as 2001/02 when Pakistan was perhaps the weakest, India amassed 700-800k strong military and deployed Air Force to forward bases while Indian Navy was ready to provide a blockade of Karachi again........and what happened? The bubble burst and air, either hot or cold, was released.

Always big words and no actions from big mouth.

Errrm, the idea is not to be "creative", or "smart". I get my jollies in other places, other ways.

Action when taken is permanent, lasting and memorable. Those actions demonstrate creativity and smartness. You may consult your elders and betters for examples.

 

[clmeta]

Why wait for the pullout?
Go ahead.

I hope after nato pullout we attack the indians again. I have full faith in our military. Funny how for a Pakistan defence website all some do is bash our armed forces. And for what? To appease indians. What a ghulam mentality.

Dude Pakistan was the aggressor.
It had to return empty handed.
Yes, if Nawaz Sharif hadn't got external help from Clinton, Pakistan was sure to have faced another 1971.

We all know india is the eternal enemy, NS will learn that soon enough, and general pal says india did not win the war.

Nawaz was kept in the dark when the operation was planned. But he was brought in the frame when defeat was imminent. He saved PA from a huge humiliation of 1971 proportions.

How so?

Nawaz was kept totally in the dark. He had no idea that Kargil was happening. This was a pure military operation in absolute secrecy and the Prime Minister was kept totally out of the loop.

Musharraf was the Battlefield commander who planned the Kargil incursion.

I will take his word on the casualties than someone who had no idea what is going on like Nawaz Sharif.

Its like Napolean telling how many men he lost in a Battle and yet you are relying on some stooge in Paris who is far away from battle reporting on battlefield losses designed to discredit Napolean.

 

[ajtr]

Difficult to identify with such precision, but obviously a fauji, obviously a senior, and someone who's been there, done that. His ability to get to the core of an issue and strip away the verbiage is awesome.

A fauji has distinct characteristics. They are usually implacably determined to defend their country, and to win. That comes through, but with marvelous restraint. Abusing the enemy is not part of the job, and they never lose their dignity. And they have low levels of tolerance for bullshit.

His writing style is exactly same as Kaiser Tufail's that made me think like that.

 

[KRAIT]

All India needs is a prolonged conventional war with Pakistan atleast 15 days. It will have massive impact on our economy but we can absorb its effects while Pakistan's economy will come down to its knees.

People should rather think about the consequences of war even if India don't gain or lose any land. Intellectuals already say that in case of war, its the economy of the country doing better than the other will be the winner.

Think about it, rather than getting on your horses and start aggression against India.

 

[ajtr]

I remember Kaiser Tufail was in service during the Kargil time and after one of the meetings of the commanders about kargil operations from the PA he and his airforce buddies were unconvinced about the army palns and after the meeting kaiser tufail's one of the buddy said,"After the war it will either be a court martial or the coup"

And Exactly 3 months after the kargil musharraff did the coup.And This trend always happen after every war between india and pakistan.Jut to keep an eye on this trend mentioned by tufail.

1.Gen.Ayub was deposed after the 1965
2.Gen.Yahya got deposed after 1971
3.Musharraffa did coup after 1999.

So this trend does speaks volumes about PA officer's corps of which neither PAF nor PN are convinced.but they go with the army coz PA is dominant force in Pakistan's defence structure.