PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[mean_bird]

MastanKhan and MaximMarz,

Look, there are many ways of information...some are true from which you can benefit a lot and some are false which just keeps misleading people.

I believe every aviation enthusiast and everyone using the internet in general knows that there are lots of superb material out there as well as loads and loads of bullcr*p. Therefore, everyone should take care before accepting what is being posted and what is being claimed.

I am sure none of you will disagree on this.

Now the best sources of information are: Books, journals, etc---things that are peer reviewed and published by reputable people and publishers, then there are also people who are involved in such things and have first hand information....but there are also lots of quacks and false-pretenders.

In order for someone to pass as a reliable person, he/she first has to have to establish his/her reputation as one. If people are claiming something to be "confidential" or they cannot reveal their sources, I ask general information. If you cannot even proof that, then I am afraid I have a hard time believing a word that comes out from such a person. In addition to that, no reasoning, or working formula, etc has been provided that could support the claim.

Call me different, arrogant, stubborn, or whatever but I have an inquisitive mind and I believe no one should be accepting stuff without logic or proof. In the end, some of you may think everything that is posted is correct or every claim is correct----which is your point of view---but I have learned not to digest that.

 

[Zob]

alright mean bird and Maximarz....cool down... i know both of u r right in ur own specific way....i am just suggesting something why don't u post counter clains mean bird backed by facts once u do so i think maximarz will have 2 quieten down and if u can't then i guess u better quieten down...instead of just throwing sh*t at each other....ohh well just my opinon but stop taking cheap shots at each other boys....both of u guys have alot of knowledge let's not think from the balls here and use our brains.... thanx

 

[MastanKhan]

Call me different, arrogant, stubborn, or whatever but I have an inquisitive mind and I believe no one should be accepting stuff without logic or proof. In the end, some of you may think everything that is posted is correct or every claim is correct----which is your point of view---but I have learned not to digest that. "Mean-Bird "


Hi,

It is not a prefered way of portraying yourself on public forum---but then you are your own boss.

One of the most important things that I learnt in my earlier days in the u s was--- ( I lived in the rocky mountain area---mostly country folks---good hearted people )--- you can believe whatever someone says to you---unless you know for a fact that it is otherwise---. You don't have to act upon it---you can always be cautious---you can always find your own answers---but you can't call someone else a liar. It is just like a scenario that in two similiar accidents---one person walks out without any injury---and another person in another similiar accident is taken to the morgue with a broken neck. So---now whose truth would one believe in.

But you have to keep civility upon disagreement---one also needs to differentiate between a BOOK JOCKEY and a FIELD JOCKEY.

 

[maverick2009]

Firstly i will confess I am not as Knowledgable as some of you guys and am New to the Forum. !!!!!!!!!!!

But if you are analysing IAF V PAF wud it not make sense to compare

JF17 /J10 combo versis SU30MKI rather than F16.

From my point of veiw these will be the most numerous planes in each inventory. #

F16 only no 44 & won,t go beyond 60 approx with PAF at this moment declining a further batch of 18. block52s and ordering 36 FC20 recently.

JF17 nos quoted in here are massive ranging from 50 right thru to 250+

SU30 MKI we all know will be around 190 -230 max..

5 squadons of Su30mki are in service Today already

 

[nikhil]

to counter IAF , PAF needs modern airplanes, 4 that,money. 4 that, stronger economy.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

to counter IAF , PAF needs modern airplanes, 4 that,money. 4 that, stronger economy.

In that case PAF will resort to :
1. Synergy
2. Coordination
3. Hit the CGs only
4. Raise the Cost of war
5. Raise the cost of victory for IAF

 

[qsaark]

Now the best sources of information are: Books, journals, etc---things that are peer reviewed and published by reputable people and publishers

That is how a Scientist thinks. If you are not one, try to be one. You have the 'germs' we look in our 'prospective' post-grad candidates.

 

[mean_bird]

That is how a Scientist thinks. If you are not one, try to be one. You have the 'germs' we look in our 'prospective' post-grad candidates.

Thank you for the compliment qsaark. Just out of curiosity, what is your occupation?

 

[qsaark]

Thank you for the compliment qsaark. Just out of curiosity, what is your occupation?

I hold a MS in Biochemistry, a PhD in Molecular Microbiology, and a 4 years Post Doctoral experience in Molecular Virology (Human retro viruses - HIV that causes AIDS). In a nutshell, I am a researcher. When I first entered in US, the guy looked at my forms and said "Hum, you make bugs, do ya, good ones or the bad ones?".

 

[qsaark]

To Mastan Saheb:

Hi Mastan Saheb,

First of all I am not taking any sides. I read your posts when I have ample time to go through each and every word for they give me so much knowledge. And same is also true for everyone on this forum who exhibits greater depth and understanding of the subject than I have (which is rudimentary in any case). So whatever you have said is right (sar aankhon par), but allow me to add that for certain curious minds, just presenting information is not enough. For example my 5 years old, whenever I tell him something, he always wants to know exactly how I have come to that conclusion. He doesn't like to take my words for granted. This is the new generation, not like ours. I dared not to question my parents and teachers; every word of theirs was a law for me. But this generation is very different, and allow me to say very better generation.

I respect Maxim for his knowledge, and I do take most of his words for granted because they make sense to me. However there are times when you really want to ask "how" you came to this conclusion?, "what" do you have to support your claim?, "when" this happened? kind of questions. Pakistan Air Force is not the only Air Force; this is not the only Air Force that operates F-16s, or other hardware for that matter. Other Air forces also carry out regular exercises and the results obtained from those are duly recorded for reference. These results regularly get published in defense related Journals, and such information are shared with the manufacturers. Which in turn use these results to improve their products and also share them with their prospective customers etc. So this is not really as secret as one might think. And I guess this is where MeanBird is little confused. I am following up his posts; he is not accusing Maxim for lying or anything like that. He is only curious as how Maxim has drawn certain conclusions.

As you have said in some message to me, the Internet is really an amazing thing. A persistent person (geek) with the knowledge of right kind of search parameters can extract wealth of information. There is everything on the internet; you just need to know the right combination to unlock it.

 

[MastanKhan]

As you have said in some message to me, the Internet is really an amazing thing. A persistent person (geek) with the knowledge of right kind of search parameters can extract wealth of information. There is everything on the internet; you just need to know the right combination to unlock it. Qsaark


Hi Qsaark,

I was trying to simplyfy things----just trying to give ideas to younger people to take an initiative---do some research on your own---think what the other person is saying---think why the other person is saying what he is saying---you look at the integrity of that person as well---you also ask this question---and it is a very important question---why is this person's analysis different than the main stream----why is it that I have not heard of it before---now we are coming to the most difficult part----.

I don't have any simple answer for that---as for my source---a lot of it comes from reading all kind of literature---books of all kinds and manner and possibly remembering the information and absorbing it better than most other people---.

See---for your 5 years old, you will do your very best to put your heart out on the platter to explain them what it is and how it is---because your 5 years old the is the very love of your life---that 5 year old is your future that you cherish now---but then as you are the father---and you want to explain them in every which way possible.

My problem is that---and it is not a small problem---I have to deal with my young pakistani little brothers all the time---and a lot of times there is head butting---it is acceptable to me when some of these boys and men are working on their own---living their free lives away from their parents---not dependant for bread and butter and roof and clothings---.

Now how do I explain to that person about replacing the clutch plate on the engine by removing the transmission of a japanese car in the university campus parking lot in the middle of winter break in december with feets of snow around---temperature below freezing in the day time---I dismantling the transmission down---installing a new clutch---putting the transmission back by myself with the help of a hydraulic jack---lying on the snow covered ground on my back on a matting piece of carpet---all for a paltry sum of u s $50---so that us 4 pakistanis who were left behind in the dorms during winter vacation didnot have any money to buy food---and some how the job came by---and I had to do what I had to, because we were broke and not prepared and there was no other resource available.

Truthfully---a lot of stuff is not available on the internet---you got to read a lot---and the most important thing is to read without prejudice and hatred---a lot of writers---ex spooks---ex millitarymen---legal eagles---and so many others---there is an ocean full of information in the books out there---you just have to know what to look for and how the grab it when you find it.


One of my favourite writers once said ," in order for any work of fiction to be good---there has to be some form of truth in it". Was it Robert Ludlum---John Le carre---Wilbur Smith---Ken Follet---Tom Clancy or someone else---I don't remember---It is just that " IF YOU WANT TO SEE A BEAST YOU DON'T SEE EVERYDAY, YOU HAVE TO GO PLACES QUITE OUT OF THE WAY, YOU HAVE TO GO PLACES NO OTHER CAN GET TO, YOU HAVE TO GET COLD AND YOU HAVE TO GET WET TOO ". ( THE GREAT DR SEUSS may God bless his soul).


Now as for Maxim---he can answer better the source of his info---and what he does for a living---I leave that to him.

Most of the information out there is just out of a print material---SALES BROCHURES---and you and I both know and understand how the sales brochures work.

Now about the F 16 issue---I went to school in ogden utah---neighbour to Hill AFB---the largest F 16 base in the world in the 80's---a lots of pakistani pilots went there for training---within the year---the newspapers and local air force magazines were full of praises for the pak pilots---the HILL had not seen any foreign pilots before who were capable of grasping the knowledge of the F 16---the machine, flight and air combat---the paks were the toast of the town---and there were pilots from every corner of the world---one pak pilot I don't remember if he was current ACM Latif or someone else---was the pride of the pak pack---he could take any american F 16 pilot mano a mano and take him out and down---. Now so much for the bragging about the paf pilots----.

Anyway---my understanding is that PAF is extremely secretive about its dissimiliar fighter aircraft combat training---it only lets out what you want to believe---it also knows about its limitations in air warfare are---so the techniques it has developed over the years are not the traditional type of air combat training, air warfare and survival. Their training has taken a different directions. The mental toughness of the pilots is really worthy of praise---flying their f7pg's--mirage 3/5's old F 16's and A 5's----it is just like the charge of the light brigade the modern version---

and just like Maxim stated


"In that case PAF will resort to :
1. Synergy
2. Coordination
3. Hit the CGs only
4. Raise the Cost of war
5. Raise the cost of victory for IAF "

In one of their excersizes with the USAF a few years ago, the paf lost to them I believe 3--10 or 4 to 10 something like that----but compare that to the usaf fighting the german airforce--the germans were 0---10 and similiar the case with other european air forces doing excersizes with usaf. In case of the paf---the aircraft were extremely inferior to what the usaf had. The usaf had not lost a single air battle to any european af before that.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

To Mastan Saheb:
However there are times when you really want to ask "how" you came to this conclusion?, "what" do you have to support your claim?, "when" this happened? kind of questions. Pakistan Air Force is not the only Air Force; this is not the only Air Force that operates F-16s, or other hardware for that matter. Other Air forces also carry out regular exercises and the results obtained from those are duly recorded for reference. These results regularly get published in defense related Journals, and such information are shared with the manufacturers. Which in turn use these results to improve their products and also share them with their prospective customers etc. So this is not really as secret as one might think.

1. Hi , What may be worth being a secret for you might be a piece of useless info for another person.

2. Its true that PAF isn't the only nation with F-16, but how many of them are counting on it as their the first and final Punch? and how many of them are leaving besides a bigger enemy?

3. And again i would say, results are media oriented ( the one who has a better media control will control the results). they first make the other party lose their credibility and then get hold of the media.

4. What actually goes behind the scene is different. for instance alot of time when two nations like Americans and then west are doing an exercise , they dont employ their Air superiority squadrons, they just bring out squadrons like SEAD specialist or Counter land specialized people. Because their objective is not mere shoot and smile , what they do is employ EW assets , monitor finger prints of EW, see the caliber, calculate the Sortie generation rate of the other side, observe their working , calculate their Mean time between failure, these things are kept for war time planning.

5. If lockheed Martin has to sell a an aircraft, no one can challenge what they dictate as a result of some exercise (just an example of big players)

6. Every Organization has its secrets, these are the things that can be called as the double edged dagger. It can cut you if you dont take care of it.

7. For anyone who thinks that everything is available on the net , here is a question " What all modifications have been done on our F-16s?" you will get to know the basic ones or common ones only, the rest is a secret and if you ever get to know it , you will come to know , what we really are and what hell can we play. (search the net ask people, lets see)

 

[Cyril]

One sided analysis much?

I am not taking sides here since i look at both countries without any prejudice in mind, but-hey the person who wrote that article managed to report all the IAF "wrongs and bads" comparing to the PAF's few priveleges (pilot training and secretive BVRAAM's ? uh..ok)

Any person without any nationalism infecting his mind would clearly see that in present time IAF has a HuuuuuGE advantage over the PAF.
Besides having more aircraft (witch is the ultimate rule of warfare
quantity>quality : see Sherman and T-34 Vs Tiger) they also have better quality aircraft.
The backbone of the IAF in not too distant future will be the 280 Su-30MKI's witch are more than a capable aircraft.
+50 Upgraded Mirage 2000-5 MK2
+62 Mig-29's upgraded to SMT standart
+125 Mig-21 Bisons (upgraded to a whole new level)
+120 new MRCA Aircraft(you all know who are the tenders)
+LCA total nuber not available yet(Problems, Problems Problems )
+ HALGFA 5th gen fighter in cooperation with russia.
+ All the ground attack aircraft witch will be upgraded until induction of
LCA (Mig-27, Jaguar etc)
All the Current Russian aircraft(Mig 21 Bison, Mig 29 and Su-30) can carry one of the best BVRAAMs available on the planet the R-77 witch has better manuverability and range than the american AIM-12O
and can pull turns at 12G's more than any manned fighter.
The "flying coffin" is an anachronism looking back at 2000's with the dissolution of The USSR there were no parts for the Mig-21's
But now since IAF will have a lot of retired mig-21 it will have plenty of parts for the Mig -21 Bison.
India is a super-power and its a fact and she does everything to reinforce that role.
Pakistan on the other hand had suffered from the decades of sanctions while trying to be able to defend itself.
Paf has little or no BVR capability with only a half-a-squadron of JF-17
being able to carry modern chinese BVRAAMS witch make little or no difference comparing to IAF.
Although many PAF Mirage 3's were upgraded with new avionics(under rose program) and supposedly to be BVR-able i havent found any proof of that.( send me plz if u know anything, armament etc.)
PAF is trying to reorganize, modernise and upgrade.
In not to distant future paf aims for
250-300 JF-17 Lightweight Fighters
60(or 70?) F-16 C/D (upgraded by TAI and bought from US(blk52+)
36 FC-20(J-10) Multirole fighters
Well..
It was a good decision for joint manufacture of the Jf-17 but i seriously doubt it will be able to par with the Su-30'Mkis but since BVR makes most of the results its quite possible.
The F-16 and FC-20's will be like counter-forces for the Mirage 2000 and Mig-29 but still... dont forget about the MRCA, LCA and Mig-21 Bisons...
+It would be a good choice for the PAF to upgrade in the MIg-21 Bison likewise fashion a hundred or so fighters from the older stock witch will be able to at least somehow lessen the quantity cap between the air forces and stay in active duty, it should be either the F-7 ot the Mirage 3/5 (depending on the air frame endurance i would say the F-7 since many were bought in 2002 and could be upgraded by china and by chance be able to be armed with the aim-7 sparrows(BVR's) witch are otherwise are lying around in storage)

Well thats all, any polite replies are welcom

 

[pakpower]

One sided analysis much?

I am not taking sides here since i look at both countries without any prejudice in mind, but-hey the person who wrote that article managed to report all the IAF "wrongs and bads" comparing to the PAF's few priveleges (pilot training and secretive BVRAAM's ? uh..ok)

Any person without any nationalism infecting his mind would clearly see that in present time IAF has a HuuuuuGE advantage over the PAF.
Besides having more aircraft (witch is the ultimate rule of warfare
quantity>quality : see Sherman and T-34 Vs Tiger) they also have better quality aircraft.
The backbone of the IAF in not too distant future will be the 280 Su-30MKI's witch are more than a capable aircraft.
+50 Upgraded Mirage 2000-5 MK2
+62 Mig-29's upgraded to SMT standart
+125 Mig-21 Bisons (upgraded to a whole new level)
+120 new MRCA Aircraft(you all know who are the tenders)
+LCA total nuber not available yet(Problems, Problems Problems )
+ HALGFA 5th gen fighter in cooperation with russia.
+ All the ground attack aircraft witch will be upgraded until induction of
LCA (Mig-27, Jaguar etc)
All the Current Russian aircraft(Mig 21 Bison, Mig 29 and Su-30) can carry one of the best BVRAAMs available on the planet the R-77 witch has better manuverability and range than the american AIM-12O
and can pull turns at 12G's more than any manned fighter.
The "flying coffin" is an anachronism looking back at 2000's with the dissolution of The USSR there were no parts for the Mig-21's
But now since IAF will have a lot of retired mig-21 it will have plenty of parts for the Mig -21 Bison.
India is a super-power and its a fact and she does everything to reinforce that role.
Pakistan on the other hand had suffered from the decades of sanctions while trying to be able to defend itself.
Paf has little or no BVR capability with only a half-a-squadron of JF-17
being able to carry modern chinese BVRAAMS witch make little or no difference comparing to IAF.
Although many PAF Mirage 3's were upgraded with new avionics(under rose program) and supposedly to be BVR-able i havent found any proof of that.( send me plz if u know anything, armament etc.)
PAF is trying to reorganize, modernise and upgrade.
In not to distant future paf aims for
250-300 JF-17 Lightweight Fighters
60(or 70?) F-16 C/D (upgraded by TAI and bought from US(blk52+)
36 FC-20(J-10) Multirole fighters
Well..
It was a good decision for joint manufacture of the Jf-17 but i seriously doubt it will be able to par with the Su-30'Mkis but since BVR makes most of the results its quite possible.
The F-16 and FC-20's will be like counter-forces for the Mirage 2000 and Mig-29 but still... dont forget about the MRCA, LCA and Mig-21 Bisons...
+It would be a good choice for the PAF to upgrade in the MIg-21 Bison likewise fashion a hundred or so fighters from the older stock witch will be able to at least somehow lessen the quantity cap between the air forces and stay in active duty, it should be either the F-7 ot the Mirage 3/5 (depending on the air frame endurance i would say the F-7 since many were bought in 2002 and could be upgraded by china and by chance be able to be armed with the aim-7 sparrows(BVR's) witch are otherwise are lying around in storage)

Well thats all, any polite replies are welcom

PAF InshaAllah will overcome all these hurdels in near future you just wait and watch baby.

 

[pakpower]

yes pak will be the numero uno superpower in the world.....
we ARE waiting and just waiting to be told again to WAIT AND WATCH.

There is no only one super power the one and only Allah (SWT) Subhana Taalaah.