PAF's JF-16 Fighter Jet

[Dreamer.]

Agreed. PAF did not feel that J10 gave them any ad antage over JFT. Range was not an issue but there were other issues, engines being a major one. PAF did not feel comfortable with ALE1 FN due to reservations from the Red bear and stories of flame outs. The WS10 was not mature enough and there were reliability issues. Interestingly we now hear J10 will be discontinued in favour of J11/16 series. IF TRUE it is indeed indictment of PAF stance over the issue.
It would also have affected the JFT sales.
A

Why would PAF Stance be Indicted? Did the stance commit a crime?

 

[jupiter2007]

How many countries are still flying JH-7, F-111, Su-24, Jaguars or Tornado? Better still, ask the question that how many countries are buying new uni-role aircraft of this nature? When was the last fighter for a role like that developed? Its easy enough to gather empirical evidence of an outdated concept being passed over by most every country in the world now. The air forces still operating these legacy aircraft are doing so for fiscal reasons only as no one retires prematurely aircraft with life still left in them (unless downsizing) or are countries that can't afford to buy replacement due to geo-political issues (like Syria, Iran). Yet you guys want Pakistan to spend its meager resources on an obsolete POS and have it stuck with for the next 30 years? Wow @MastanKhan ... you don't miss any chance to bash the short-sighted PAF while showing such lousy foresight.
So JF-17 is short-legged? Fine, then buy a larger multirole aircraft like the Su-27 series, F-15, or EF Typhoon/Rafale. But realistically speaking, even mid-sized jets like the M2000, F-16, Mig-29s etc have more than enough range in the context of Pakistan vs India. If you just want endurance for CAPs or patrols, well similar sized jets can manage just fine with A-A refueling.
It doesn't mean you buy an outdated airplane just because it can carry enough fuel but is a dud otherwise. And giving B-52 as an example is not just applicable in the context of a fighter, it shows how little time you have actually spent thinking about this or are trying to mislead on purpose.
And this range issue is being brought up so much, as if the short range (comparatively) of the JF-17 is somehow PAF's Achilles heel. For the targets and bases that will be of most detriment for Pakistan, they are all located close enough for the border that even F-86s were able to make it there and back.
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Defence-Map-of-India.jpg
With today's advantage of having longer range precision weaponry, I don't see how anyone can imagine "deep strikes" by PAF in any scenario beyond IAF forward operating bases and airfields close to the border. Unless you envision thinking of sending them on one-way suicide missions without top cover of course in a heavily monitored and well defended air space...
The only context I can see PAF operating aircraft with longer legs than afforded by F-16s is in the maritime role and in that too, A-A refueling can play a crucial role to compensate for patrols. Otherwise buy a twin-engine aircraft like the Su-35/F-15C/Typhoon that is capable for longer patrols, maritime strikes, and every other role PAF uses its other multirole aircraft and call it a day.

agree

 

[MastanKhan]

If you need a prove you can ask someone from PAF procurement or Defense Attaché at Pakistani Embassy in China.

I can give you a rough timeline of events.
China offered FBC but Pakistan declined that offer. China again offered improved FBC/JH-7 and Pakistan again decline that offer. China offered J-10, Pakistan request improved version. China offered J-10C for 65 millions each but PAF decided against J-10C in favor of JF-17 block3.

Hi,

During the late 90's---china offered the F7PG's---Paf refused---saying it does not meet the standard---the chinese arm twisted and forced Paf tp try it---Paf was surprised what it could do---.

As I wrote years ago---Paf is ruled by F16 mafia---. So---anything doing less in agility is not worth it for them---.

Ther new pilots in the USAF have the same mindset---they all want to fly F16's----.

But saner heads prevail---they will be sent to fly B52's---B1's---A10---and everything in between---why---because someone has to fly them---and the US knows that there is a need for that kind of aircraft---.

Hi,

The JF17 production line is not fast enough---the Paf will not be able to fill in the hole created by obsolete aircraft in a timely manner---.

Which means that Paf will never be in a position to challenege the enemy at full force---and that is what the Paf generals want---.

Keep a low profile---be back of the 8 ball---and you don't have to fight---.

So---the need for the J10 was to fill in the hole in a timely manner---.

The term used by the Paf " it does not bring anything new to the table " is a deceitful term----.

The paf is lying---the J10 brings in extra numbers desperately needed for pakistan's defense.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

During the late 90's---china offered the F7PG's---Paf refused---saying it does not meet the standard---the chinese arm twisted and forced Paf tp try it---Paf was surprised what it could do---.

As I wrote years ago---Paf is ruled by F16 mafia---. So---anything doing less in agility is not worth it for them---.

Ther new pilots in the USAF have the same mindset---they all want to fly F16's----.

But saner heads prevail---they will be sent to fly B52's---B1's---A10---and everything in between---why---because someone has to fly them---and the US knows that there is a need for that kind of aircraft---.

Hi,

The JF17 production line is not fast enough---the Paf will not be able to fill in the hole created by obsolete aircraft in a timely manner---.

Which means that Paf will never be in a position to challenege the enemy at full force---and that is what the Paf generals want---.

Keep a low profile---be back of the 8 ball---and you don't have to fight---.

So---the need for the J10 was to fill in the hole in a timely manner---.

The term used by the Paf " it does not bring anything new to the table " is a deceitful term----.

The paf is lying---the J10 brings in extra numbers desperately needed for pakistan's defense.

PAC Kamra production is plenty fast given that they are involved in other projects in tandem while keeping in the view of how fast PAF can absorb new aircraft. And even if you want them to operate at full capacity, you need to spend money. Its not much different then Al-Khalid production numbers well below the capacity of HIT. Now, notwithstanding the fact that no one here really knows what the fiscal priorities or budgeting is like for PAF, we can assume they know what the most cost-effective solution is for them, viz-a-viz retiring older aircraft, refurbishing others, keeping in view the threat they face while at the same time training and retaining expertise for maintenance and overhauls of JF-17.

Now for your second part about PAF lying, I would say you are being deceitful. If PAF wants more aircraft on a faster basis, i.e. beyond what can be built at Kamra, and given the money is allocated for faster purchases, it would be more prudent for them to buy Chinese built JF-17s instead of J-10s. So no, the argument about J-10 not bringing anything new to the table is very applicable.

 

[MastanKhan]

PAC Kamra production is plenty fast given that they are involved in other projects in tandem while keeping in the view of how fast PAF can absorb new aircraft. And even if you want them to operate at full capacity, you need to spend money. Its not much different then Al-Khalid production numbers well below the capacity of HIT. Now, notwithstanding the fact that no one here really knows what the fiscal priorities or budgeting is like for PAF, we can assume they know what the most cost-effective solution is for them, viz-a-viz retiring older aircraft, refurbishing others, keeping in view the threat they face while at the same time training and retaining expertise for maintenance and overhauls of JF-17.

Now for your second part about PAF lying, I would say you are being deceitful. If PAF wants more aircraft on a faster basis, i.e. beyond what can be built at Kamra, and given the money is allocated for faster purchases, it would be more prudent for them to buy Chinese built JF-17s instead of J-10s. So no, the argument about J-10 not bringing anything new to the table is very applicable.

Hi,

It is Pakistan that needs more aircraft---and not Paf---Paf is a servant of Pakistan----which has let its master down---.

Paf has always failed to be upto the task---one time in 1965 it got the enemy---and is still has not stopped living that dream---. Other than that---all it has is are sob stories---.

My being not deceitful or being deceitful does not mean anything here in this regard---the proof is in front of everyone---and that is not enough aircrafts in numbers---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

During the late 90's---china offered the F7PG's---Paf refused---saying it does not meet the standard---the chinese arm twisted and forced Paf tp try it---Paf was surprised what it could do---.

As I wrote years ago---Paf is ruled by F16 mafia---. So---anything doing less in agility is not worth it for them---.

Ther new pilots in the USAF have the same mindset---they all want to fly F16's----.

But saner heads prevail---they will be sent to fly B52's---B1's---A10---and everything in between---why---because someone has to fly them---and the US knows that there is a need for that kind of aircraft---.

Hi,

The JF17 production line is not fast enough---the Paf will not be able to fill in the hole created by obsolete aircraft in a timely manner---.

Which means that Paf will never be in a position to challenege the enemy at full force---and that is what the Paf generals want---.

Keep a low profile---be back of the 8 ball---and you don't have to fight---.

So---the need for the J10 was to fill in the hole in a timely manner---.

The term used by the Paf " it does not bring anything new to the table " is a deceitful term----.

The paf is lying---the J10 brings in extra numbers desperately needed for pakistan's defense.

Well put; they are still hoping f-16s show up somehow. I do concur there is massive vested interests. What did those new F-16s get PAF? Nothing except for tied up capabilities. WIth jh-7b there is a massive potential plus j10s would have filled in the voids right now - with mothballed Mirages flying; it is essentially 40% worthless numbers on paper.
Sorry friends, words may hurt but it is very clear there was a complete lack of vision and foresight.

 

[MastanKhan]

Well put; they are still hoping f-16s show up somehow. I do concur there is massive vested interests. What did those new F-16s get PAF? Nothing except for tied up capabilities. WIth jh-7b there is a massive potential plus j10s would have filled in the voids right now - with mothballed Mirages flying; it is essentially 40% worthless numbers on paper.
Sorry friends, words may hurt but it is very clear there was a complete lack of vision and foresight.

Hi,

You don't know the whole story then---.

The F16's gets them jobs after they retire---they can become consultants / suppliers for many an air force---they become consultants for lockmart etc etc etc---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

You don't know the whole story then---.

The F16's gets them jobs after they retire---they can become consultants / suppliers for many an air force---they become consultants for lockmart etc etc etc---.

I had to self correct my self when i was writing earlier - i had written vested interest and massive corruption - e.g consultancy and kickbacks galore but deleted it.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

It is Pakistan that needs more aircraft---and not Paf---Paf is a servant of Pakistan----which has let its master down---.

Paf has always failed to be upto the task---one time in 1965 it got the enemy---and is still has not stopped living that dream---. Other than that---all it has is are sob stories---.

My being not deceitful or being deceitful does not mean anything here in this regard---the proof is in front of everyone---and that is not enough aircrafts in numbers---.

Is that the best response you could come up with? Pakistan needs the aircraft and not PAF ... why, what would you do with the said aircraft? put them in town squares or museums ... what a pathetic deflection followed by the same mantra you keep parroting on every thread. You want more aircraft ... shell out the money. Its not that complicated

 

[MastanKhan]

Is that the best response you could come up with? Pakistan needs the aircraft and not PAF ... why, what would you do with the said aircraft? put them in town squares or museums ... what a pathetic deflection followed by the same mantra you keep parroting on every thread. You want more aircraft ... shell out the money. Its not that complicated

Hi,

If you cannot understand what I wrote---that is your problem.

I had to self correct my self when i was writing earlier - i had written vested interest and massive corruption - e.g consultancy and kickbacks galore but deleted it.

Hi,

So you understand very well what the fetish is with the F16---. Why so much attachment to this aircraft---.

The funny thing is that when they had the money to buy the aircraft---they delayed it for 4 years---and then donated it to charity---.

The country's defense requirements meant an immediate purchase after sanctions came off in 2001---.

Paf used every tactic not to buy the much needed aircraft---.

The deceit that the Paf had shown towards the nations integrity is shocking.

It was like a mother was dying---the son did not have money for the medicine---then suddenly the money became available---the medicine was on the shelf---but the son delays buying the medicine.

I do not know that if you knew---after 9/11---sanctions came off---aircrafts become available to pakistan---india is feeling the heat---they decide to come to the peace table getting reay to sign the peace deal---.

4 years had passed by---Paf had not made the deal---an earthquake hits kashmir---.

The Paf air chief decides to donate that money to the earthquake relief fund---then exclaims that we do not have money for aircraft---india walks away from the peace deal---.

There is no example of such treason in modern history of a military wing committing treason against the state in such a manner---.

 

[araz]

Why would PAF Stance be Indicted? Did the stance commit a crime?

HaaHaa. A faux Pa. Good one. I probably wanted to write vindication instead of indictment

Is that the best response you could come up with? Pakistan needs the aircraft and not PAF ... why, what would you do with the said aircraft? put them in town squares or museums ... what a pathetic deflection followed by the same mantra you keep parroting on every thread. You want more aircraft ... shell out the money. Its not that complicated

Agreed. I have not seen the post you responded to so assume it is someone on my ignore list.
The JH7 was evaluated twice at least and rejected as you have mentioned.Period!! People need to move on. Modern day aviation is all about net centric warfare and stand off weapons. The days of bomb trucks are fast receeding. The only reason for some countries using twin engines is either because of travelling over sea or large land mass. PAF cannot afford the luxury of twin engined aircrafts althought 2-3 squadrons would be deeply appreciated for naval ops as well as deep interdictions.
People deriding the decision of buying 16s need to understand the original decision was in 1984 and planning and infrastructure was developed accordingly. PAF now wants to avail any chance of utilizing the facilities and man power developed on the 16s for a bang for the buck solution. One may shout whatever one wants but the original buy of 54 block 52s being reduced to 18 and kept there signifies something which people are not seeing and I dont want to spell out. One could argue we should not have bought them in 84 but seeing the situation in the light of a retrospectoscope is always easier.
A

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

During the late 90's---china offered the F7PG's---Paf refused---saying it does not meet the standard---the chinese arm twisted and forced Paf tp try it---Paf was surprised what it could do---.

As I wrote years ago---Paf is ruled by F16 mafia---. So---anything doing less in agility is not worth it for them---.

Ther new pilots in the USAF have the same mindset---they all want to fly F16's----.

But saner heads prevail---they will be sent to fly B52's---B1's---A10---and everything in between---why---because someone has to fly them---and the US knows that there is a need for that kind of aircraft---.

Hi,

The JF17 production line is not fast enough---the Paf will not be able to fill in the hole created by obsolete aircraft in a timely manner---.

Which means that Paf will never be in a position to challenege the enemy at full force---and that is what the Paf generals want---.

Keep a low profile---be back of the 8 ball---and you don't have to fight---.

So---the need for the J10 was to fill in the hole in a timely manner---.

The term used by the Paf " it does not bring anything new to the table " is a deceitful term----.

The paf is lying---the J10 brings in extra numbers desperately needed for pakistan's defense.

The USAF does not glorify on flying fighters they push for other platforms as well. Top of the class graduates get their choice and on some occasions they ask for transport or bomber aircraft....

F-16 is the numerous one in USAF inventory although a good number of pilots end up on T-38s on long term assignments.

The F-16 is still worth more than anything that's on PAF's roster and it is because it is worth it.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

Hi,

You don't know the whole story then---.

The F16's gets them jobs after they retire---they can become consultants / suppliers for many an air force---they become consultants for lockmart etc etc etc---.

Even u Mastan sahib don't know the full story......if u or the public knew even half of the story as to wts going on with the PAF procurements n how all these so called consultants r looting PAF blind n that too with full knowledge of the brass than u will be shocked n want nothing less than the court martial for all these bast@rds

 

[Dreamer.]

One may shout whatever one wants but the original buy of 54 block 52s being reduced to 18 and kept there signifies something which people are not seeing and I dont want to spell out. One could argue we should not have bought them in 84 but seeing the situation in the light of a retrospectoscope is always easier.
A

Either that or it was perhaps the biggest blunder in PAF history. And for the life of me, I can't figure out which.

 

[MastanKhan]

Even u Mastan sahib don't know the full story......if u or the public knew even half of the story as to wts going on with the PAF procurements n how all these so called consultants r looting PAF blind n that too with full knowledge of the brass than u will be shocked n want nothing less than the court martial for all these bast@rds

Hi,

You are right about that---. Mine is pure and simple assessment thru what I have read---and what I have seen being presented---.

And that has led me to the conclusions that the Paf heirarchy in plain and simple words deceitful---intentionally deceptive and intentionally treasonous towards the nation of pakistan.

That is why in one of my posts I wrote---" the nation of Pakistan needs more potent aircraft for its defense " and why did I not write Paf---because the Paf is being run by traitors---the needs of the traitors are never the same as the needs of the nation---and that is a historical fact---.

For that man who was being sarcastic at my comments---and did not have the ability to understand what I wrote---here is that answer---.