Pak exchanged N-tech for N Korean long range missiles: US

[SQ8]

MZUBAIR.. There is no doubt to the fact that the KRL Ghauri is derived from the Nodong-1 and this is a private truth in the community of Pakistani scientists. As far as the exchange of nuclear tech for these missiles it is quite probable. Although from what I heard we purchased the missile from the North Koreans. it may very well have been a barter.

 

[Rafael]

Dude you clearly need to read more about North Korea, about the lunatic that rules it and how they live in a state of self proclaimed paranoia. And by the way it is not the world that keeps talking about attacking them, it is the other way round. They do missile tests over Japanese airspace and rant about war, what do you expect the International community to do about it - just sit quiet??




Most of the nuclear powers of today have proliferation free records, as their nuclear programs have been indigenous. But those countries that have been unsucessful in thier attempts have resorted to proliferation. The United States, Britain, France, Russia, Israel, India and even China to a large extent enjoy proliferation free record. It is Pakistan that has been the worst of all, proliferating to North Korea, Libya and Iran.

Stop rite there, Shows how ignorant you are.. Now stop bullshitting here and get a life....

 

[ajpirzada]

Dude you clearly need to read more about North Korea, about the lunatic that rules it and how they live in a state of self proclaimed paranoia. And by the way it is not the world that keeps talking about attacking them, it is the other way round. They do missile tests over Japanese airspace and rant about war, what do you expect the International community to do about it - just sit quiet??




Most of the nuclear powers of today have proliferation free records, as their nuclear programs have been indigenous. But those countries that have been unsucessful in thier attempts have resorted to proliferation. The United States, Britain, France, Russia, Israel, India and even China to a large extent enjoy proliferation free record. It is Pakistan that has been the worst of all, proliferating to North Korea, Libya and Iran.

how they live that has to do nothing with me. also if that guy rules north korea again i dont care. let it be that way. so far i havent heard of any massacre in that country which is bigger in scale than wat happens or happened in palestine, iraq, afghanistan, kashmir.
there have been many reports over last few yrs which talk about attackin north korea's nuclear facilities. now north korea may have her own fears which makes them give all such statements. we have only seen one side of the coin.
secondly i can only laugh on ur following statement

The United States, Britain, France, Russia, Israel, India and even China to a large extent enjoy proliferation free record

 

[Schultz]

Stop rite there, Shows how ignorant you are.. Now stop bullshitting here and get a life....

Just saying bullshit to everything under the sun that you don't like doesn't make it bullshit in the first place. I would have much appreciated if you had supported your monosyllabic answer with a valid argument backed by knowledge, but that is sadly not the case. Your one liners show the amount of knowledge you have about the topic. That you are not even confident of negating my point by reason and logic.

 

[Schultz]

how they live that has to do nothing with me. also if that guy rules north korea again i dont care. let it be that way. so far i havent heard of any massacre in that country which is bigger in scale than wat happens or happened in palestine, iraq, afghanistan, kashmir.

Ok let me enlighten you since you have not bothered to that yourself. North Korea has been describe by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch of having the worst human rights record of any nation. Near 200,000 people have been imprisoned in prisons & detention camps (0.85% of the total population), taking into consideration the absence of an independent judiciary most of them are political prisoners who have just been locked away. In a famine in 1997 (which happened due to mismanagement by the government) more than 2 million people died. This number alone is greater than the number of people killed in the arab world in the past 60 years of conflict. All this is just the tip of the iceberg as news from North Korea is hard to come out due to tight censorship by the government, there is no internet in the country for heavens sake. Hope you stand enlightened now??

there have been many reports over last few yrs which talk about attackin north korea's nuclear facilities. now north korea may have her own fears which makes them give all such statements. we have only seen one side of the coin.
secondly i can only laugh on ur following statement

Such talk has been only prompted due to North Korean actions like testing missile over Japanese airspace, threatening South Korea and Japan with war, with ought any provocation from their side. Dude after all this if you still want to worship North Korea go ahead, i wont provide any clarification after this post as this thread is meant to discuss something else and to just go on debating on this topic we will derail it.

Please do more than laugh on my point - provide an reason to contradict my point and a valid one that too. Failing to do so raises serious doubts over your ability to argue your point with reason and logic.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Refer to post No.5 by yourself in this thread where you yourself have stated that - the ghauri missile which is liquid fueled matched the profile of North Korea's Nodong. Directly implying that AQ got it from North korea.

I am not contesting that AQ may have dealt with NK on his own - I am contesting the fact that the Pakistani State approved those contacts, given that another organization was developing a more advanced series of missiles.

Dude you are totally basing your argument on the premise that Pakistan's control where weak before the proliferation scandal - where as it is very well know that the Pakistan Army maintained such a tight grip on the program that even the Prime Minister of Pakistan did not know properly about the Nuclear Program. In such circumstances it is highly unlikely that the Army did not know about AQ's exploits. I had pointed out earlier that it takes a huge network and infrastructure support to run a program of this dimension - didn't the Army find it suspicious when he moved equipment out from Pakistan (i am sure that they must have made an inventory of the equipment in their possession, didn't they get suspicious when some of it went missing), didn't the ISI know when this equipment was moved for transport, as military means would have been used to move them (a civil vehicle just cant move into a secure installation and take away equipment). How is this possible given the tight control the military maintained even before the proliferation scandal. And why is the Army not allowing international agencies like the IAEA to interrogate AQ.Khan, are they scared that he might spill the beans!!??

The proliferation controls were weak - why on earth would we go through the entire process of upgrading and strengthening them after the AQ Khan episode if they weren't? We even used the US as consultants and advisers in some parts of the process, to reassure them (and ourselves) that state of the art processes and systems were being employed. The US reportedly funded this effort to the tune of $100 million.

The military did exercise tight control over the program, but AQ Khan was part of that nuclear establishment. So long as AQ Khan operated a clandestine black market network to obtain technology for Pakistan, no amount of controls would have been effective. The very nature of his network meant that he had tremendous latitude to maintain contacts overseas and engage in deals.

This man created a larger than life persona and reputation for himself as 'the father of the Pakistani Bomb' (which he was not, though he contributed significantly), and was responsible for Pakistan obtaining key technologies - no one questioned his activities or loyalty (and for that matter no one can question his loyalty and patriotism now either).

From Gordon Corera's book, Shopping for Bombs: Nuclear Proliferation, Global Insecurity, and the Rise and Fall of the A.Q. Khan Network:

"One crucial question is how Khan was able to transfer centrifuges on military planes. The planes were chartered through official channels in the defense procurement agency in Pakistan's defense ministry. The rationale was that, as well as cooperation over the Ghauri, KRL was involved in major conventional arms deals with NK, which at one point was Pakistan's major supplier of weaponry. This gave Khan the freedom to go back and forth and it is not clear that pilots or other officials linked with transport would necessarily recognize a centrifuge as distinct from say, a missile part. There was never any accountability or records over the movement of weapons and material in and out of Pakistan, a product of fighting covert wars in the 1980's in Afghanistan and in the late 1990's in Kashmir as well as well as running a clandestine procurement program. Covert activity had become an integral part of the Pakistani state and meant the Khan could go about his business with minimal oversight, whether acting on his own or not.

KRL was subject to tight security but Pakistani officials that this does not mean they knew what Khan was up to. The security was oriented towards shielding the lab and its scientitsts from external threats rather than keeping check on their activities. From the beginning, the whole rationale of security was to protect the program from the web of international non-proliferation controls, to ensure that external procurement networks went undetected by foreign intelligence agencies and that knowledge of them was restricted to those who needed to know. "The idea was to protect the national laboratories and national strategic organizations from all external threats, " says Feroz Khan who was involved in that security. "The key purpose was to provide them the space they needed to work rather than control them. They were not in anybody's oversight ... They were not seeing what packages were going and what was inside the packages." The same was true of the budgetary and financial aspects of KRL's work - their aim was to facilitate, not to check up on Khan's activity. Military officials were assigned to run his security detail amid fears that he might be kidnapped by a foreign intelligence agency to reveal Pakistan's secrets. But the security officers at KRL were actually paid by Khan himself not by the government. They were often retired officers or officers approaching the end of their career whose loyalty could be pliable. Military figures inevitably have claimed that this autonomy explains why Khan could have sold material without any state knowledge. "The Pakistan army, if they deputized a person to be responsible at the site about the security of the project or program, they were made responsible to the boss, that is Khan," argues General Beg. "They were not responsible to the Army chief - not before me, not after me, or to another army chief. They reported directly to the KRL and its directer, Khan. And it has come out that they were getting paid by him. So the army as such was involved in decision making policy - but not directly responsible for all that was happening within the Kahuta lab." The head of security at KRL Brigade General Mohammed Iqbal Tajwar was amongst Khan's closest confidants, traveling with him on his shopping and selling trips. Tajwar was one of those detained in late 2003 when Pakistan finally acted against Khan. he told interrogators that he had no idea what was going on.

 

[Schultz]

I am not contesting that AQ may have dealt with NK on his own - I am contesting the fact that the Pakistani State approved those contacts, given that another organization was developing a more advanced series of missiles.



The proliferation controls were weak - why on earth would we go through the entire process of upgrading and strengthening them after the AQ Khan episode if they weren't? We even used the US as consultants and advisers in some parts of the process, to reassure them (and ourselves) that state of the art processes and systems were being employed. The US reportedly funded this effort to the tune of $100 million.

The military did exercise tight control over the program, but AQ Khan was part of that nuclear establishment. So long as AQ Khan operated a clandestine black market network to obtain technology for Pakistan, no amount of controls would have been effective. The very nature of his network meant that he had tremendous latitude to maintain contacts overseas and engage in deals.

This man created a larger than life persona and reputation for himself as 'the father of the Pakistani Bomb' (which he was not, though he contributed significantly), and was responsible for Pakistan obtaining key technologies - no one questioned his activities or loyalty (and for that matter no one can question his loyalty and patriotism now either).

From Gordon Corera's book, Shopping for Bombs: Nuclear Proliferation, Global Insecurity, and the Rise and Fall of the A.Q. Khan Network:

You seem to have come out with a strong argument and a qualitative one that too, my compliments. I must admit that now there seems a strong possibility about you being right about AQ acting independently. But a small amount of doubt still remains in my mind about the PA innocence, given their past record.

Can you please provide a link to the book that you have quoted above.

 

[Jihad]

You seem to have come out with a strong argument and a qualitative one that too, my compliments. I must admit that now there seems a strong possibility about you being right about AQ acting independently. But a small amount of doubt still remains in my mind about the PA innocence, given their past record.

Can you please provide a link to the book that you have quoted above.

He's someone you could learn from.
Perhaps he can change your anti-Pakistani sentiment.

 

[RootX]

Too old news my friend

 

[AzadPakistan]

All nuclear nation stole the secrets from each other so please

Pakistan and North Korea shared technology good for them whats the point of having technology you can't share with peers to enhance

You scratch my back i'll scratch yours -

In any case Pakistani briliant scientist , mastered the technology time to give credit to Pakistani scientist - they are not a joke

Pakistan - has a proper scientific community

 

[Schultz]

He's someone you could learn from.
Perhaps he can change your anti-Pakistani sentiment.

Grow up kid.Stop running around the forum trying to pick a fight with me. You are simply derailing the thread.

 

[Jihad]

Grow up kid.Stop running around the forum trying to pick a fight with me. You are simply derailing the thread.

Oh no, I just don't like anti-Pakistani individuals running around this board and infecting it with their one-sided bullsh!t.
We have plenty of Indians on this forum who are patriotic but are also realistic at the same time, they share mutual feelings of respect, you on the other hand, you're a joke.
Take it as a word of advice, you can learn alot from AM, he possesses the knowledge and experience to tilt opinions and views of alot of people on this forum, perhaps yours too will change.

 

[nwmalik]

we should try to learn to disagree but politely. Shouting or harsh sentences donot convince others, infact they as a reflex block you out.
This is something which lacks in us south asians as a general. West has mastered the art.
Our Prophet is the best example of this.

 

[Gabbar]

People in this forum and admins.
I request you all, that these Indians are behind to prove this rubbish that Pakistan had linked with N-Korea nukes info exchange. No one in the world is saying any thing about Pakistan except these Indians who are habitual.

They cant digest Pakistan nuke pw.

So, please close this thread which is baseless and without proves. Only Indians are offensive.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pdf/npp/Pakistan%20and North Korea.pdf


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/30781.pdf
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Pakistan 'helped N Korea go nuclear'

And you were saying ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pdf/npp/Pakistan and North Korea.pdf


http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/30781.pdf
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Pakistan 'helped N Korea go nuclear'

And you were saying ?

But so far we have shown that it is by no means settled that Pakistan assisted NK as a matter of state policy.

In fact most of the evidence indicates that AQ acted alone in proliferating to Iran, Libya and NK.

So you were saying?