PAF victories against Israeli Air Force, kept secret for 25 years - Air Commodore (r) Khalid Chishti

[Beny Karachun]

Any country could sustain that ratio providing the leading edge technology of United States of America was at your service. It is important to take note that the chance of defeating Israel is in equal measuree to defeating Idaho, Ilinois or Alaska. Israel is when it comes to military technology, military assets, military reserves the 51st state of USA.

Want to have a war with Israel? Go fight USA first. If you can defeat America then you can by all means go after Israel.

And besides, there was no technologial edge up until we received the first F-15 and F-16.
Soviet MiGs were equal to or superior to Israeli Mirage, Vatour, Hunter, Mystere, A4 Skyhawk, and in air to air combat were equal to the F-4 Phantom. Not to talk about the obvious ground superiority of T-62s, AK-47s, night vision etc

 

[Yasser76]

Most of those air to air kills happened up until the end of 1973 war, in that era we had no advantage over the Arabs except in our tactics and strategy, they had us numerically and technologically. So you're wrong there.

I would argue the F-4 Phantom and the US delivering huge amounts of equipment was a certain advantage from a technical point of view.

And besides, there was no technologial edge up until we received the first F-15 and F-16.
Soviet MiGs were equal to or superior to Israeli Mirage, Vatour, Hunter, Mystere, A4 Skyhawk, and in air to air combat were equal to the F-4 Phantom. Not to talk about the obvious ground superiority of T-62s, AK-47s, night vision etc

in PAF hands Mirages and Sabres held their own against MIGs, so maybe Israeli pilots were the flaw here?

Israel is an enemy state to Pakistan. They have always tried to undermine our security.

Not an enemy state of Pakistan and many decent people and very bright people, but a vile Government that is certain

 

[Beny Karachun]

I would argue the F-4 Phantom and the US delivering huge amounts of equipment was a certain advantage from a technical point of view.

From the 14th of October to the 14th of November 1973, Israel received 22,325 tones of equipment by air, 33,210 tones of equipment by sea.
In contrast, during the same time, the Arabs received 15,000 tones by air, and 63,000 tones by sea.

So the Arabs received more supplies than Israel actually did, and that's in addition to the already, much bigger Arab combined army.

in PAF hands Mirages and Sabres held their own against MIGs, so maybe Israeli pilots were the flaw here?

Don't be dense bro, I said Israeli jets were equal to or inferior to the Arab jets, air to air combat ratio is still 27.5:1 in favor of Israel, so the Israeli pilots definitely aren't the flaw here, quite the opposite.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

The Israelis were also more motivated in their earlier wars with the Arab nations. If you're fighting for your very existence, it does make a difference. Morale in most Arab armies was and still is less.

Interestingly, we saw the inverse in some of Hezbollah's conflicts with Israel, especially the one 20 years back.

 

[Yasser76]

From the 14th of October to the 14th of November 1973, Israel received 22,325 tones of equipment by air, 33,210 tones of equipment by sea.
In contrast, during the same time, the Arabs received 15,000 tones by air, and 63,000 tones by sea.

So the Arabs received more supplies than Israel actually did, and that's in addition to the already, much bigger Arab combined army.


Don't be dense bro, I said Israeli jets were equal to or inferior to the Arab jets, air to air combat ratio is still 27.5:1 in favor of Israel, so the Israeli pilots definitely aren't the flaw here, quite the opposite.

You can save the insults, and I am not your "bro".

So I am having trouble here, PAF and IDAF pilots did well in Mirages against MIGs, but somehow the Mirage was still inferior?

The F-4 was a huge advantge over anything the Arabs had. Just curious about this myth of Arab technological superiority.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Interestingly, we saw the inverse in some of Hezbollah's conflicts with Israel, especially the one 20 years back.

Which war are you talking about exactly?

The reason of Israel's perceived "loss" (That is just in contrast to its former victories, tactically the Israeli soldier was still qualitatively and numerically superior) isn't really because we weren't fighting for our existence, it's because we didn't put the Lebanese in a position they fought for theirs. In such a war, where the enemy hides in villages and cities, fearing for collateral damage is your downfall.

Only way I see Israel truly win, in the same way it won 1967, is a massive, Russian-style bombardment of Lebanon and Lebanese critical infrastructures.

 

[Vortex]

Good to remember men in the cockpits.

But it was past. And past is finished now.

 

[Yasser76]

Which war are you talking about exactly?

The reason of Israel's perceived "loss" (That is just in contrast to its former victories, tactically the Israeli soldier was still qualitatively and numerically superior) isn't really because we weren't fighting for our existence, it's because we didn't put the Lebanese in a position they fought for theirs. In such a war, where the enemy hides in villages and cities, fearing for collateral damage is your downfall.

Only way I see Israel truly win, in the same way it won 1967, is a massive, Russian-style bombardment of Lebanon and Lebanese critical infrastructures.

"Fearing collateral damage"!!!??? Please, get your lying a*s the f**k out of here.

1,300 civilans dead, you also managed to strike a clearly marked UN post and kill four UN observers with a guided bomb.

 

[Beny Karachun]

So I am having trouble here, PAF and IDAF pilots did well in Mirages against MIGs, but somehow the Mirage was still inferior?

The F-4 was a huge advantge over anything the Arabs had. Just curious about this myth of Arab technological superiority.

I said inferior or equal to. In the case of the Mirage, it was equal to the MiG-21 in most cases.
Even if the Mirage won against the MiGs, it doesn't mean it's necessarily better than it. It's the pilot, not the jet. Especially during that era.


F-4 Didn't have a huge advantage. MiG-21 was lighter and accelerated faster, also had better maneuverability. F-4 had an advantage being a multirole fighter, having a massive bomb capacity. However in an air to air battle it didn't really have much of an advantage.
Arab technological edge was even more noticeable on ground, as I said, with their T-62s, AK-47s, night vision, SAMs, artillery etc.

"Fearing collateral damage"!!!??? Please, get your lying a*s the f**k out of here.

1,300 civilans dead, you also managed to strike a clearly marked UN post and kill four UN observers with a guided bomb.

First of all it's around 700 civilians, and 800 combatants, second of all it's nothing relatively to wars in which collateral damage isn't a concern, hell, look a few kilometers east to Lebanon and you'll find Syria with over half a million dead, millions of injured and millions of displaced citizens.

Or look at the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Chechniya, Georgia, Serbia, those are wars with no concern of collateral damage. And this is how you actually win wars.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Where did you learn Urdu?

He didnt.. he just read and replied without any knowledge...

3 Is a possible option, and even then it's a high number.
In all of its wars since 1948, Israel only lost 25-26 jets in dogfights and shot down 687 enemy jets in dogfights. That's 27.5:1 ratio.

11 Would account for 44% of all Israeli aerial losses, 3 would account for 12%.
12% is doubtable, let alone 44%.

Well he is quoting isreali air cheif who said we lost 11 jets to Pakistani pilots flying for Arab AFs...

What difference does it make? Israel is not an enemy or a threat. At best they are somewhat of a nuisance due to their supply of weapons to India but then again so are France/Russia...

If the ISI/Pak Military ever thought Israel was a threat then we would be stationing troops/equipment in Syria/Jordan etc... the fact that we arent speaks for itself.

They consider us a threat... their First PM considered us a threat..They tried to sabotage our nukes... and you say its not a threat ?

 

[Beny Karachun]

Well he is quoting isreali air cheif who said we lost 11 jets to Pakistani pilots flying for Arab AFs...

Which air chief has ever said that?
Besides, how would he know? Pakistani pilots were flying Arab MiG-21s with Arab markings, Israeli pilots couldn't tell if they're Pakistani pilots, or just random Arab pilots.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

Which air chief has ever said that?
Besides, how would he know? Pakistani pilots were flying Arab MiG-21s with Arab markings, Israeli pilots couldn't tell if they're Pakistani pilots, or just random Arab pilots.

He Quoted Pushpinder Singh telling him that "Israeli Air Cheif said that PAF pilots have shot down 11 Israeli jets"

Which air chief has ever said that?
Besides, how would he know? Pakistani pilots were flying Arab MiG-21s with Arab markings, Israeli pilots couldn't tell if they're Pakistani pilots, or just random Arab pilots.

Here is a simple proof one of em kills

https://i.redd.it/akd7xonqjru31.jpg

 

[Beny Karachun]

He Quoted Pushpinder Singh telling him that "Israeli Air Cheif said that PAF pilots have shot down 11 Israeli jets"

So basically he didn't quote any Israeli air chief, but he quoted someone telling him that quote?
I have never heard of an Israeli air chief ever saying such a thing

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Nice way to cope

Benny, I don't have issues with Israel. Without charting the settlement of European Jewry to corner of West Asia all the way to the present I can say that there was element of time travel. European Jews living with and access to 20th century world scoped into Palestine, a people who at the time were in socio-political terms still living sometime in the 18th century.

The settlers were backed by powerful and wealthy groups in capitals of the west, from Washington to London to Paris etc. First world met Third world and no surprises who won. Many of fighting elements of the nascent Israel were ex-WW2 veterans. In addition the Germans had wiped 6 million of their people and that animus was expanded on the poor Palestinans.

Israel is in fact a sliver of West in West Asia and in this era the Western world is dominant. That is the bottom line.

Israel is an enemy state to Pakistan. They have always tried to undermine our security.

What did I say earlier? Your one of them. Rabidity is a disease that has spread far and wide. I bet your the type croaking on about Palestinins whilst ignoring what is going on in Occupied Kashmir. Israel is NOT the enemy. India is. That is if your a Pakistani.

there are too many crazed dogs to face such realities.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Those victories are mostly inflated and unbased.

Dead man tell no lies.