PAK-FA takes to the sky!

[albwd]

here found something interesting from another forum, valid points



we are indeed jumping too much

Also, politically, Russia is "required" to rush this to the scene.

 

[dbc]

3. Its just a prototype for first flight. Later on, there may be many changes.

The correct answer is 3. PAK-FA is work in progress, I have no doubt that F-35 RCS can be achieved give it time.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Probably, at least China lacks the super-computers to do the calculations (I think China accounced some super computers in 2009). Besides, China probably needs a very good original "guess" of a craft's model to feed the computers. J10 and Su's don't seem to be a good candidate. Then comes the engineering difficulties plus a new flight control. Aviation, missile and radar is probably not that a very big deal.

Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.

 

[Awesome]

here found something interesting from another forum, valid points



we are indeed jumping too much

I'm telling you, its just like 1998. "Hum ek din main Vijay hojayenge". And right now the RUSSIANS have tested it, not even in Indian hands... Sooner or later, the Pakistani/Chinese combo would puncture holes and then sab thanday hojayenge.

 

[Awesome]

1. Quite contencious I must say when India has alway had & still has a 'no first-use policy'.

2. Its a prototype & IMO will take fewer than 10 years for sure. 2017 being a likely date for induction. Also PAK-FA will definitely be a problem for Pakistan's defence as even if China helps Pakistan procure its supposedely 5th gen fighter then it will take it atleast 10 yrs (Because no prototype is in sight and the chinese have still to master engine production).Though pakistan will never face a doomsday scenario from India as India will never attack without provocation. Lastly pakistan shouldnt depend on China on a whole sale basis that has been seen from past some time.

Of course, even if they had a 1st use policy, we all knew India is blowing up smoke up our assess. Indians have a lot of phook right now, just like back then, they'll huff and puff.

 

[albwd]

Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.

Agreed. If they can make J10, they can make anything. How long it's going to take, nobody knows.

Not agreed. The word "match up". I think in 5th gen, you either beat the eagle or inferior to the eagle. They are all computer calculated, there is probably no way for Americans to improve this current 5th, the only thing they can do is to make another one ground up and hope to beat the current, which probably makes no sense. 5th gen machines are virtual, they are not really "designed" per say.

 

[saurabh]

Probably, at least China lacks the super-computers to do the calculations (I think China accounced some super computers in 2009). Besides, China probably needs a very good original "guess" of a craft's model to feed the computers. J10 and Su's don't seem to be a good candidate. Then comes the engineering difficulties plus a new flight control. Aviation, missile and radar is probably not that a very big deal.

I dont get this point. China is, considering just designs of airframes, using same kind of planes as russians are. berkut and mig 1.44 are not stealthy, so t50 is first russian attempt to. So why could not they feed a good original guess like russian did?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Very Correct, but i can say that sooner or later they will match up.
I have no doubt in that. All the Chinese Need is Time say 7-15 Years.

That is what the Chinese have given the time frame too. 7-8 years to get their 5th Gen aircraft into service.

Google PLAAF Deputy Commander's interview given on Chinese TV on the 60th anniversary of PRC.

So if the Deputy Commander says something like this, it means there is something in the background.

 

[albwd]

I dont get this point. China is, considering just designs of airframes, using same kind of planes as russians are. berkut and mig 1.44 are not stealthy, so t50 is first russian attempt to. So why could not they feed a good original guess like russian did?

I am not a plane design expert, based on my knowledge, I think I could come up with an educated guess. China crafts pre-j10 are all from Russia. Obviously Russia seems to have made a politically based decision to go with Sukhoi rather than support Migs(I think they are separate lines of product belong to two companies). My Gut feeling is if they go with Migs, they probably can come up with something challenges the eagle. Sukhoi's capability is in doubt when they couldn't deliver a Russian sub based missiles, as they need to show their prowess in current political environment, so the news of their failure may be true. Unlike Chinese, who doesn't have a political need, so the recently JL-2's launch failure is very much in doubt.

my cent.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Kargil was after the tests...

Yes, was i trying to say something else?
You Tested in 1998 and then Boasted in Kargil !

This is NOT an assessment by Indians but The American SPY Satellites.

I still remember clearly reading Indian army comments saying they will capture Lahore in one day

Unlike Pakistan in India, generals Dont Decide what and when is to be done. Our PM is Supreme Power to the Army

Actually depends on what we need. We need Thrust vectoring, Stealth... Thats something we can rely on the Chinese more than our western friends to supply.

When They Could NOT deliver the COMPLETE Fourth Gen Plane you want me accept that You will be 100% convinced by their UNTESTED Fifth Gen Tech ?

I guess u r NOT going to Get Avionics from France for JXX as well.

We need to maintain defensive capability. The very capability in our hands would be enough to deter the Indians.

18 F16s cant Deter 110 MKIs.
This Ratio will Remain same for the NEXT 25 Years.

You Get J10 - India Gets F18s - Triple The Number
You Get JXX [ IF ] - India Gets 250 FGFA + 250 MCS
You Get JF17 (150 - 250 ) - India Makes 60 Mig 29s SMT Standard and Gets over 150 LCAs with 60+ Mig 29Ks.

Here is the Truth :

• IAF is Way Ahead of PAF [ Though PAF has Very good Pilots and Fighters but the Number Game makes them fell short. ]
  
• India is NOT Competing with Pakistan its China all the way.
  
• To Deter India u First Got to Compete with India Economy that Fuels this Military Procurements.

 

[Chanakyaa]

That is what the Chinese have given the time frame too. 7-8 years to get their 5th Gen aircraft into service.

Google PLAAF Deputy Commander's interview given on Chinese TV on the 60th anniversary of PRC.

So if the Deputy Commander says something like this, it means there is something in the background.

Right Taimi,
Stealth is what they have to work on.
Short Cut : Buy the Russian Tech by Backdoor
Long Route : Invest Heavy Money and Get it Done by Yourself .. Needs Time.

Engine wont be the real issue thy can do it.

• But can their FIRST Engine Really deliver Super Cruise ?
• Can they Really Make the RCS Low
• Can they Make the RADAR performance up to the optimum level ?

These are a few obvious Questions.

 

[albwd]

I'm telling you, its just like 1998. "Hum ek din main Vijay hojayenge". And right now the RUSSIANS have tested it, not even in Indian hands... Sooner or later, the Pakistani/Chinese combo would puncture holes and then sab thanday hojayenge.

I think J10 is probably enough to secure air space. Obviously it doesn't have the global reach as a strategic bomber, though. I think Pak is getting 36 J10s, am I right?

 

[saurabh]

I am not a plane design expert, based on my knowledge, I think I could come up with an educated guess. China crafts pre-j10 are all from Russia. Obviously Russia seems to have made a politically based decision to go with Sukhoi rather than support Migs(I think they are separate lines of product belong to two companies). My Gut feeling is if they go with Migs, they probably can come up with something challenges the eagle. Sukhoi's capability is in doubt when they couldn't deliver a Russian sub based missiles, as they need to show their prowess in current political environment, so the news of their failure may be true. Unlike Chinese, who doesn't have a political need, so the recently JL-2's launch failure is very much in doubt.

my cent.

Wiki extract

In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union outlined a need for a next-generation aircraft to replace its MiG-29 and Su-27 in frontline service. Two projects were proposed to meet this need, the Sukhoi Su-47 and the Mikoyan Project 1.44. In 2002, Sukhoi was chosen to lead the design for the new combat aircraft. The PAK FA will incorporate technology from both the Su-47 and the MiG 1.44.

They are working on this project since 80's. It was the economic crisis that led to this delay.
I think Russians had extremely long experience in this field. Chinese too were making ACs, but they were never pressed for technological advancement the way Russian were. Chinese had Russian planes in their inventory, till mkk. So only recently did they were so pressed for indigenous tech. Also, R&D in Russia regarding military equipment can be said to be more advanced than Chinese because of such a long history, they were doing research since WW era. That counts for something. It makes me doubt, that china without outside help, can come up with something so fast.

 

[DeathGod]

Of course, even if they had a 1st use policy, we all knew India is blowing up smoke up our assess. Indians have a lot of phook right now, just like back then, they'll huff and puff.

Well if that's true then I dont think India will ever attack or should I say have the guts to attack Pakistan. All our govt. can do if huff and puff. On second thoughts if and when US pulls out of AF then there wont be any need of this forum, because India wont ever attack Pak and hence there wont be any enemy of Pakistan(hopefully). RAW ki toh ISI aisi ki taisi kar hi degi...

BTW Hawa main udane ke liye pankh chahiye hote hain aur phoonk hone ke liye bhi weapons chahiye.. jo India ne bahut paise de ke khareedein hain.. Sab yehi chahate hain ki woh kabhi use na hoon aur shayad nahi honge.. isliye kam se kam udi toh maarni hi chahiye unke bal pe... warna paise waste ho jayenge..

 

[albwd]

Wiki extract


They are working on this project since 80's. It was the economic crisis that led to this delay.
I think Russians had extremely long experience in this field. Chinese too were making ACs, but they were never pressed for technological advancement the way Russian were. Chinese had Russian planes in their inventory, till mkk. So only recently did they were so pressed for indigenous tech. Also, R&D in Russia regarding military equipment can be said to be more advanced than Chinese because of such a long history, they were doing research since WW era. That counts for something. It makes me doubt, that china without outside help, can come up with something so fast.

Without outside help, particularly from Germans, the answer is probably no. With Germans help (machine tools), and if domestic politics doesn't get in the way of sound judgement, China probably can get there. In today's world, there ain't that much scientific barrier, only engineering capabilities. Also for a good 5th gen, China probably needs more powerful chips for flight control, can pentium do that?
Where do China get the chips? The reason why I am worried about this is if you look at j10, it has fairly stable aerial dynamics which doesn't demand very powerful chips for flight control. But for a true 5th "machine designed" machine, very powerful chip is a must. I think only two countries in the world can deliver that, US, or Japan. duh.