Pak army new airborne division

[MastanKhan]

For WoT we need more Medium Lift Helos in the BlackHawk, MI-17 range. Fast ingress and exit is the name of the game during COIN ops. MI-17 is a good and robust platform -- we just need more of them.

We can use light utility helos armed with rockets, chain guns, side firing gatling guns to tackle the terrorists. Readily avialable UH1H or later models (In large quantities) which can be bought cheaply and retired after we are finished with the Terrs.

AH-64 or T-129 type of Helos are another ball game altogether. For these types of helo we can wait. Let us wait for the T-129 to come into production in and around 2013. AH-64 is an expensive platform to service and maintain. PAA has a poor record of servicing it helos -- it will take time for it come to the standards of PAF.

One of the reason that PA or PAF wants to go the American route is the depth of transfer of expertise, training, and maintenance regimes that comes with a typical US weapons platform transfer. This helps build soft skills of the user of that platform.

The same skill set has helped us teach the Chinese on their weapons transfer programs and the maintenance regimes. This is where the Chinese seek out from Pakistanis the best practices for going global on their weapons platforms.

I believe that Turkey has the same advantage and T129 program will reflect it as well.

My 2C worth.

Hi Aamir,

Remembering the russian afghan war---I would say we need helicopters of the type of the russian HIND---which can withstand infantry fire and rocket propelled grenades launched at it.

The russian hind was extremely effective against the afghan muj---the sound of that chopper was terrifying. The only success agains the chopper was the stinger---and once those helicopers installed the exhaust shields the stingers became less effective. Currently---the taliban have no stingers.

Secondly---with troop carrying capacity---after the helicopter has cleaned up the ground, the troops can disembark and track the wounded / on the run terrorists. They can also check out the dead ones to see what they got.

With the availability of anti air craft guns to the insurgents---light skinned helicopters maynot be too much of a help in a ground clearing assault.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Yes that is thought. If we can lay our hand on some MI-35 type of helos would be good and as you have outlined the Afghan experience in your post, it would be psyops coup.

Good thought!;-)

 

[Babur Han]

Yes that is thought. If we can lay our hand on some MI-35 type of helos would be good and as you have outlined the Afghan experience in your post, it would be psyops coup.

Good thought!;-)

Regarding Mi-35 I have some doubts if this Helicopter is a proper Choice for PA. MI-35 is a Russian made Helicopter, that mean Russia will not sell MI-35 to Pak because of Indian Concerns and I also think it's a Platform which will be expensive to Operate. As a large Attack Helicopter MI-35 will not be well suited for fast Deployment, to Counter Indian Cold Start Doctrine.

Lighter Attack Helicopters like Bell AH-1 Cobra or T-129 can easyly transfered by C-130 Hercules Airlifters if it's neccessary.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The MI 35 is more of a heavy assault helo suited for close support assisted surgical strikes ahead of massed soviet (Old) armored offensives- atleast the HIND was designed to do this.

The today's Indian cold start doctrine requires fast reaction by Anti tank helos flying nap of the earth, shoot and scoot tactics to blunt the armored spearhead in the southern deserts of Pakistan coupled with fast insertion of anti tank blocking teams equipped with Anti tank weapons.

all of the above require smaller fast maneuvering Anti tank helos and T-129 type of platform is ideal. What we require is a scout helo to supplement the attack helos for the hunter killer role.

However, the GWoT is a different matter altogether which clearly requires insertion of troops under suppressing fire. Inserting helos in valleys where you can be targeted by RPG's literally, would require either armed escort helos or armed transport helos and MI-35 is an ideal platform for this.

 

[Babur Han]

For the Role of Scout Helicopter TAI is in Progress to develop light Helicopters, similar in Performence like MD-500. Pakistan can produce these Helicopter in License with TOT, they can be armed with UMTAS and Cirit.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

For the Role of Scout Helicopter TAI is in Progress to develop light Helicopters, similar in Performence like MD-500. Pakistan can produce these Helicopter in License with TOT, they can be armed with UMTAS and Cirit.

Could you give us the specs please and maybe we can do a comparison with the Kiowa type of helo

 

[Babur Han]

Could you give us the specs please and maybe we can do a comparison with the Kiowa type of helo

I can not find any specs oin the Net, please ask Cabatli he have more Information for Sure.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The Bell Kiowa OH 58D ( Basically a Jetranger built to military specs.)


Innovative. Consistent. Unmatched.

Offering unparalleled war-fighting capabilities, the Bell OH-58D Kiowa Warrior delivers the goods on the bad guys. Combat-proven world-wide, in long-range day and night target acquisition, this warrior-lookout claims multiple armaments. With characteristic low infrared and acoustic signatures, as well as multi-purpose quick-change kits, the Kiowa can be armed and ready to fight less than 10 minutes after off-load from a C-130.

Weapons Capability
Universal weapons pylons offer quick-change selection of the helicopter's diverse weapons systems. Each of the helicopter's two pylons can be armed with any of the following:
• Hellfire and anti-tank missiles
• Hydra 70 rockets
• Air-to-air Stinger missiles
• .50-caliber machine gun
Survivability & Crashworthiness

Like no other armed reconnaissance helicopter in the world, the OH-58D survives combat with a countermeasure suite, which includes:
• Infrared seeker jammer
• Pulse and CW radar warning receivers
• Laser warning detectors
• Inherent infrared suppression

Mast-Mounted Sight

The mast-mounted sight enables the Kiowa Warrior to fight both day and night, at the maximum range of its weapons systems - and with minimum exposure. The aircraft remains concealed during all but a few seconds of an autonomous engagement, making it considerably more survivable than gunships with nose-mounted sensors.

Systems inside the mast include:
• High-resolution TV camera for long-range, low-light target detection
• IR thermal imaging sensor for navigation, target acquisition at night or under obscured conditions
• Laser rangerfinder for precise target location and guidance of armament
• Boresight assembly for quick in-flight sensor alignment
Engine Transmission and Rotor

The Kiowa's power train gives the speed, lift and maneuverablilty needed to endure battlefield conditions. Standard on the OH-58D are:
• 458 kw (650 shp) Allison turbine, proven on Bell's commercial model 206 LongRangers, which have amassed tens of thousands of flight hours
• "Ruggedized" transmission with a transient power capability of 475 kw (637 hp)
• Four-bladed main rotor system with all-composite, lifetime rotorblades capable of surviving shell hits up to .50 caliber

Cockpit Electronics

The OH-58D features:
• Video recorder for storing TV and thermal imagery from mission
+ Cockpit playback capability
• Data transfer system with data-loading module for pre-mission storing of navigation waypoints and radio frequencies
• Night vision goggle flight reference symbology display
• Have-Quick UHF and SINCGARS FM anti-jam radio
• Displays to align and fire weapons systems

 

[Aamir Hussain]

More info. on this link:

Federation of American Scientists :: OH-58D Kiowa Warrior

 

[truthseeker2010]

Why is there a need for full infantry division? because there haven't been any air drop of a division size force in a conflict since world war 2.
BTW will they will be specially trained for this type of warfare or will they be just like ordinary infantry.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Why is there a need for full infantry division? because there haven't been any air drop of a division size force in a conflict since world war 2.
BTW will they will be specially trained for this type of warfare or will they be just like ordinary infantry.

they are special..
you might want to read about America's 101 airborne division.. America has extensively used it in all current conflicts.

looking at the sheer size of border we share with a hostile cneighbour, the divison size doesnt look too big.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

As wrong as it sounds, I think its a waste using some of the finest troops in the Army to protect civilian leadership. We should have a dedicated VVIP protection team in the Interior ministry having no links outside of training with the SSG if need be.

this is my biggest misgivings specially when other law enforcement agencies like police and rangers are trained as commandos they are snatched up by the goverments and end up on escort and personal gaurd dutites of the b@stards like Rana Sanah Ullah (the only delcared Terrorist supporter) Punjab Law minister.

you might recall the comments of Punjab IG who said about 97% of the elite squad was on VIP guard duty.

 

[GEMINI]

And that's why that even after having such well trained men in civilian organizations we have to call on the army/FCor rangers to tackle anything in our cities. Be it a bomb blast, any danger of attack or law and order situation.

If these forces like the Elite force are free then we might relieve regular forces.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

We are going off the track here. The Airmobile assets such as US 101st Airmobile are there for quick reaction/insertion options. They are generally classified as light infantry but with its organic air support provided by helicopter gunship assigned to the division.

Pakistan would be better off to develop an Airmobile asset to help it fight the WoT. The very nature of the terrain in the conflict zone areas require heliborne ops. and an airmobile asset would be a plus. Static units assigned to fire bases/forts are easy targets for guerrillas and are counterproductive for the effort but also for the morale of the troops deployed.

Airmobile units generally take the fight to backyard of the enemy where they are not expecting a fight. It is highly skilled art, highly risky but gets the job done specially when doing night ops. This is the Achilles heel of the terr. and PA. If any one area needs to be developed than combined with Airmobile ops, night fighting capability is a must.

We should also look at Specter Gunship to supplement airmobile firepower.

In times of full blown war with a conventional spin, Airmobile ops. are targeted towards, blocking enemy advance to buy time for regular troops to engage with the enemy, disrupt enemy supply chain -(Quick insertion and exit), taking out entrenched enemy antitank assets ahead of a planned advance and taking relatively lightly armed tactical strong points during sector attacks.

These are some of the possible missions that can be carried out by Airmobile assets in times of war.

PA should slowly move towards a mechanized/airmobile army instead of the over whelmingly a static infantry oriented army. Indian army is also organized in the same way but slowly changing. I am afraid, Indians are going to get a qualitative boost in training and employment of western equipment very soon --this is where we had the edge before. This is food for thought.

Another area that both PA and IA lack is night fighting capability. PA should invest heavily not only in equipment but in training in this area. From what little I know, we lack in-depth training with night vision equipment in our Mech. Infantry Units.