PAF's First Aggressor Unit TDS

[SQ8]

Why do i have a feeling that this is more related to a dedicated unit that will play "enemy" in exercises rather than any twin engine or 7th generation planes that MANY are talking and dreaming of?

@HRK @TaimiKhan @Oscar @araz ??

That is exactly what it is- the rest is just khayali pulao with some taking it as far as shahi biryani with sone ke warq

 

[CriticalThought]

Why do i have a feeling that this is more related to a dedicated unit that will play "enemy" in exercises rather than any twin engine or 7th generation planes that MANY are talking and dreaming of?

@HRK @TaimiKhan @Oscar @araz ??

You are exactly right. This is a copy for USAF's aggressor squadrons which these days comprise F-16s and F-15s

 

[TaimiKhan]

That is exactly what it is- the rest is just khayali pulao with some taking it as far as shahi biryani with sone ke warq

Why do i have a feeling that this is more related to a dedicated unit that will play "enemy" in exercises rather than any twin engine or 7th generation planes that MANY are talking and dreaming of?

@HRK @TaimiKhan @Oscar @araz ??

Oscar has just given the crux of this whole thing. CCS is a place where the top get selected and are further polished.

Since PAF copies a lot from USAF and refines its tactics, this new sqd is gonna be just like how the USAF aggressor sqd works and what gambit mentioned. It will be best of the best and will work as an enemy within PAF. Develop tactics to defeat what PAF guys are taught or how an enemy will perform.

So basically they will try to defeat PAF tactics by thinking out of the box and work as enemy in return PAF will learn further and improve its curriculum.

 

[Arsalan]

I believe exactly this is the case .... few days back I read an article about ACE (unfortunately has lost the link) which describe its formation as the combination of CSS, TDS & one other institute/school (again forgetting the name something related to Weapon) so this development should coincide with new concept of ACE which in my opinion is further refinement & a step beyond CSS as all those institutions were already in existence.

That is exactly what it is- the rest is just khayali pulao with some taking it as far as shahi biryani with sone ke warq

You are exactly right. This is a copy for USAF's aggressor squadrons which these days comprise F-16s and F-15s

Oscar has just given the crux of this whole thing. CCS is a place where the top get selected and are further polished.

Since PAF copies a lot from USAF and refines its tactics, this new sqd is gonna be just like how the USAF aggressor sqd works and what gambit mentioned. It will be best of the best and will work as an enemy within PAF. Develop tactics to defeat what PAF guys are taught or how an enemy will perform.

So basically they will try to defeat PAF tactics by thinking out of the box and work as enemy in return PAF will learn further and improve its curriculum.

And i think it is appropriate to add that all those who were hoping for some new aircraft for aggressor role should not be utterly disappointed if what we are saying is true. What i believe this new unit is supposed to do and what all you have confirmed in the quoted posts above as well is also VERY important and a good step forward in modernization the training of our pilots. Nice addition and i hope this will serve us very well. I hope the best of our pilots are transferred to this unit so the rest of the force have a hard time training against them and that will make the whole force much more proficient.

 

[CHI RULES]

Excellent analysis sir! But I would like to add that Viper and Gripen are the front runners for India's medium weight project. So we have to wait and watch. That said, Thunder was based on a study of Gripen and as you already mentioned, our pilots perform DACT of Viper vs. Thunder probably every day.

The Migs would be an excellent platform for the SU-30 threat. Also, there has been some news that PAF is actively pursuing Russian/Chinese jets so I am pretty confident in this aspect as well.

My main concern is Rafale, and its weapons and EW suit. The M2K-9s from U.A.E. may be a good substitute for the aerodynamics, but we absolutely need to get our hands on the weapons and EW. Specifically, MICA, METEOR, and SPECTRA. We need to know these systems inside out so we can devise strategies against them.

Sir as per views of seniors/pros M2K-9 is good for deep strike missions but not so good in A2A role like Rafael. As for SU30, it is obvious that PAF is since last few years going for exercises with Chinese J11 variants which is supposed to be better version of SU30. Main jet to counter is Rafael for which we may go for induction of new plat form i.e EU fighter jet but an expensive and almost impossible option.

Next two options are either to arm the JF17 block3 with latest gadgets ( European ones equivalent to that of Rafael) so it may compete with IAF Rafael. This option is much achievable but unlikely as PAF/Govt strategy is to go for economy.

The other solution in medium term is to sign agreement for FC31 can be availble in medium term with latest gadgets being nearly finalized by Chinese. ( as J20 limited production has started and FC31 prototypes are already passing through final testing stages.).

 

[TaimiKhan]

[emoji38]







And i think it is appropriate to add that all those who were hoping for some new aircraft for aggressor role should not be utterly disappointed if what we are saying is true. What i believe this new unit is supposed to do and what all you have confirmed in the quoted posts above as well is also VERY important and a good step forward in modernization the training of our pilots. Nice addition and i hope this will serve us very well. I hope the best of our pilots are transferred to this unit so the rest of the force have a hard time training against them and that will make the whole force much more proficient.

This is the first step. U never know what the future holds. May be in future if resources permit we induct or kind of lease jets which simulate enemy aircraft. Chinese J11s can be a good example to mimic Indian Sukhoi's.

These are first steps thus lets welcome them first.

 

[CriticalThought]

And i think it is appropriate to add that all those who were hoping for some new aircraft for aggressor role should not be utterly disappointed if what we are saying is true. What i believe this new unit is supposed to do and what all you have confirmed in the quoted posts above as well is also VERY important and a good step forward in modernization the training of our pilots. Nice addition and i hope this will serve us very well. I hope the best of our pilots are transferred to this unit so the rest of the force have a hard time training against them and that will make the whole force much more proficient.

Historically, USAF has utilized Migs when available aircraft were not a good replica of real threats.

Keeping that in mind, and the recent news that PAF rejected SU-35s due to unavailability of AESA, and doing 2+2=4 it makes perfect sense that some jets from any possible future off the shelf purchase will be allocated here. Note I am not saying they will be purchased for this unit, rather they will be allocated if and when purchased. This should take care of simulating SU-30 threat.

That leaves Rafale and it makes perfect sense that PAF will come up with a clever plan to deal with it.

Finally, I have always maintained that very limited numbers (even as low as 4) of cutting edge jets should be purchased as qualitative drivers. One reason for success of Thunder is PAF's vast experience with Vipers which allowed them to demand a certain level of performance. With increasing indigenization and reliance on jets from a limited pool (Russia. China), there is definitely a risk of losing track of developments in the rest of the world. Nothing beats having actual aircrafts and weapons in inventory, because our pilots can learn exact performance limits and devise strategies. Exercises with friendlies help, but barring a relationship such as China/Pakistan enjoy, they are not a substitute. I have said this elsewhere, but I am concerned enough that I am repeating here. Thankfully I have a more well connected audience here.

 

[The Accountant]

PAF has always operated Bombers in the past... They have their own benefit and capabilities..

At that time pentration into others airspace was not difficult but now with much advance air defence pentration of such a large aircraft is impossible furthermore main utility of this bomber is long range missions which are not required in case of pak india scenario ... they were specially designed by soviet to attack US bases at US main land while flying feom Russia ...

For Pakistan requirement is of fighter bomber and not heavy strategic bomber

 

[Khafee]

Oscar has just given the crux of this whole thing. CCS is a place where the top get selected and are further polished.

Since PAF copies a lot from USAF and refines its tactics, this new sqd is gonna be just like how the USAF aggressor sqd works and what gambit mentioned. It will be best of the best and will work as an enemy within PAF. Develop tactics to defeat what PAF guys are taught or how an enemy will perform.

So basically they will try to defeat PAF tactics by thinking out of the box and work as enemy in return PAF will learn further and improve its curriculum.

Reminded me of the aircraft carrier and the mirages. Thanks!

 

[Dawood Ibrahim]

At that time pentration into others airspace was not difficult but now with much advance air defence pentration of such a large aircraft is impossible furthermore main utility of this bomber is long range missions which are not required in case of pak india scenario ... they were specially designed by soviet to attack US bases at US main land while flying feom Russia ...

For Pakistan requirement is of fighter bomber and not heavy strategic bomber

penetration is always depndant on the recieving party, how far up she can take it

 

[Khafee]

penetration is always depndant on the recieving party, how far up she can take it

I was drinking water, and splurged it all over my laptop. WTF

 

[Mugwop]

 

[khanasifm]

Couple of points Ccs is not same as USN top gun, top gun young pilot are sent to get trained in advance air combat, Ccs is course which senior sqn leaders or wing commanders has to pass before they actually command a sqn and are taught how to fight/ command at sqn / wing level and air campaign. Ccs perhaps mimics usaf red flag [emoji466]️

Ccs do run courses for sqns to rotate where junior or flight lft. and flt off and rest of sqn participates

 

[fatman17]

Question is will it be available for us in near future ? Russian are not showing any flexibility over giving NoC to Chinese to sell their J-series .. And if it happen than buying 2 full sqs of J-11D of the shelf would be a better choice don't you think ?
J-11 can work as prime strike fighter and deep naval striker backed by jf-17's. Both can be link by (link-17) along with ZDK AWACS .

It has a Chinese engine. For avionics and radar, we could install a western suite.

 

[Raider 21]

Couple of points Ccs is not same as USN top gun, top gun young pilot are sent to get trained in advance air combat, Ccs is course which senior sqn leaders or wing commanders has to pass before they actually command a sqn and are taught how to fight/ command at sqn / wing level and air campaign. Ccs perhaps mimics usaf red flag [emoji466]️

Ccs do run courses for sqns to rotate where junior or flight lft. and flt off and rest of sqn participates

Top Gun has evolved a lot, it now has air-to-air, air-to-ground and CAS in the syllabus. And I'm not sure how the CCS course helps with commanding a squadron as for that you have various leadership courses at the Air War College....as I know a couple of who commanded squadrons without ever going through CCS (distant relative was a former Mirage OC and now OC Flying on JF-17s).

Oscar has just given the crux of this whole thing. CCS is a place where the top get selected and are further polished.

Since PAF copies a lot from USAF and refines its tactics, this new sqd is gonna be just like how the USAF aggressor sqd works and what gambit mentioned. It will be best of the best and will work as an enemy within PAF. Develop tactics to defeat what PAF guys are taught or how an enemy will perform.

So basically they will try to defeat PAF tactics by thinking out of the box and work as enemy in return PAF will learn further and improve its curriculum.

CCS always had two dedicated squadrons, often taking the roles of aggressors. Mirages and F-6s (now F-7s) were the two main squadrons, and now a JF-17 squadron is also there, not sure if they're used in aggressor role but definitely in DACT. Yet CCS units can be deployed and utilised for combat if needed......years ago during Gulf War I, No. 14 Squadron on F-16s and a CCS Mirage squadron were given orders to get ready for Desert Storm deployment to the Middle East.....shortly after the orders were revoked.