Pak exchanged N-tech for N Korean long range missiles: US

[ajpirzada]

i always wonder that all these nuclear states were also involved in black market (may be it was called white market back then) at their time of acquirin the tech then y only target pakistan. we did wat we had to do to get wat we needed.
im sure that most of the other countries didnt get their nuke tech as christmas present from Santa

 

[blain2]

The impact of proliferation will be around for sometime for us Pakistanis however one thing that should be clear to all Pakistanis is that it was worth it that we did what we did. There is no shame in this game. We did it for our survival just as many others have done many other dubious things to guarantee their own security.

All this talk about Pakistan did this or that is nothing but efforts to keep pressure on Pakistan. The best answer is to tell the West that what is in the past is in the past. Get over it and focus on how to make things better for the future.

 

[ajpirzada]

Common TOPGUN you can do better than that. It is a fact that nuclear technology was traded for missiles. Traded to who?, a ruthless dictator and God knows who else got nuclear technology from AQ Khan.

atleast not more than israel. and guess where did israel get her bomb from??
also US doesnt have a very gud track record when it comes to human rights. heroshema, vietnam, iraq war and when it comes to civillian killing then afghanistan war as well.
i cant go on with saveral other countries but that will only derail the thread.

 

[Gucci Juice]

i dont think TOI has any credibility whatsoever...

just today they said the airbus crash was because of the Bermuda triangle when the triangle itsself is a few thousand miles away.

one of the most retarded papers in some areas of reporting i've ever seen

so get some better sources than toi

 

[Spitfighter]

The impact of proliferation will be around for sometime for us Pakistanis however one thing that should be clear to all Pakistanis is that it was worth it that we did what we did. There is no shame in this game. We did it for our survival just as many others have done many other dubious things to guarantee their own security.

All this talk about Pakistan did this or that is nothing but efforts to keep pressure on Pakistan. The best answer is to tell the West that what is in the past is in the past. Get over it and focus on how to make things better for the future.

Yeah but don't you think dealing with North Korea of all nations would harm Pakistan's credibility? The past is the past, but if a nation is desperate enough to give a madman nuclear technology then what guarantees can that country possibly provide if its threat perception hasn't changed or maybe even got worse?

If Pakistan was already collaborating with the Chinese, why go out of your way to damage your international image? I guess it doesn't matter anymore, but I'm trying to get my head around the GOP. from an Indian perspective, this only adds to the already long list of sketchy behavior (from our perspective obviously).

Why exactly do you think Pakistan did what it did? Do you think simply working with China would have made things a lot simpler?

 

[Coolyo]

disgraced nuclear scientist?

Get a life! Adbul Qadeer is a hero, and will remain a hero, Insha Allah!

Pakistan Zindabad!

 

[notsuperstitious]

Pakistan gave nuclear technology to more than one country, and how was the missile tech so desperately needed when nukes were already there? What did Libya give back? And Iran? That excuse of we did what we had to is lame. We did what we did would be better.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan gave nuclear technology to more than one country, and how was the missile tech so desperately needed when nukes were already there? What did Libya give back? And Iran? That excuse of we did what we had to is lame. We did what we did would be better.

That is where the part about AQ Khan acting on his own, or at least without State knowledge (even if he had other high level collaborators/facilitators), comes into play.

As I mentioned earlier, Pakistan had an indigenous missile program in the form of the Shaheen series being developed by NESCOM at the same time as AQ Khan was allegedly proliferating to NK for missile Tech.

Keep in mind that the majority of the work on Pakistan's nuclear program was not being done by AQ Khan's organization, but the PAEC, and there was quite a bit of tension between the two. It was the PAEC that developed the Pakistani bomb designs and conducted Pakistan's tests, with AQ Khan invited as a 'guest/observer'.

As you suggested, Pakistan gained nothing from proliferating to Iran or Libya. In fact, analysts have speculated that Pakistan has an arrangement with Saudi Arabia that it will provide a nuclear umbrella to it if Iran obtains the bomb - so that makes the possibility of Pakistan officially proliferating to Iran even less plausible.

All of this suggests to me that AQ Khan proliferated largely on his own, possibly with some other high level facilitators, but not with the knowledge of the Government or Military - there just does not appear to be any justification or advantage to do so, nor was Khan's organization the primary one developing Pakistani nukes, which could explain why he sold duds to Libya, and Chinese notes and papers to Iran.

 

[Schultz]

disgraced nuclear scientist?

Get a life! Adbul Qadeer is a hero, and will remain a hero, Insha Allah!

Pakistan Zindabad!

It is a well know fact that AQ.Khan stole centrifuge designs from the Dutch company he was working in, he was actively involved in illegal trading of Nuclear Technology and equipment (that too with the worst dictatorial regime in the world). He was humiliated on national television, when he was made to confess by Musharraf. Well dude to me he sounds more like a smuggler and a thief - if those are the principles you adore, cherish and live up to, then you are perfectly justified in calling him your hero.

Had AQ.Khan the brains to develop the technology that he stole he could have been respected. For all his contribution to your nuclear program he has been treated like pariah by your own government, condemned internationally, disgraced, humiliated and shunted away from public life - hardy again the profile of a hero.

 

[afriend]

That is where the part about AQ Khan acting on his own, or at least without State knowledge (even if he had other high level collaborators/facilitators), comes into play.

As I mentioned earlier, Pakistan had an indigenous missile program in the form of the Shaheen series being developed by NESCOM at the same time as AQ Khan was allegedly proliferating to NK for missile Tech.

Keep in mind that the majority of the work on Pakistan's nuclear program was not being done by AQ Khan's organization, but the PAEC, and there was quite a bit of tension between the two. It was the PAEC that developed the Pakistani bomb designs and conducted Pakistan's tests, with AQ Khan invited as a 'guest/observer'.

As you suggested, Pakistan gained nothing from proliferating to Iran or Libya. In fact, analysts have speculated that Pakistan has an arrangement with Saudi Arabia that it will provide a nuclear umbrella to it if Iran obtains the bomb - so that makes the possibility of Pakistan officially proliferating to Iran even less plausible.

All of this suggests to me that AQ Khan proliferated largely on his own, possibly with some other high level facilitators, but not with the knowledge of the Government or Military - there just does not appear to be any justification or advantage to do so, nor was Khan's organization the primary one developing Pakistani nukes, which could explain why he sold duds to Libya, and Chinese notes and papers to Iran.

Hey AM this amounts to treason right and why is he still free???? This leads to the suspicion of involvment of pakistans institutional elements..!! Basically since the policies(forgien and domestic) are derived or influenced by a power centre here in this case military, the most influential person in that power centre can take decisions on their own.. and i believe this nuclear prolifieration was such teenager decision taken by a group of militiary top brass. You saw an immature decision in intruding in kargil, you saw an imature decision in supporting the afghan talibans during the soviet times.. and this could be one..!!!
And purely this is a logical conclusion i can derive out of all the news report that i have read..!!!

 

[Schultz]

That is where the part about AQ Khan acting on his own, or at least without State knowledge (even if he had other high level collaborators/facilitators), comes into play.


All of this suggests to me that AQ Khan proliferated largely on his own, possibly with some other high level facilitators, but not with the knowledge of the Government or Military - there just does not appear to be any justification or advantage to do so, nor was Khan's organization the primary one developing Pakistani nukes, which could explain why he sold duds to Libya, and Chinese notes and papers to Iran.

In Pakistan the military is omnipresent, it is just everywhere. It was the Army that ran the Nuclear Weapons program and oversaw the whole thing, it maintained such a tight grip on the program that even the prime minister had no knowledge of what was going on. In such circumstances it would be very naive to believe that AQ.Khan could run a smuggling program entirely on his own. As such a huge global operation cannot be conduced with ought resources that a state can offer, like - transport planes to shift equipment, diplomatic relations that enable contact, secret trips to pariah countries, creation of international black market network, secure communications, modes of payment and exchange of equipment or technology etc..

If AQ could achieve all this on his own as you suggest, then he would be a bigger super spy than bond himself!!!! and the ISI was not exactly sleeping to let him get away with all that. So my friend the line of your reasoning is flawed and was developed for domestic consumption in Pakistan, it holds no merit with an well informed global audience.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hey AM this amounts to treason right and why is he still free???? This leads to the suspicion of involvment of pakistans institutional elements..!! Basically since the policies(forgien and domestic) are derived or influenced by a power centre here in this case military, the most influential person in that power centre can take decisions on their own.. and i believe this nuclear prolifieration was such teenager decision taken by a group of militiary top brass. You saw an immature decision in intruding in kargil, you saw an imature decision in supporting the afghan talibans during the soviet times.. and this could be one..!!!
And purely this is a logical conclusion i can derive out of all the news report that i have read..!!!

Because he still contributed a great deal to setting up Pakistan's nuclear program - we did not have to reinvent the wheel in a lot of areas because of his network - so he is still in a way a national hero, albeit a disgraced one, unless evidence indicating he did this under orders comes to light.

I doubt the military top brass would have taken the decision to proliferate, given that the military top brass would be the ones with the most intimate knowledge of Pakistan's strategic programs.

Why would order proliferation to NK for missile tech, when they knew that a more advanced solid fueled missile was being developed by NESCOM?

Why would they proliferate duds to Libya for no ostensible gain?

Why would they proliferate old Chinese designs to Iran for no ostensible gain, and incur the wrath of the Saudis, who are speculated to have bankrolled some strategic programs in return for a nuclear umbrella against Iran?

None of the above makes sense quite frankly, from the POV of the GoP or military top brass ordering the proliferation. I think the truth is more mundane, of a lack of proper controls and too much latitude allowed to AQ Khan by virtue of his personality, and of AQ Khan possibly having some high level facilitators in the GoP and/or military who were out to make money and/or proliferating to anti-US entities out of ideological reasons.

Think about this, if Western analysts are to be believed, Pakistan obtained a lot more technology from the West, by virtue of Western institutions and individuals proliferating, than it ever proliferated itself.

So why is the breakdown of controls in a less advanced and developed country so incredible, when Western nations committed even greater sins of proliferation? And why does no one suggest that all of their governments were secretly supporting proliferation to Pakistan?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In Pakistan the military is omnipresent, it is just everywhere. It was the Army that ran the Nuclear Weapons program and oversaw the whole thing, it maintained such a tight grip on the program that even the prime minister had no knowledge of what was going on. In such circumstances it would be very naive to believe that AQ.Khan could run a smuggling program entirely on his own. As such a huge global operation cannot be conduced with ought resources that a state can offer, like - transport planes to shift equipment, diplomatic relations that enable contact, secret trips to pariah countries, creation of international black market network, secure communications, modes of payment and exchange of equipment or technology etc..

If AQ could achieve all this on his own as you suggest, then he would be a bigger super spy than bond himself!!!! and the ISI was not exactly sleeping to let him get away with all that. So my friend the line of your reasoning is flawed and was developed for domestic consumption in Pakistan, it holds no merit with an well informed global audience.

And what was the motive behind proliferating to North Korea, Iran and Libya?

Everything AQ Khan did to set up Pakistan's nuclear program involved far greater magnitudes of proliferation from the West to Pakistan than Pakistan allegedly ever proliferated to North Korea, Iran and Libya - so does that mean that Western governments knowingly proliferated to Pakistan?

 

[Schultz]

And what was the motive behind proliferating to North Korea, Iran and Libya?

Everything AQ Khan did to set up Pakistan's nuclear program involved far greater magnitudes of proliferation from the West to Pakistan than Pakistan allegedly ever proliferated to North Korea, Iran and Libya - so does that mean that Western governments knowingly proliferated to Pakistan?

We are confusing the issue here. The real question is not the motive behind proliferation but if proliferation did indeed take place - and there is no denying that. Its a well established fact that proliferation of the worst kind did indeed take place from Pakistan under the direction of the Army.

As for the motive behind proliferation to North Korea, we all know. But for the motive behind proliferation to Iran and Libya, you will have to ask the Generals in Rawalpindi. I can only take a wild guess (Islamic bomb, threaten Israel) but the Generals are more qualified to answer this.

Buddy i pointed out earlier about the tight grip that the Pakistan Army maintains on the Nuclear Program. Tell me honestly if you think that AQ.Khan could have done it with ought them knowing it??

 

[rizwan78]

Common TOPGUN you can do better than that. It is a fact that nuclear technology was traded for missiles. Traded to who?, a ruthless dictator and God knows who else got nuclear technology from AQ Khan.

Lets discuss about the Israel nucks first , Hundreds Of ready made Nuclear Bomb has been given by uncle saam to a unstable, untrusted and future less country,