Pak army new airborne division

[blain2]

One correction to this thread/article. The Army is not looking to raise a new "Airborne" division in the true sense of "airborne", rather an "air assault" capability (the exact size could be between a brigade to a division depending on resources and funding - I am sure the Army would love to have an air assault division on the pattern of US 101 Div (Air Assault). The "Airborne" (para) capability is already in the process of expansion with the addition of 2 additional brigades in the SSG and upgrading of the command to divisional level.

The "Air Assault" component requires massive funding because of the expensive transport assets (all rotary).[/QUOTE]

air-borne or air-assault. pretty expensive propositions.
can someone (blain2) expound on the requirement of different types of helicopters required to move a single battalion/regiment.

utility/light transport
armed
medium/heavy lift

once this is clarified, will we find out the total requirement for a brigade / division.!

We will have a poor man's air assault division if we go for it. I also don't think that we would have anything like what the US has in the form of 101 Div. Thay have upwards of 280 helicopters which include Kiowas (utility/scout), Blackhawks (medium lift), Chinooks (heavy lift) and AH-64 apaches (gunship).

As per open sources, the number mentioned above gives the division the ability to airlift 4000 troops in a single airlift along with supporting artillery. This is no mean feat. My own take is that our own planning (if it bears fruit), would be to utilize M-17s to be able to move at least a brigade around fairly quickly (not including Artillery). If we could do that, I would be seriously impressed. The cost would be somewhat affordable if we go with Russian helicopters. We would probably focus on Scouting and transport and not bother with the gunship aspect.

This capability may get the needed support because it can easily be used to put highly trained troops quickly into a theater (against Taliban etc.) using air mobility.

 

[blain2]

I see, but I'm a little confused...this new division will operate with the SSG as its core but most of the air-assualt troopers wont be from the SSG?

I personally dont feel that the SSG should be turned into a half Green Beret/half 101 Air Assualt force. I think we should have dedicated rapid delpoyment forces using helicopters and all...but our behind enemy lines Commando units should be seperately organized. SSG should not be used as assault troopers, for that we need more bulky and heavily armed airborne forces. If you mix them you will dilute both the concepts...but thats just my take.

I think in the future there will be a split. SOTF will become an entity different from the SSG which will focus on its traditional SF roles. The manpower for the air-assault would probably come from the Army and not SSG alone. Based on what I have noticed, the Army and specially the SSG is very interested in having SSG units specializing in certain specific roles rather than having SF troops inducted into any or every role deemed unsuitable for the infantry.

Secondly, SSG cannot possibly provide manpower for other ventures such as the Air Assault with the current setup. Regular infantry would have to be trained and inducted in such a formation.

 

[Quwa]

blain2

The Mi-171-series will soon enter production in China and the Chinese are looking to export their variants to Pakistan. We may try to acquire more Bell-412s or perhaps look into the Z-15 or AW149 for the lower-medium role. The attack helicopter requirement would run between T-129, WZ-10 and AH-1Z IMO.

 

[Kasrkin]

I think in the future there will be a split. SOTF will become an entity different from the SSG which will focus on its traditional SF roles. The manpower for the air-assault would probably come from the Army and not SSG alone. Based on what I have noticed, the Army and specially the SSG is very interested in having SSG units specializing in certain specific roles rather than having SF troops inducted into any or every role deemed unsuitable for the infantry.

I disagree with this approach a bit, I feel that explicit anti-terrorist roles should be designated to the para-military commandos. You may feel that having different specialized roles will make our SSG force more flexible, but I think it will do that opposite. It will make it near impossible for SSG companies to operate cohesively should the need arise, for example in a war with India our primary adversary, what are we gonna do with our Anti-Terrorist squads? It would be a waste in a conventional war where numbers and wide spread usage are very relevant indeed...having specialized companies will make flexible battle plans impossible and the desired net outcome on the battlefield much harder to achieve. If two sapping operations have to be conducted simultaneously then our sappers will have to be divided or one operation may have to be delayed or more likely canceled, for example…and if one of our SSG mountain companies is in trouble then other companies will be unequipped and untrained to come to their aid. If we need to blow up a dozen bridges in enemy territory and have the SSG man-power required but all of them are not trained to operate behind enemy lines, then that would be a loss I feel.

I have no problem with SSG dealing with terrorists, but I have a problem with them being told “this is the worst of what you will face.” Let the para-military and police forces specialize in hostage rescue and terrorist situations…use the SSG if you have to against assaults on well protected terrorist hideout in the open country. But don’t degrade their value in a real war.

Well that’s just what I think, no doubt Blain2 will know better…maybe I haven’t fully understood the ground situation but this is my take on it.

 

[Kasrkin]

My own take is that our own planning (if it bears fruit), would be to utilize M-17s to be able to move at least a brigade around fairly quickly (not including Artillery). If we could do that, I would be seriously impressed. The cost would be somewhat affordable if we go with Russian helicopters.

What the point sir? They would be sitting ducks! I think we need to get our hands on some serious light weight artillery like the Indians are and the WoT is the perfect excuse! I reckon getting Cobra gunships to cover their deployment would be some what easier...but I think we need atleast 2 dozen new Cobras too even if they are sent by the Army Aviation in for support.

Hey what do we know about the Indian Parachute Regiment? Are they any good? At par with the British?

 

[fatman17]

We will have a poor man's air assault division if we go for it. I also don't think that we would have anything like what the US has in the form of 101 Div. Thay have upwards of 280 helicopters which include Kiowas (utility/scout), Blackhawks (medium lift), Chinooks (heavy lift) and AH-64 apaches (gunship).

As per open sources, the number mentioned above gives the division the ability to airlift 4000 troops in a single airlift along with supporting artillery. This is no mean feat. My own take is that our own planning (if it bears fruit), would be to utilize M-17s to be able to move at least a brigade around fairly quickly (not including Artillery). If we could do that, I would be seriously impressed. The cost would be somewhat affordable if we go with Russian helicopters. We would probably focus on Scouting and transport and not bother with the gunship aspect.

This capability may get the needed support because it can easily be used to put highly trained troops quickly into a theater (against Taliban etc.) using air mobility.

exactly my point - it will be a limited capability so lets not start jumping up and down. if we can accomplish what blain2 is suggesting, it will be a great start.

 

[fatman17]

blain2

The Mi-171-series will soon enter production in China and the Chinese are looking to export their variants to Pakistan. We may try to acquire more Bell-412s or perhaps look into the Z-15 or AW149 for the lower-medium role. The attack helicopter requirement would run between T-129, WZ-10 and AH-1Z IMO.

would require russian approval which they will probably grant.

 

[blain2]

blain2

The Mi-171-series will soon enter production in China and the Chinese are looking to export their variants to Pakistan. We may try to acquire more Bell-412s or perhaps look into the Z-15 or AW149 for the lower-medium role. The attack helicopter requirement would run between T-129, WZ-10 and AH-1Z IMO.

Yes I agree. I think Pakistan would have to look at options other than US and Western as they are fairly expensive.

 

[JK!]

Has Pakistan ever considered the Mi26 Halo for heavy lift?

There is a good article on them in this months AFM and most former Soviet states have them in storage.

 

[blain2]

I disagree with this approach a bit, I feel that explicit anti-terrorist roles should be designated to the para-military commandos. You may feel that having different specialized roles will make our SSG force more flexible, but I think it will do that opposite. It will make it near impossible for SSG companies to operate cohesively should the need arise, for example in a war with India our primary adversary, what are we gonna do with our Anti-Terrorist squads? It would be a waste in a conventional war where numbers and wide spread usage are very relevant indeed...having specialized companies will make flexible battle plans impossible and the desired net outcome on the battlefield much harder to achieve. If two sapping operations have to be conducted simultaneously then our sappers will have to be divided or one operation may have to be delayed or more likely canceled, for example…and if one of our SSG mountain companies is in trouble then other companies will be unequipped and untrained to come to their aid. If we need to blow up a dozen bridges in enemy territory and have the SSG man-power required but all of them are not trained to operate behind enemy lines, then that would be a loss I feel.

I have no problem with SSG dealing with terrorists, but I have a problem with them being told “this is the worst of what you will face.” Let the para-military and police forces specialize in hostage rescue and terrorist situations…use the SSG if you have to against assaults on well protected terrorist hideout in the open country. But don’t degrade their value in a real war.

Well that’s just what I think, no doubt Blain2 will know better…maybe I haven’t fully understood the ground situation but this is my take on it.

Kasrkin,

The way the re-org is happening (and this is something that even US SF do), the SSG will have Battalions that have individual companies specialized in specific operations (mountain, desert etc. etc.). This allows the SSG to scale because getting expensive mountain warfare or dedicated gear for desert warfare is cheaper at a company level than trying to equip an entire battalion.

The SSG operators will go through the same Basic and Advanced Commando courses as they do now, but beyond that, you need specialization and just like its hard to have a large number of highly trained SSG troops, its hard to have everyone specialized in a certain role even within the SSG. So while everyone is trained as a SF operator in the general commando craft, beyond that they need more specific training. A company size is fairly good to operate with given the fact that SSG teams usually are fairly small.

Also the tasking given to the SSG formations is not something that does not take into regard what their missions will be. The SSG training is probably the most in line with what the Army wants them to do as the GOC of the SSG directly reports into the CGS of the Pakistan Army. Their mission, TE&O, training etc. all have to be approved at the very highest levels. If the Army feels that SSG could be used in certain specific roles or theaters, then the SSG has to respond by training its cadres in those roles. Just the training aspect alone is very complicated which has led to the establishment of the Special Operations School because there was need felt for consistent and specialized courses to be run.

I think you are right about the Counter Terrorism stuff, this is something that a well trained rangers unit can also do thereby freeing up the SSG from this role and the one that I hate the most, the VVIP protection. As wrong as it sounds, I think its a waste using some of the finest troops in the Army to protect civilian leadership. We should have a dedicated VVIP protection team in the Interior ministry having no links outside of training with the SSG if need be.

 

[EagleEyes]

Yes I agree. I think Pakistan would have to look at options other than US and Western as they are fairly expensive.

The U.S. of course will not provide money for the Chinese weapons.

 

[blain2]

What the point sir? They would be sitting ducks! I think we need to get our hands on some serious light weight artillery like the Indians are and the WoT is the perfect excuse! I reckon getting Cobra gunships to cover their deployment would be some what easier...but I think we need atleast 2 dozen new Cobras too even if they are sent by the Army Aviation in for support.

Hey what do we know about the Indian Parachute Regiment? Are they any good? At par with the British?

I was suggesting a one thing at a time sort of a thing. Before they get integral Arty and gunship support, they could rely on the PAA Cobras. This is something that is already going on with the support being provided to the SOTF by both the Cobra and Aviation Assault sqns of the PAA.

Indian Para regiments are good too but I think they split the formations into Para regts and Para Commando (aka SF) regts now. The Para Commandos being their elite. Not sure about the comparison with the British (equipment wise the west is always better off, however training and capabilities wise, I think soldiers from South Asia are as good as they come).

 

[blain2]

The U.S. of course will not provide money for the Chinese weapons.

They may not but its not an impossibility either. After all the FC's Chinese T-56 rifles are probably also getting funded by US money to upgrade FC capacity.

They could provide some of their surplus helicopters and Pakistan may have to spend own money on the Chinese, Russian gear as well.

 

[Quwa]

blain2;

So this idea of an airborne division...do you think it will be battalion level? If so, then wouldn't that limit the scope of this force to simply supplement the regular infantry...or can we expect a real airborne brigade?

 

[Prodigy17]

Slight diversion from the topic but i see we are talking about an air assault division and not an airborne division as the topic of the thread implies. Now, 101st is an airborne division and is commonly called Screaming Eagles. Correct me if i'm wrong but airborne divisions are parachute divisions requiring transport aircrafts whereas air assault divisions have rotary wing heilcopters. In the current situation as we find ourselves today air assault divisions are the need of the hour and such step should be appreciated and supported by US.