PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[Sapper]

I agree whole heartedly with Sapper about enemity and preparing for the worst. See , vested interests on both side HAVE been playing up this enemity and making it into something it is not. When I was a young boy I used to think that a Pakistani was a tall bearded blood thirsty scoundrel who killed innocent women and children!!! Point being if a ten year old thinks that there must be something wrong. I am sure it would have been similar in Pakistan. It is the internet which has opened up avenues. I also salute Sapper for his sincerity in admitting that most Pakistanis are SCARED of India. Now if this be true, then I believe it must be India who has to work to dispel this fear. Having said this, I wont comment on the political, or realistic possibility in this ever happening.
I dont agree with Red Dwarf in the fact that the Kashmir issue cannot be resolved through talks. It may or may not be. But a war takes a lot decision making and escalation matrices are made. I frankly do not think any realistic commander will ever WILLINGLY start an ALL OUT war KNOWING fully well that it may become nuclear. Also I dont think India will EVER attempt to destroy Pakistan. India is NOT such a nation. All the posturing aside, I believe this to be a fact.
And finally a factor which MAY prove to be common to both in the future is TERRORISM. This soon will be the single most potent and terrifying enemy that we both will have to face. Now I am ready to believe that some terrorism on either side may be sponsored by the other, bit not all. And the terrorism(actual not sponsored) is only going to be on the rise. Now whether India and Pakistan join hands or not on this only time will tell, but it is a problem which can be most efficiently tackled by joining hands.

After all this can some one tell me more about the latest Pakistani acquistions in the field of Military aviation? other than the jf-17. ??

Dear,

We (Pakistanis) have vested interest to preserve our freedom, Independence, sovereignty and most of all, our identity i.e. Pakistan. We will go to any lengths to save our Motherland from any threat, both internal or external.

We have already suffered a great great loss when our Internal politics and rivalries allowed India to exploit our brethren in East Pakistan to break our unity. We will never make that mistake again !!! Never ever ... and don't ever think that India has never tried it again. My father and mother have both served in Pak Army (both are retired Lt. Col) and lots of my friends and family are still in service. We have lots and lots of evidence on Indian involvement in Baluchistan (since mid-late 70's), in AJK (since 80's) and in NWFP (since early 2000's). We are SCARED that soon we will have to defend our motherland against aggression once again, and we will have to defend our unity once again.

You have already gotten an good idea of how much i hate war (from my previous post), and how afraid i am that the next war will bring unimaginable destruction to both sides, but mark my word, Pakistan Army will never try to instigate an all-out war with India. On the other hand, it will always try to come at par with Indian Army to prevent any misadventures from foe.

Do you know that a massive land attack was found imminent on Bahawalpur sector (early this year, during surgical strikes hype), and timely intelligence enacted army to mobilize its infantry and armored brigades as well mobilization of cobra gunships and PAF squadrons to undisclosed FOBs. I have on good authority that these actions were taken only hours/days before the Indian offensive was expected, and monitoring these actions, the Indian Army calling its troop movements an exercise called off its troops from the border. It could have possibly been to force Pakistan to call off its troops from Swat (Operation Rah-e-Rast) to safeguard its investment in militants there. But either way, another war was almost thrust upon Pakistan by India, across international border, thankfully the events unfolded in both of our favor (India+Pakistan), we dodged a bullet ... but that might not be the situation next time.

I pray for both of our sake that we don't have to face war between India and Pakistan.



and lastly on terrorism ...

Terrorism is an evil beyond belief, beyond reason but not beyond comprehension. Terrorism has its roots in illiteracy, poverty and injustice. India is way ahead than Pakistan in all these aspects and thus will face very few terrorism incidents from some hardliner factions who are working for some bigger-than-self cause (e.g. freedom movements, racial movements etc). Pakistan will continue to face terrorism in much greater frequency, but it will start to die down after their strongholds in FATA are thwarted and supply lines cut. After USA leaves Afghanistan, it will subside even more rapidly. But, as long as Pakistan has the current high levels of illiteracy and poverty, a few incidents are bound to happen.

Regards,
Sapper
May Peace prevail between all nations, races and creeds of this Earth.

 

[Windjammer]

All the policies you listed above are defensive and not offensive.

You remind me of Mrs. Indra Gandhi, as she is on record for saying
"Indian Forces have entered East Pakistan in.......... Self Defense. !!????

 

[RiazHaq]

The following post was written by Retd. Air Vice Marshall Ayaz Khan of PAF in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks last year, when India threatened to launch air strikes in Pakistan:

Air power is likely to play a key, if not a decisive, role in any future major or minor India-Pakistan armed conflict. The aim of Indian pre-emptive strikes will be the maximum destruction by surprise air attacks, combined with shock commando action. A possible scenario is intensive bombing of the target to be followed by attacks by armed helicopters and ground assault by heliborne commandos.

An overview of Indian Air Force and Pakistan Air Force will help comprehension of IAF’s offensive capabilities, and the defensive capabilities of Pakistan Air Force. Indian Air Force has 3000 aircraft including training, transport, helicopters and 800-1000 combat aircraft, which operate from sixty air bases, including the Farkhor airbase in Tajikistan. Six hundred IAF’s strike and air defense fighters are expected to be operational. Pakistan Air Force has 630 aircraft, which include 530 combat aircraft, with 400 operational at any time.

In 1996 India signed an agreement with Russia for the purchase of 90 Su 30 Mk-1 multi-role fighter-bombers. In 2004 a multi-billion license was signed for building additional 140. 240 Su30-Mk-1's were ordered, 120 are already in service. With a maximum speed of Mach 2.3 and range of 8000 Km with refueling and ability to carry tons of conventional munitions and nuclear weapons, it is a lethal and menacing weapon system for the strike and interception role. Other IAF’s advanced strike and combat aircraft are: 51 Mirage-2000 (of Kargil fame), 60 Mig-29's (for air defense), 250 old Mig-21's (110 have been refurbished with Israeli help), 47 Jaguars and 70 Mig-27's for ground attack. 220 LCA Teja’s under manufacture at HAL Bangalore will start entering service in 2010. IAF’s fighter pilots are well trained and have out shone American pilots during joint exercises.

Pakistan Air Force has 200 rebuilt Mirage- 3's (for night air defense) and Mirage-5's for the strike role. They can carry nuclear weapons. They have been upgraded with new weapon systems, radars, and avionics. Additionally, the PAF has 42 F-16's, 150 F-7's including 55 latest F-7 PG’s. Manufacture of 150 JF 17 Thunder fighters (jointly designed) is underway at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra. The JF-17 Thunder is a 4th generation fly by wire multi-role fighter aircraft. Eight are already in PAF service. An order has been placed with China for the purchase of 36 JF-10, a Mach 2.3 -5th generation multi-role fighter, comparable in performance to the Su-30 Mk-1 with the Indian Air Force.

PAF is on Red Alert, and is maintaining full vigil to intercept and destroy IAF intruders. During the recent air space violation, the IAF intruders were in the sights of PAF’s F-16's, but were allowed to escape unscathed to avoid a major diplomatic crisis.

PAF pilots and technicians are well-trained professionals, who will be able to prove their mettle in the future battle with India.

Haq's Musings: India-Pakistan Military Balance

 

[normalindiancitizen]

Dear,

We (Pakistanis) have vested interest to preserve our freedom, Independence, sovereignty and most of all, our identity i.e. Pakistan. We will go to any lengths to save our Motherland from any threat, both internal or external.


Do you know that a massive land attack was found imminent on Bahawalpur sector (early this year, during surgical strikes hype), and timely intelligence enacted army to mobilize its infantry and armored brigades as well mobilization of cobra gunships and PAF squadrons to undisclosed FOBs. I have on good authority that these actions were taken only hours/days before the Indian offensive was expected, and monitoring these actions, the Indian Army calling its troop movements an exercise called off its troops from the border. It could have possibly been to force Pakistan to call off its troops from Swat (Operation Rah-e-Rast) to safeguard its investment in militants there. But either way, another war was almost thrust upon Pakistan by India, across international border, thankfully the events unfolded in both of our favor (India+Pakistan), we dodged a bullet ... but that might not be the situation next time.

I pray for both of our sake that we don't have to face war between India and Pakistan.



Dear Sapper,
I dont know how to convince you differently. I can honestly truthfully say that no offensive had been planned to be carried out in any sector in the last year or the year before by India. I dont know what your authority is on the subject but its just not true. After the Mumbai attacks most Indians were very very angry, and a lot of it was directed at Pakistan, but did India do anything militarily against Pakistan? NO. And its not International pressure, India is a large, reactive(not pro-active) nation with a lot of inertia.
You really have to be in India to understand what I am trying to say. We would never take the first step, and DEFINETLY not aginst PAKISTAN as a whole. Yes we have always been prepared and will continue to be, but we are NOT and WILL NEVER be aggressive.
You see, whenever there is an issue only certain bits of information is let out to the peolple, both inIndia and Pakistan, thus the blame is squarely put on the other. Here we are thinking that You are aggressive and may need to be curbed, and there you are thinking we will attack, isn't this just the wy the US and USSR were gering up in the cold war under tremendous uncertainities and distrust? This is what I meant by vested interests, the people who let only SELECTIVE pieces of informtion pass through. NOT your freedom.
Well I guess we have digressed considerably from the topic of this thread.


Well just asking for informed views, who do you think are better pilots TODAY, Indians or Pakistanis? And what is the basis for whatever your answer may be. This is open to all...

 

[Sapper]

Dear Sapper,
I dont know how to convince you differently. I can honestly truthfully say that no offensive had been planned to be carried out in any sector in the last year or the year before by India. I dont know what your authority is on the subject but its just not true. After the Mumbai attacks most Indians were very very angry, and a lot of it was directed at Pakistan, but did India do anything militarily against Pakistan? NO. And its not International pressure, India is a large, reactive(not pro-active) nation with a lot of inertia.
You really have to be in India to understand what I am trying to say. We would never take the first step, and DEFINETLY not aginst PAKISTAN as a whole. Yes we have always been prepared and will continue to be, but we are NOT and WILL NEVER be aggressive.
You see, whenever there is an issue only certain bits of information is let out to the peolple, both inIndia and Pakistan, thus the blame is squarely put on the other. Here we are thinking that You are aggressive and may need to be curbed, and there you are thinking we will attack, isn't this just the wy the US and USSR were gering up in the cold war under tremendous uncertainities and distrust? This is what I meant by vested interests, the people who let only SELECTIVE pieces of informtion pass through. NOT your freedom.
Well I guess we have digressed considerably from the topic of this thread.


Well just asking for informed views, who do you think are better pilots TODAY, Indians or Pakistanis? And what is the basis for whatever your answer may be. This is open to all...

Dear,

I know i can never convince you ... and i don't want to either ... but to all those who want to keep eyes open for facts ... i wanted to convey a simple fact ... there was a major LAND offensive planned in southern Punjab sector (we call it Bahawalpur sector) and rest assured that my sources are not media (Pakistani and Indian both) ... my sources are "serving" army personnel who were "involved" in the emergency maneuvering of pakistani defense forces to bahawalpur sector under "imminent" threat of attack.

I know you will never know about the story on Indian side until you confirm it from the people who were actually involved in the "planned" land offensive (read serving personnel who were mobilized) ... i am dead sure of the facts from my side of the border. I can offer no more information as the details shall not be discussed on this forum, or any other forum for that matter.

Consider the matter closed from my side ... only rest assured that we have our eyes open, you try to do the same.

 

[TOPGUN]

If it comes to it we will be wating !

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Dear Sapper,
I dont know how to convince you differently. I can honestly truthfully say that no offensive had been planned to be carried out in any sector in the last year or the year before by India. I dont know what your authority is on the subject but its just not true. After the Mumbai attacks most Indians were very very angry, and a lot of it was directed at Pakistan, but did India do anything militarily against Pakistan? NO. And its not International pressure, India is a large, reactive(not pro-active) nation with a lot of inertia.
You really have to be in India to understand what I am trying to say. We would never take the first step, and DEFINETLY not aginst PAKISTAN as a whole. Yes we have always been prepared and will continue to be, but we are NOT and WILL NEVER be aggressive.
You see, whenever there is an issue only certain bits of information is let out to the peolple, both inIndia and Pakistan, thus the blame is squarely put on the other. Here we are thinking that You are aggressive and may need to be curbed, and there you are thinking we will attack, isn't this just the wy the US and USSR were gering up in the cold war under tremendous uncertainities and distrust? This is what I meant by vested interests, the people who let only SELECTIVE pieces of informtion pass through. NOT your freedom.
Well I guess we have digressed considerably from the topic of this thread.


Well just asking for informed views, who do you think are better pilots TODAY, Indians or Pakistanis? And what is the basis for whatever your answer may be. This is open to all...

Its nice to know that India is trying to be a humble enemy but my dear friend its a bit different then what you think. Both India and Pakistan will attack each other first if its strategically fruitful.
Why India didn't get into a fight last year is a bit of self generated confusion by India her self and a bit of high risk.

The Indian dream of a surgical strike came to an end the day some F-7Ps were deployed at PAF base Lahore. This deployment was an utter disregard to war plans and a message of a complete suicidal air warfare from PAF.

On the Ground the situation was a chaos, The Indian Army commanders were not focused on one decision. Some wanted to go back to the same Sunderji doctrine while some were in favor of Cold start. and the bitter fact was both were far from achievement. Cold start was limited to only paper work and the massive fuel and ammo dumps were not available, although indian army had practiced it. The sunderji traditional war required several months of deployment, so that was also out of question.

Another major issue was that attacking Pakistan in the name of Taliban would bring Pak govt. and Taliban close and India would become the target of a massive rugged Taliban force in Kashmir.

Last was the fear of losing the newly constructed Bhagyar dam (sorry if i dont know the name properly) because it was the perfect and most suited target option for Pakistan in case of an Indian surgical strike .

There are no humble enemies, its just that our both countries are waiting for the right time and right political aim

 

[Storm Force]

I agree i don,t think the Indians have the Knowledge and strategic thinking to launch a pre emptive air strike. #

They are building up a very good strike arsenal with SU30MKI brahmos missles and carriers with mig29kS AND SOON WILL I THINK INDUCT either the rafael or the super hornets.

BUT i,m not convinced THEY CAN PLAN & EXECUTE a massive air strike like their close allys could ie ISRAEL.

" How ever if the Israelis coordinated and helped them plan this AND THE USA gave the wink to go ahead (even jamming PAF radars ) WHO KNOWS india may JUST GROW THE balls to have ago

 

[FulcrumD]

I agree i don,t think the Indians have the Knowledge and strategic thinking to launch a pre emptive air strike. #

They are building up a very good strike arsenal with SU30MKI brahmos missles and carriers with mig29kS AND SOON WILL I THINK INDUCT either the rafael or the super hornets.

BUT i,m not convinced THEY CAN PLAN & EXECUTE a massive air strike like their close allys could ie ISRAEL.

" How ever if the Israelis coordinated and helped them plan this AND THE USA gave the wink to go ahead (even jamming PAF radars ) WHO KNOWS india may JUST GROW THE balls to have ago

We planned and executed all these 39 years ago with excellent results,we always had b***s,it's the right time that we are waiting for.

 

[ice_man]

We planned and executed all these 39 years ago with excellent results,we always had b***s,it's the right time that we are waiting for.

right time to what back stab??? make us believe in this "AMAAN KI ASHAA" and then go for the back stabbing?

for your information we have been here my friend for more than 60 years EYE BALL to EYE BALL with you indians and we are still here standing upto you that my friend is an achievement that only your close friend "israel" can boast about! you are more than 1 billion strong if you could so easily as you claim crush us you would have by now! but we are not Palestian or Iraq or any small nation that you can attack at will!

like our JCSC General Tariq Majeed said " Indians know what they can't do & what Pakistanis can do"

 

[FulcrumD]

Even your Generals know what India can do,they have already experienced that in '71,'99 and in '84 at Siachen,it's high time to stop bhashanbaazi from the corrupt and total inept Generals that you people adore so much.Answering your question,these "Aman ki Asha "and similar kind of activities are the brainchild of some morons on both sides whose efforts have been flushed down the toilets by your Generals 'cause they believed they can muscle out Kashmir without getting bruised themselves,well the realities were far more bitter for them.That's why we wait and watch from a distance and be prepared since we don't trust your corrupt Generals.

Peace in the end.....

 

[Babur Han]

Even your Generals know what India can do,they have already experienced that in '71,'99 and in '84 at Siachen,it's high time to stop bhashanbaazi from the corrupt and total inept Generals that you people adore so much.Answering your question,these "Aman ki Asha "and similar kind of activities are the brainchild of some morons on both sides whose efforts have been flushed down the toilets by your Generals 'cause they believed they can muscle out Kashmir without getting bruised themselves,well the realities were far more bitter for them.That's why we wait and watch from a distance and be prepared since we don't trust your corrupt Generals.

Peace in the end.....

I hope you are clear which Consequences have a possible War for both Countries ?


Pakistan as well as India have Nuclear Weapons their Invertory, when this Weapons will be used in Case of War it would be devastating for both Countries. At the End there is no Winner !

 

[illuminatus]

I hope you are clear which Consequences have a possible War for both Countries ?


Pakistan as well as India have Nuclear Weapons their Invertory, when this Weapons will be used in Case of War it would be devastating for both Countries. At the End there is no Winner !

You're talking to a brick wall. Some Indian leaders actually believe that they could win a nuclear war against Pakistan. Even if that means a loss of hundreds and millions on their side. How do you go about confronting such a crazy doomsday notion?

 

[Jako]

Yeah right a doomsday nation which has a no first use policy....if nuclear war ever happens,pakistan would be the one to blame for their nefarious doctrines and claims.

 

[Moorkh]

If it comes to it we will be wating !

you will end up waiting till eternity my friend