PAF Vs IAF Command and Control Systems

[paritosh]

Pretty much all of our front line fighter aircraft will be BVR missile capable. How many kills has r-77 achieved versus Amraam.

i dont know you tell me?
how many kills has the amraam had versus the r-77??

 

[rockstarIN]

Pretty much all of our front line fighter aircraft will be BVR missile capable. How many kills has r-77 achieved versus Amraam.

R-77 is available with few countries for long time

* India
* Russia
* Slovakia
* Ukraine
* Peru
* People's Republic of China

No countries in the above list went on war with anybody, so there is no application of this weapon system.

Meanwhile few more countries getting this weapon with Su-27 & Mig-29SMT sales.

 

[paritosh]

The Sakb and the Al Khalid and Al Zarrar main battle tanks are all being equipped with the Integrated Battlefield Management System (IBMS), a system to track friendly and enemy positions similar to the US Army's Blue Force Tracking.

the arjun, the T-90 and the T-72s use a battle filed management system developed by DRDO and Israel's Ebit which designed BMS for the merkava.

 

[paritosh]

The Pak Army has simplified the hand held for use of ordinary Jawans using icons and help software, so far the Special Forces love it, because it allows the Commander a tactical advantage and is proving essential for missions. This system is being introduced slowly as a force of more than half a million stretches resources.

the special forces would know how to use anything...
the ordinary jawans who are semi-literates need training to even open the help tabs...!
it seems your sole motive is to just prove the Pakistani superiority in everything...

 

[paritosh]

read about this system...

Delhi Police selects Barco for city’s first C4I Surveillance Center

New Delhi, 18 August 2010 – HCL Security Ltd. – a subsidiary of HCL Infosystems, India's premier systems integration company – has chosen Barco to be the visualization partner in a prestigious project to set up a new C4i (Command, Control, Communication, Computing and Intelligence) center in Delhi. The project, due to be completed this month, is to provide a highly sophisticated surveillance system for communication with Delhi patrol officers during the Commonwealth Games 2010.
“We selected Barco for its state-of-the-art solution, advanced technology and local service and support. We appreciate Barco's quick response and efforts to execute this project on time, and we look forward to working on more projects with them in the future,” said Mr. Rothin Bhattacharya, CEO, HCL Security Ltd.

The C4i center will benefit from Barco's latest LED-based technology, consisting of sixteen 50” display cubes along with two 46” Narrow-bezel LCD monitors and the state-of-the-art control room management suite. Nearly 1000 police control room (PCR) vans, 12 police video monitoring vehicles and 700 other monitoring vehicles are to be linked to the center. Live feeds from cameras will be displayed at the center, and threat information – color-coded in red, yellow or green, according to the severity of the threat – will be flashed across the screens. Any suspicious movement, or an emergency, will be spotted at the center and relayed to the local police.

“Barco's technology is being used to ensure the safety of people in more than 100 metropolitan areas throughout the world. We are proud and honored to contribute to the safety of Delhi during the Commonwealth Games 2010,” said Mr. Nalin Advani, Managing Director, Barco India.

About HCL Security Ltd.
Part of the $5 billion HCL Enterprise, HCL Security Ltd. focuses on key verticals of homeland security (city security, border security, and coastal security), critical infrastructure (airports, mass transport, power, shipping ports, and oil pipelines), and enterprise security. The company provides a set of customized world-class solutions that leverage technology to create an Integrated Security Framework for government, infrastructure, and business organizations.

About Barco
Barco, a global technology company, designs and develops visualization products for a variety of selected professional markets. Barco has its own facilities for Sales & Marketing, Customer Support, R&D and Manufacturing in Europe, North America and Asia Pacific. Barco (NYSE Euronext Brussels: BAR) is active in more than 90 countries with about 3300 employees worldwide. Barco posted sales of 638 million euro in 2009.


link:-http://www.barco.com/en/controlrooms/pressrelease/2586/
it seems even the Delhi Police deems C4I as a tool basic enough to be implemented...

 

[grace]

good thread...
this be of something useful ??...FROM janes

Army Radio Engineered Network (AREN) (India), Communication systems - Land

Description
AREN is a tactical area radio communications system that provides Indian ground forces with secure, computerised area grid communication network capabilities. It first entered service in the early 1990s and includes HF and VHF radios at various command levels, microprocessor-controlled radio relay systems and mobile analogue and digital microwave tropospheric scatter systems.A significant element of AREN is the Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) truck-mounted, shelterised trunk exchange known as the Automatic Electronic Switch (see entry Automatic Electronic Switch Mk-II). This can handle 192 digitised voice, 256 teleprinter and 32 digital data channels. The equipment's facilities include multilevel priority pre-emption, automatic disconnection of defective or inactive teleprinters and data terminals and short-test good quality route selection.Other elements of AREN are understood to include the BEL Time Division Modular Exchange or TIDEX (see entry Time Division Modular Exchange (TIDEX)), the Data Concentrator (DC), the Radio Trunk System (RTS), the Radio Local System (RLS) and the Digital Trunk Concentrator (DTC).The DC is a statistical multiplex and concentrator designed to enhance the data communication capability of AREN. It additionally provides data communication integration between the Army Static Switched Communication Network or ASCON (see entry ASCON) and AREN. It can be operated independently to provide data communication connectivity to a large number of subscribers spread over an extended area.The RTS was designed to support commanders in the field. A tactical, digital duplex mobile system comparable to a cellular network, the DTC provides connectivity for 12 subscribers a distance of up to 20 km (in association

Status
AREN has been in service since the early 1990s. The RLS was developed in the early 1990s. The DC underwent user trials in mid-1999.AREN is understood to have been integrated with the Indian Army's Automatic Message Switching/Handling System (AMSS) and Army Static Communication Network (ASCON, see separate entry). In 2005 it was reported that AREN was being supplemented by the construction of a cellular network for field formations.AREN is being replaced by the Tactical Communication System (TCS). The AMSS is being replaced by the Army Wide Area Network (AWAN).It is reported that the TCS is designed as a system meant for offensive operations, and will comprise trunk nodes such as the key bandwidth carrier connection points, terminating at access nodes for Brigade-level communications. From there links will move forward to unit-level command posts at Company level. A number of suppliers have been associated with TCS, although as of the beginning of March 2010 no prime contractor had officially been nominated.

Army Radio Engineered Network (AREN) (India) - Jane's C4I Systems

 

[Rafi]

that pic shows the standard usage of awacs...
it's the job of the awacs systems to guide the pilots and missiles on to the target...most BVR missiles have guidance in stages...
the first stage they are guided by the plane's on-board radar...in the second stage they switch to their own seeker...if they have one...and in the third..they use laser or radio waves for a proximity blast...
using awacs the first stage of the missiles flight is out-sourced to the awacs...
now tell me how is the aim-120 better than the r-77?
or that we lack in C4I?
ar you also bringing in the capabilities of the erieye and the phalcon into this comparative analysis?
please refrain from using open-ended statements while comparing things..

If you check the Erieye video, you would realise that the Link 16 is a data link, which allows F16's to turn their radar off, and the AWAC uses its AESA radar to guide the AMRAAM in.

 

[Rafi]

the arjun, the T-90 and the T-72s use a battle filed management system developed by DRDO and Israel's Ebit which designed BMS for the merkava.

Any info or we just supposed to take your word for it.

 

[silent hawk]

that pic shows the standard usage of awacs...
it's the job of the awacs systems to guide the pilots and missiles on to the target...most BVR missiles have guidance in stages...
the first stage they are guided by the plane's on-board radar...in the second stage they switch to their own seeker...if they have one...and in the third..they use laser or radio waves for a proximity blast...
using awacs the first stage of the missiles flight is out-sourced to the awacs...
now tell me how is the aim-120 better than the r-77?
or that we lack in C4I?
ar you also bringing in the capabilities of the erieye and the phalcon into this comparative analysis?
please refrain from using open-ended statements while comparing things..

Here this picture may explain things better sir. This gives the range of elements which can be integrated with Link-16

As I said before atleast on paper the R-77 and AIM-120 are compareable. The AIM-120 however has seen considerable combat and having a combat proven system is more advantageous.

My post however was about the Link 16. As Rafi has mentioned this allows our fighters to engage IAF without switching thier radar on. The main thing I wanted to show in the initial picture is all around display achieved due to the Link 16.

As the second picture shows the Link 16 also takes the F-16 picture to C4I systems and vica versa. This is a tremendous force multiplier.

IAF is developing its own tactical data link according to posts, however it shall be a long time before it can match the fully operational combat tested Link-16.

Simply sir this is another area where IAF is lacking in C4I.

 

[rockstarIN]

Here this picture may explain things better sir. This gives the range of elements which can be integrated with Link-16

As I said before atleast on paper the R-77 and AIM-120 are compareable. The AIM-120 however has seen considerable combat and having a combat proven system is more advantageous.

Off topic but,

Not all fired AIM-120s hit the targets, a Iraqi Mig-25 evaded at least 5-6 ARMRAAMs to escape to Iran in the gulf war.

But R-77 never fired in a combat..

 

[silent hawk]

Off topic but,

Not all fired AIM-120s hit the targets, a Iraqi Mig-25 evaded at least 5-6 ARMRAAMs to escape to Iran in the gulf war.

But R-77 never fired in a combat..

Operational History of AIM-120 From Wikipedia

The AMRAAM was used for the first time on 27 December 1992, when an USAF F-16D shot down an Iraqi MiG-25 that violated the southern no-fly-zone. AMRAAM gained a second victory in January 1993 when an Iraqi MiG-23 was shot down by a USAF F-16C.

The third combat use of the AMRAAM was in 1994, when a Republika Srpska Air Force J-21 Jastreb aircraft was shot down by a USAF F-16C that was patrolling the UN-imposed no-fly-zone over Bosnia. In that engagement at least 3 other Serbian aircraft were shot down by USAF F-16C fighters using AIM-9 missiles (see Banja Luka incident for more details). At that point three launches in combat resulted in three kills, resulting in the AMRAAM being informally named "slammer" in the second half of the 1990s.

In 1998 and 1999 AMRAAMs were again fired by USAF F-15 fighters at Iraqi aircraft violating the No-Fly-Zone, but this time they failed to hit their targets. During the spring of 1999, AMRAAMs saw their main combat action during Operation Allied Force, the Kosovo bombing campaign. Six Serbian MiG-29 were shot down by NATO (4 USAF F-15C, 1 USAF F-16C, 1 Dutch F-16A MLU), all of them using AIM-120 missiles (the kill by the F-16C may have happened due to friendly fire, from SA-7 MANPADS fired by Serbian infantry).[12]

As of mid 2008, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has shot down nine enemy aircraft (six MiG-29, one MiG-25, one MiG-23, and one Soko J-21 Jastreb).[12]

The AMRAAM was also involved in a friendly-fire incident when F-15 fighters patrolling the Southern No-Fly Zone inadvertently shot down a pair of U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopters.[13]

In early 2006 the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) ordered 500 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles as part of a $650 million F-16 ammunition deal to equip the PAF's F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16A/B MLU fighters.

Pakistan Air Force get the first 3 F-16 Block 52+ on 3 July 2010 and 1st batch of AMRAAMs on 26 July 2010.[15]
.

Some Migs have avoided it but a lot have not. The main target as can be seen have been Mig 29s

Every one has a right to his own opinion but really as far a combat proven systems do have an edge and hence the AIM-120 is better than the R-77.

 

[rockstarIN]

@Silent hawk,

So far I understand from here as well as from other sources C4I system concept basically a western war concept and it was tested and was successful in Gulf war and it is the US war doctrine to be network centric.

Regarding IAF systems, should remember India was in Soviet side and our most of the weapon systems are soviet oriented till 1990.

After the gulf war and Soviet fall, we started to modernize each and every area, and the modern control systems evolved recently only, after 1990. You can see the changes in the communication era. For e.g our MKI is able to use GPS as well as Russia's Gloness systems. And in comparison with US, Russian communication system is not bad at all, remember they are the best in Anti Ballistic and space capabilities.

Rather India is a huge country , we do not need to be fully network centric, but in region wise, which is more practical and the only requirement. And there will be different levels of communication systems for the armed forces. BSNL is preparing an additional fiber optic network only for the Armed forces to use in case of emergency.

Every country should have their own communication systems else it is prone to attack if the enemy knows the systems very well.

What do you think of China? do they have C4I systems, may be they have their own systems rather than going for proven western systems along with their satellites linked to it, so is the case of Russia.


And finally, how much will it cost a full fledged C4I system to integrate? any idea?

It is not a rocket science to integrate, go thru the below..

Iraq ? Order for US made C4ISR systems

It will cost only $68 million, but it depends upon how big is the armed forces..

Regards,

 

[rockstarIN]

Some Migs have avoided it but a lot have not. The main target as can be seen have been Mig 29s

Every one has a right to his own opinion but really as far a combat proven systems do have an edge and hence the AIM-120 is better than the R-77.

The Migs which was shot down by AIM was sitting ducks, they even do not aware that the missile is fired at them..All are very old sytems, though AIM was updated from time to time from the experiance learned from the combat.

Apart from that, R-77 has more range, have a duel passive seeker.(I read recently SD-10 incorporated the same )

 

[rockstarIN]

@Silent Hawk,

Here is some details about our indigenous C4I system news...

BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010

BEL will arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR capability at Defexpo 2010. It will show its Multi Sensor Data Fusion for Army application.

This system collects information from multiple sensors and carries out data alignment, data association and data fusion to introduce a new target / update an existing target in the system. The other is of the Correlation and Coastal Surveillance Security.

Among other products on display will be the Multi-Function HHTI HandHeld Thermal Imager (HHTI). It is a cooled Thermal Imager based integrated day / night sight with in-built eye-safe Laser Range Finder, Digital Magnetic Compass, Colour CCD and GPS. This equipment is capable of giving range, azimuth and elevation as also co-ordinates of the target. This is highly useful to the Infantry, Artillery and Mechanized Forces for effective engagement of targets.

BEL will also display a model of Akash, the guided missile air defence weapon system. The Akash Weapon System is a medium-range, surface-to-air missile system, which provides air defence against multifarious air threats to mobile, semi-mobile and static vulnerable forces and areas. It is among the best in the SAM class of weapon systems.

BEL is constantly innovating to manufacture state-of-the-art professional electronic equipment and components for the international as well as domestic markets. BEL manufactures a wide range of Military Communication Systems, Radars and Sonars, Naval Systems, Telecom & Broadcast Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, Tank Electronics, Opto Electronics, Professional Electronic Components and Solar Powered Systems.

At Defexpo 2010, BEL will display selected products and equipment from its wide range which have very good export potential. BEL will also showcase its strengths in and facilities for world-class contract manufacturing.

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensenews.jsp?n=BEL to arrange technology demonstration of its C4ISR systems at Defexpo 2010&id=4126

 

[silent hawk]

@Silent hawk,

And finally, how much will it cost a full fledged C4I system to integrate? any idea?

It is not a rocket science to integrate, go thru the below..

Iraq ? Order for US made C4ISR systems

It will cost only $68 million, but it depends upon how big is the armed forces..

Regards,

The price shown is only for some C4I equipment. I will not be able to give a link for the data below so those who want to believe may and those who do not may not.

When PAF went for Pakistan Air Defence System 2000 (PADS 2000) first of the import option was tried out. The desired system was costing 1.2 Billion Dollars in 1999. Considering inflation you may work out the cost today. This is one major reason why Project Vision was tasked to indiginously develop PAFs C4I system.