Pak exchanged N-tech for N Korean long range missiles: US

[ARSENAL6]

Lets just hope that India has something close to what Pakistan has. I am sure if the world starting digging into the Indian C&C for their nukes, more issues would come out than those around the Pakistani one (ours is technically very secure, the perception issue is the challenge), on your side I have my doubts about the physical and technical security of it.

If they got any nukes that India claims to have.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Lets just hope that India has something close to what Pakistan has. I am sure if the world starting digging into the Indian C&C for their nukes, more issues would come out than those around the Pakistani one (ours is technically very secure, the perception issue is the challenge), on your side I have my doubts about the physical and technical security of it.

The results speak for themselves.

 

[Schultz]

We aren't clear on this at all. I don't believe you read my previous posts. A separate organization from AQ Khan's was developing the more advanced solid fueled Shaheen series of missiles, so why would the GoP and Military leadership authorize purchasing a less advanced liquid fueled missile from NK?

Refer to post No.5 by yourself in this thread where you yourself have stated that - the ghauri missile which is liquid fueled matched the profile of North Korea's Nodong. Directly implying that AQ got it from North korea.

My point is that AQ Khan was able to violate the controls and security in place with the contacts he established to obtain technology from developed countries in the West that had decades of experience and well established and matured institutions responsible for the security and controls on their programs.

In contrast Pakistan was, and is, a developing country with weak institutions and little experience in controls (we developed ours in the aftermath of the AQ Khan episode being brought to light). In fact, AQ Khan was given a tremendous amount of leeway to operate his network in terms of obtaining nuclear technology for Pakistan. Do you think when he was obtaining technology for Pakistan that every one knew where he was flying off too or who he was meeting?

The very secrecy and latitude he enjoyed in order to operate his network successful to ensure a flow of technology to Pakistan enabled him to also do so in the reverse direction, without official sanction and knowledge.

Pakistan's controls were weak, that has been acknowledged, but no motive or reason for officially proliferating to the 3 countries mentioned has been provided. And weak controls do not automatically imply state support for proliferation, otherwise some Western countries should also be accused of the same.

Dude you are totally basing your argument on the premise that Pakistan's control where weak before the proliferation scandal - where as it is very well know that the Pakistan Army maintained such a tight grip on the program that even the Prime Minister of Pakistan did not know properly about the Nuclear Program. In such circumstances it is highly unlikely that the Army did not know about AQ's exploits. I had pointed out earlier that it takes a huge network and infrastructure support to run a program of this dimension - didn't the Army find it suspicious when he moved equipment out from Pakistan (i am sure that they must have made an inventory of the equipment in their possession, didn't they get suspicious when some of it went missing), didn't the ISI know when this equipment was moved for transport, as military means would have been used to move them (a civil vehicle just cant move into a secure installation and take away equipment). How is this possible given the tight control the military maintained even before the proliferation scandal. And why is the Army not allowing international agencies like the IAEA to interrogate AQ.Khan, are they scared that he might spill the beans!!??

 

[Schultz]

Lets just hope that India has something close to what Pakistan has. I am sure if the world starting digging into the Indian C&C for their nukes, more issues would come out than those around the Pakistani one (ours is technically very secure, the perception issue is the challenge), on your side I have my doubts about the physical and technical security of it.

Reminds me of the myth perpetuated in the past about the racial superiority of the Martial Race by the Pakistan Army prior to 1971. That one Muslim was equal to four Hindus and so forth, Niazai had said that he will march down to Calcutta himself when war broke out.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Pak exchanged N-tech for N Korean long range missiles: US​

WASHINGTON: North Korea received designs for uranium enrichment centrifuges from Pakistan's disgraced nuclear scientist A Q Khan in return for its
long-range missiles, a Congressional report has told US lawmakers.

"Hwang Jang-yop, a Communist Party secretary who defected in 1997, has stated that North Korea and Pakistan agreed in the summer of 1996 to trade North Korean long-range missile technology for Pakistani HEU (highly enriched uranium) technology," the report on North Korean nuclear weapons programme has said.

Other information on North Korean-Pakistani cooperation dates back to 1993, said the report by Congressional Research Service (CRS) - the research wing of the US Congress.

North Korea has been exporting missiles to countries in the Middle East and South Asia and has had joint collaboration in development of missiles with Iran and Pakistan, it said.

In the 1990s, North Korea exported Scud and Nodong missiles to Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Syria and reportedly Egypt. It entered into joint development programmes with both Pakistan and Iran.

Pyongyang received designs for uranium enrichment centrifuges from Pakistan nuclear "czar" A Q Khan and has attempted to purchase overseas key components for uranium enrichment centrifuges, but some of these purchases have been blocked, according to the report.

Soon u will say Pakistan helped Bangladesh , Srilanka, Iran in making Nukes.

Who knows tomarrow u will say Rahul gandhi was son of any ISI officer

These are senseless news.
Pakistan have no link with N-Korea nukes.

 

[Schultz]

Soon u will say Pakistan helped Bangladesh , Srilanka, Iran in making Nukes.

Who knows tomarrow u will say Rahul gandhi was son of any ISI officer

These are senseless news.
Pakistan have no link with N-Korea nukes.

Well it is the United States that is saying it, not an Indian or the Government of India. Have you even followed the given link. A former North Korean officer who defected told the US congress that Pakistan exchanged nuclear technology for missile technology.

Now what apparent motive does he have to lie and specifically blame Pakistan only and not countries like China who are better allies of North Korea?

And instead of coming out with a quality reply you have chosen to be in denial of the truth, paying no attention to reason or logic. Just being dismissive and calling stuff BS does not make it untrue. Your stance should be supported by a valid argument and evidence.

 

[Rafael]

Well it is the United States that is saying it, not an Indian or the Government of India. Have you even followed the given link. A former North Korean officer who defected told the US congress that Pakistan exchanged nuclear technology for missile technology.

Now what apparent motive does he have to lie and specifically blame Pakistan only and not countries like China who are better allies of North Korea?

And instead of coming out with a quality reply you have chosen to be in denial of the truth, paying no attention to reason or logic. Just being dismissive and calling stuff BS does not make it untrue. Your stance should be supported by a valid argument and evidence.

The same US and its official told the world that Iraq had some serious WMD's for good 3 months before invading Iraq.... So, Whats your point here?

 

[ajpirzada]

AJpirzada,

The reality is that there exists no motive and no benefit for Pakistan to proliferate to Iran or Libya - the strategic relationship we had with the Saudi's is fact, the really poor relationship we had with the Libyan's after Bhutto was killed is also fact.

The only place where motive and possible benefit outweighing the costs exists is North Korea, and even there the motive is murky since Pakistan was developing more advanced missiles than those North Korea had to offer.

It is also fact that Western entities proliferated far more technology to us than we did to North Korea, despite being more advanced, so it is not at all impossible for proliferation to occur without official sanction.

Finally, beyond all of this, Pakistan was not and is not a NPT signatory. So even if we had proliferated officially to all of these nations, we broke no treaties or agreements we were party to, and therefore committed no wrong.

i get your point. but this again raises the question how could our military establishment not know about this, given the scale of prolifiration. it wasnt somethign which was done in one day and therefore our agencies failed to pick it up. i may bail out GoP but not military establishment. they must be aware of wats goin on and wats the reason behind this.
you have raised a gud point that we are not a signatory of NPT so technically we didnt do any wrong.
another question for my knowledge sake.. wats the proof of us givin this technology to libya and iran?

 

[Schultz]

The same US and its official told the world that Iraq had some serious WMD's for good 3 months before invading Iraq.... So, Whats your point here?

Yep the Bush administration lied to the world but this doesn't happen every day. and moreover this current testimony was given to the US congress by a North Korean official who defected. This guy is just testifying and reaffirming what every one knows is the truth already. What reason could he have to lie? Even before this testimony everyone knew for sure that Pakistan dealt with North Korea, illegally supplying them nuclear technology. What's so surprising about that. Unless of course you want to live in denial. in that case your argument holds merit.

 

[ajpirzada]

Yep the Bush administration lied to the world but this doesn't happen every day. and moreover this current testimony was given to the US congress by a North Korean official who defected. This guy is just testifying and reaffirming what every one knows is the truth already. What reason could he have to lie? Even before this testimony everyone knew for sure that Pakistan dealt with North Korea, illegally supplying them nuclear technology. What's so surprising about that. Unless of course you want to live in denial. in that case your argument holds merit.

can u remind me when did we sign NPT??? only then u can say it was illegal

 

[Schultz]

can u remind me when did we sign NPT??? only then u can say it was illegal

Not having signed the NPT will not absolve you of the crime of having supplied nuclear technology to a lunatic, who could at any moment that catches his fancy nuke Japan or South Korea.

Dude hiding behind technicalities wont help, its like saying - i gave the weapon to the murderer but did not kill, so i am absolutely innocent. There is something called a moral dimension too. If it is a bankruptcy of scruples that you are facing, then you are well justified in making a statement like that.

 

[ajpirzada]

Not having signed the NPT will not absolve you of the crime of having supplied nuclear technology to a lunatic, who could at any moment that catches his fancy nuke Japan or South Korea.

Dude hiding behind technicalities wont help, its like saying - i gave the weapon to the murderer but did not kill, so i am absolutely innocent. There is something called a moral dimension too. If it is a bankruptcy of scruples that you are facing, then you are well justified in making a statement like that.

well north korea might sound lunatic today but wait for few yrs and u will not hear such statements comin from them. we made such statements as well when we were close to acquirin this technology. and wat else should we expect from them when world keeps talkin about attackin them?
u may wanna use the phrase 'moral bankruptcy' when it comes to proliferation. but then again which country (with nuk weapons) was not morally bankrupt when acquirin this tech. did they not proliferate to look after their national interests?
but technically speaking we didnt do anything illegal.

 

[Schultz]

well north korea might sound lunatic today but wait for few yrs and u will not hear such statements comin from them. we made such statements as well when we were close to acquirin this technology. and wat else should we expect from them when world keeps talkin about attackin them?

Dude you clearly need to read more about North Korea, about the lunatic that rules it and how they live in a state of self proclaimed paranoia. And by the way it is not the world that keeps talking about attacking them, it is the other way round. They do missile tests over Japanese airspace and rant about war, what do you expect the International community to do about it - just sit quiet??

u may wanna use the phrase 'moral bankruptcy' when it comes to proliferation. but then again which country (with nuk weapons) was not morally bankrupt when acquirin this tech. did they not proliferate to look after their national interests?
but technically speaking we didnt do anything illegal.

Most of the nuclear powers of today have proliferation free records, as their nuclear programs have been indigenous. But those countries that have been unsucessful in thier attempts have resorted to proliferation. The United States, Britain, France, Russia, Israel, India and even China to a large extent enjoy proliferation free record. It is Pakistan that has been the worst of all, proliferating to North Korea, Libya and Iran.

 

[SQ8]

Considering that the North Korean deal got us a launch platform for our bomb. There is nothing unusual about it, a cornered animal will try anything to gain the upper hand. The United Kingdom proliferated its nuclear technology along with France to Israel. Clean record... I doubt the relation of this term with any nuclear power except India since it doesn't have restriction on it like Pakistan. So while India might be the lesser devil when it comes to nuclear proliferation it doesn't make the NPT signers angels.
As far as the Libyan and Iranian proliferation is concerned. It was the flawed Pakistani mentality of helping fellow Muslim nations for leverage against India and expecting the same in return. And AQ Khan for all his achievements and being a national hero, is guilty of proliferating due to a hodgepodge of pan-Islamic idealism and financial gains for his foundation.
So while it is absolutely morally wrong to supply nuclear technology to any nation not because of a maniac in power who is incidentally about to pass on to the next domain, but specifically since it promotes an arms race by the neighbors of that country to acquire weapons. But as the US president himself just outlined this in his cairo speech, The problem lies with the danger of an arms race and not whether one nation should have the weapons or not.
still, even today if Pakistan is embargoed once again, and somehow Burma makes a SLBM, If Pakistan can acquire it by giving a few centrifuges in return.So be it, in this dog eat dog world, all is fair for one's survival.

 

[MZUBAIR]

People in this forum and admins.
I request you all, that these Indians are behind to prove this rubbish that Pakistan had linked with N-Korea nukes info exchange. No one in the world is saying any thing about Pakistan except these Indians who are habitual.

They cant digest Pakistan nuke pw.

So, please close this thread which is baseless and without proves. Only Indians are offensive.