PAF vs IAF, IN: Aircafts Inventory Situation

[Akh1112]

When will JF-17 Block III be inducted into PAF and what will the yearly production rate be?

12/y

 

[Agha Sher]

At the end of this year

12/y

Thank you - It will be equipped with AESA, right?

What are your thoughts on the production numbers? Will it be enough in the face of IAF arming themselves quite considerable and older PAF aircraft needing retirement?

 

[Akh1112]

Thank you - It will be equipped with AESA, right?

What are your thoughts on the production numbers? Will it be enough in the face of IAF arming themselves quite considerable and older PAF aircraft needing retirement?

PAC has capacity for 24 a year, they can speed up as needed.

 

[Bossman]

Pak needs to order at least 4 EW aircrafts. The Turkish HAVA-SOJ can be a contender….

I think something in this regards in going in based on Bombardier 6000

 

[PDF]

How quickly can PAF replace losses in war through acquiring JF-17s to keep numbers afloat and squadrons up to strength ? F-16s and Mirages cannot be replaced, therefore if a war lasts long enough, which mission roles can JF-17 take over from Mirage and F-16 when their losses incur ?

Pakistan is bound to lose a protracted war. Once a full blown conflict begins, space for conventional warfare is limited to maximum two weeks. PAF can hold the airspace until then and if it suffers many losses, it will bring out F-7Ps and F-7PGs from reserves as point interceptor. Thunders are best used as supplementary fighter aircrafts with F-16s, and Mirages doing the heavy work in their respective domain. Ofcourse, JF-17 is a capable aircraft and if gotten in a position, will fare good, but IMO, PAF has developed tactics in such a way where the right composition of mix assets colluding with AEW&Cs off-set the advantages of IAF.

JF 17 being a light multi-role fighter can only partially fill the gap left from potential losses of Mirages and F-16s. We can't go for deep strikes or take on Air Superiority Su-30MKIs effectively. I believe this is why, Pakistan with its limited resources chose to bring in J10C/P ( I presume) to compensate for already disadvantaged situation. There is a gap of both numbers and capability. PAF just has to cover the overland airspace for two weeks for which it shall be able to, while in the event of tactical or ballistic missile exhanges, PAF will have more concentration to provide maritime coverage.

P.S: I am not the best to narrate the contingencies or probable scenarios. You in fact can provide better opinion especially in relation to EW which will decide the next conflict, if it hasn't already done in the most recent one. PAF has advantage in net-centric capability bu for how long? IAF can easily bridge its gaps within 2-3 years of timeframe, especially with the change in command structure (theatres) etc. It already has less than sanctioned strength which although is con for them but it also makes it easier to manage and revitalize their potential with for focus and resources.

 

[Wood]

How effectively can China replenish PAF resources that are lost in war? I think this will play an important factor. Even if China does not directly open a front with India, they will fully open their inventory to support Pakistan

 

[DJ_Viper]

Pak needs to order at least 4 EW aircrafts. The Turkish HAVA-SOJ can be a contender….

I actually disagree with that. Pak needs serious capability in terms of numbers of additional 4++ jets and soon some 5th gen too. Having 8-10 AEW planes for a small country like Pakistan are more than enough for the next twenty years with constant upgrades coming in from Saab and China. I'd guess that in such time frame, Pakistan would have a local solution in place for it's AEW needs. I'd imagine that K-Eagle AEW + Saab have active learning and R&D ongoing for a future homegrown solution. Future weapons will include Hypersonic weapons and AEW will become useless for those in India and Pakistan's case due to sharing land topology. A hypersonic weapon even at Tier I (Mach 6-6) post firing, will hit the target within less than 1.5 minutes out to 200-300 KM's of the border on each side, leaving ABMS useless due to insane speed.

The immediate need for Pakistan is to procure at least 200 more jets preferably a mix of 4++ Gen and 5th Gen so that it can counter a 3 times larger air force with Rafales, 260+ SU-30's and 150 odd Migs and Mirage 2000. Pakistan needs to keep this in mind, that India, in the next 5 years or so, WILL get stealthy air craft in a similar deal like Australia's submarines deal (-35's I'd guess) and Hypersonic weapons.

 

[KaiserX]

Pakistan has more land attack cruise missiles, more drones, and more long rangle MRL artillery weapons.

Reason being is that these would be used to strike critical forward air bases, C4I communication centers, and SAM sites in the initial outbreak of the war. Taking a huge load off of the PAF giving it more resources to focus on air to air combat, where it excels due to more AWACS, 200+ 4th generation fighters with a radar range of 200km.

Taking into consideration... lets say PAF keeps 5-10% of its resources during war time to secure the afghan-iranian border that leaves PAF with roughly 350 fighters to focus on the IAF. Afghanistan does not have a viable air force and Irans airforce is a none threat to Pakistan. China is a great friend and would more than likely stationed resources on its indian border to take off load from Pakistan.

Taking into consideration Indias bad relations with China, during wartime one can expect the IAF to put at least 25-30% of its resources on the Chinese border and other areas (south most notably).that leaves roughly 450-480 fighters that IAF can realistically field against Pakistan in its wester/northern frontiers. Think about it one cannot compare the threat PLAAF poses to the IAF compared to the threat the Afghan/iranian airforces pose to Pakistan

Lastly the IAF will have far more airspaces, and targets to defend vis via compared to Pakistan. In a real war time scenario PAF will have either numerical superiority or will be at par numbers wise with India for alteast the first week of war.

Now lets compare realistically

PAF 320-350 fighters defending 1/5th the airspace compared to the IAF
IAF 450-500 fighters defending 5x the airspace compared to the PAF

PAF 100+ UCAVs (Burraq, Shahpur, CH4b, WL2) 50+ attack helicopters (Cobras, MI35p, Z-10m)

IAF 30-40? UCAVs (Israeli Harpy/Harop, predators?) 20+ attack helicopters (Apaches)

Now this gap further widen when one takes into consideration IAF has to support twice as many troops/units with half the drones/attack helis as compared to Pakistan.

PAF drones/attack helis will be able to take a large amount of ground operational loads ie air support to ground forces. They will have more airspace to invade and more targets to strike (x5 compared to india). Example pakistan army strike corps will have far more drones/attack heli resources to call in for air support.

IAF drones/attack heli inventory is almost laughable compared to the size of indian armed forces. In war time IAF jaguars and the 2 squadrons of Mirage 2000s will have a very heavy load of them supported Indian ground forces. Indian integrated battle groups lack drone/attack heli resources thus will have to rely on the IAF far more.

If you wanna compare AWAC to fighter jets numbers then the situation the situation is more dire for the IAF. PAF currently has 25 jets for each AWAC available compared to 110 for each awac available for the IAF. Meaning each 25 jets in the PAF have a range of 400km.

At the end of the day PAF has far more bandwith to defends its airspace and provide air support to ground forces compared to the IAF.

This gap will only grow over the next few years. Up until 2025 lets say realistically speaking IAF is able to induct 60 LCA mk2s and another 18 rafales. In the same time period PAF is expected to induct 90 JF17B3s and 50 J10Cs almost doubling its existing 4th generation fleet and fielding possibly x2-3 as many AESA equipped fighter jets as compared to the IAF (especially once 120+ JFB2s are upgraded to B3 standards).

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

Pakistan is bound to lose a protracted war. Once a full blown conflict begins, space for conventional warfare is limited to maximum two weeks. PAF can hold the airspace until then and if it suffers many losses, it will bring out F-7Ps and F-7PGs from reserves as point interceptor. Thunders are best used as supplementary fighter aircrafts with F-16s, and Mirages doing the heavy work in their respective domain. Ofcourse, JF-17 is a capable aircraft and if gotten in a position, will fare good, but IMO, PAF has developed tactics in such a way where the right composition of mix assets colluding with AEW&Cs off-set the advantages of IAF.

JF 17 being a light multi-role fighter can only partially fill the gap left from potential losses of Mirages and F-16s. We can't go for deep strikes or take on Air Superiority Su-30MKIs effectively. I believe this is why, Pakistan with its limited resources chose to bring in J10C/P ( I presume) to compensate for already disadvantaged situation. There is a gap of both numbers and capability. PAF just has to cover the overland airspace for two weeks for which it shall be able to, while in the event of tactical or ballistic missile exhanges, PAF will have more concentration to provide maritime coverage.

P.S: I am not the best to narrate the contingencies or probable scenarios. You in fact can provide better opinion especially in relation to EW which will decide the next conflict, if it hasn't already done in the most recent one. PAF has advantage in net-centric capability bu for how long? IAF can easily bridge its gaps within 2-3 years of timeframe, especially with the change in command structure (theatres) etc. It already has less than sanctioned strength which although is con for them but it also makes it easier to manage and revitalize their potential with for focus and resources.

I do agree with you however consider a formation of 4× block 3s armed with PL 15s and supported by datalinks and AEW&C don't you think such a formation can keep any number of su30s at bay? They will already have an edge in terms of engagement ranges... I think such formations even if they are of light weight aircraft can easily take on su30s armed with R77s but the Indians will have numbers on their side..ultimately it comes to tactics and force multipliers and knowing your strengths any side can win if they know what they are doing...

 

[ziaulislam]

Note 1: All JF 17 BLK 1 are considered upgraded to BLK II standard. All Dual Seater Thunder versions are considered to be Block II-B.
Note 2: (-) Minus sign depicts written off.
Note 3: (==>) Arrow sign shows both written off and depleted current strength.



View attachment 780071
The ratio stands at ≈ 1.8:1 (639+41:378) in India's favor.



View attachment 780072
The ratio stands at ≈ 9:1 in India's favor.



View attachment 780069
The ratio stands at = 2:1 in Pakistan's favor.



View attachment 780070
The ratio stands at ≈ 2.7:1 in India's favor.


Esteemed members are invited to analyze the future projections realistically along with discussing different scenarios vis-a-vis India considering Pakistan has all aircrafts free to direct towards India but India has to retain some airpower for China/Eastern Border. Consider old versions of the mentioned fighters either retired or upgraded and included in the figures;also take average fighter jets availability of Pakistan to be 90% (340 aircrafts)
and of Indians to be 80% (578).[New ratio becomes 578:340 ~ 1.7]. Feel free to catagorize the fleet into their respective squadrons and position them accordingly into the war theatre.

Unsubstantial, trolling, flame-baiting, a couple of lines only posts are to be avoided please.


P.S*: Corrections made.

There is no darin III, migs are grounded

 

[GriffinsRule]

Now lets compare realistically

PAF 320-350 fighters defending 1/5th the airspace compared to the IAF
IAF 450-500 fighters defending 5x the airspace compared to the PAF

PAF 100+ UCAVs (Burraq, Shahpur, CH4b, WL2) 50+ attack helicopters (Cobras, MI35p, Z-10m)

IAF 30-40? UCAVs (Israeli Harpy/Harop, predators?) 20+ attack helicopters (Apaches)

Now this gap further widen when one takes into consideration IAF has to support twice as many troops/units with half the drones/attack helis as compared to Pakistan.

IAF will not be defending an airspace 5 times that of Pakistan. PAF has no reach in central or southern India and in fact most of the fight will be over the same airspace, contested mostly over Pakistan and some of it over the adjoining areas of India.

What Z-10s? Are you thinking Cobras of 1980s will survive in the field against IA AD? Those 34 Apaches (12 for IA) are better than all the Cobra and the 4 Hinds we have. This doesnt include the HAL LCH they are building or the dozen or so Hinds IAF has or the armed version of their ALH, Rudra.

They also have a huge fleet of 200+ Hips, 15 Chinooks, 120+ Dhruv, not even including their nearly 10-1 advantage in fixed wing transports to support their twice large army.

 

[vishwambhar]

I have always observed that many Pakistan members seem to think India has larger airspace to defend or India has larger coast lines to defend and in comparison Pakistan has a small airspace and coast lines to defend.....

Firstly we have to defend large airspace agreed but then by that logic we have very small airspace or coast lines to attack and return back..... This is a luxury during a full blown war which a country with small airspace and coast lines won't have....

This is not an Era where you have to come on horses travel miles and miles and attack..... Today you can attack with a mac speed, score your targets and return.... the geographical size which such guys are considering as their strength is actually their weakness.....

 

[Tornado23]

I have always observed that many Pakistan members seem to think India has larger airspace to defend or India has larger coast lines to defend and in comparison Pakistan has a small airspace and coast lines to defend.....

Firstly we have to defend large airspace agreed but then by that logic we have very small airspace or coast lines to attack and return back..... This is a luxury during a full blown war which a country with small airspace and coast lines won't have....

This is not an Era where you have to come on horses travel miles and miles and attack..... Today you can attack with a mac speed, score your targets and return.... the geographical size which such guys are considering as their strength is actually their weakness.....

Smaller space to defend means your forces wont be stretched thin

 

[The Eagle]

I have always observed that many Pakistan members seem to think India has larger airspace to defend or India has larger coast lines to defend and in comparison Pakistan has a small airspace and coast lines to defend.....

Firstly we have to defend large airspace agreed but then by that logic we have very small airspace or coast lines to attack and return back..... This is a luxury during a full blown war which a country with small airspace and coast lines won't have....

This is not an Era where you have to come on horses travel miles and miles and attack..... Today you can attack with a mac speed, score your targets and return.... the geographical size which such guys are considering as their strength is actually their weakness.....

I wish you read and understand your post in view of history of PAF vs IAF .... History including February, 2019 indeed.

 

[Windjammer]

I have always observed that many Pakistan members seem to think India has larger airspace to defend or India has larger coast lines to defend and in comparison Pakistan has a small airspace and coast lines to defend.....

Firstly we have to defend large airspace agreed but then by that logic we have very small airspace or coast lines to attack and return back..... This is a luxury during a full blown war which a country with small airspace and coast lines won't have....

This is not an Era where you have to come on horses travel miles and miles and attack..... Today you can attack with a mac speed, score your targets and return.... the geographical size which such guys are considering as their strength is actually their weakness.....

Israel is said to be barely 50 miles wide, a jet fighter can cross it in minutes but guess what....smaller airspace means you can concentrate on every mile of it.
You should check how many times Indian airspace gets violated both by China and Pakistan every year without any reaction from the IAF.