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PAF To Participate in PAS With Block-3

People are criticizing JF-17 project that had we gone for J10's we would have inducted AESA capable jets two years "ago". as far as my knowledge of the language goes, "Ago" happens in the past not 10 years in future


Hey,

Name me directly---I have made that statement---.

So I copied and pasted that post---. Tell me what is wrong now---.

10 years ago we would have gone for the first batch---that would be the J10 B----.

Then the next addition would have been the J10C with AESA that were available around 2 years ago---.

Guy---what is wrong with my comments---is there a problem with the diction?



Hi,

This is a surprise---. So many seasoned members are looking at the clear picture of the JF17.

I stated it over a decade ago---the moment Paf got the chance of getting the J10---the JF17 project should have been stopped and Paf moved onto to the J10.

At least the failures and mistakes would not be put on the Paf / pakistan----the chinese will take care and spend their money to fix the problems---which they did when they were pointed out---.

A nation like Israel---which had been sanctioned many a times---stopped the production of Lavi once it was assured of the F16's---.

To go for a lower tiered aircraft than the F16 was tactically a sabotage over the integrity of defense of pakistan by the Paf---.

The BLK3 JF17 would not be deployable for another 3-4 years and fully integrated in around 6-8 years from now---possibly---.

For the J10---we would have had a fully integrated aesa equipped J10 possible 1-2 years ago---.

Paf had no brains to comprehend that the western nations would never let it steal their fighter aircraft market---.

Building an indutrial aircraft complex at Kamra means that the enemy can destroy that facility thru air strikes---.

Building them in china meant that our supply line would not be effected-.
 
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JF17 still holds the potential to become MiG21 of 21st century... Gripen is too expensive and surprisingly a Tejas costs you about the same... EXPENSIVE!!! and both have US engines and other goodies from US block...
The 21st century has tilted towards low RCS and then towards stealth, so a stealth designed JF-17 holds a good chance to sail through the whole century with mid life upgrades.

The goal should be to sell 1 JF for each one PAF needs...
Goal should also have been to sell JF-17's to buy a new type of different aircraft - EFT, J-11/15 etc. The regular budget should allow more JF-17s and F-16s, side by side. PAF has risen from the dead 90's with addition of new technology (BVR combat, SOWs, HMD, Refueling, AWACS) and more aircrafts (JF-17 and F-16s).

80's witnessed the retirement of F-86s which had dragged on about 15-20 years, 2000's saw retirement of F-6 and A-5 overdue by 15+ years and 2010's saw initial retirement phases of F-7Ps which were just 20 years old or so when inducted. Its the Mirage-III/V which should be named Miracle instead of Mirage for surviving so long and continuing to do so effectively.

This project Azm of a stealth aircraft is interesting. I think Mirages have taught PAF a lesson that an in-house aircraft has the possibility to deliver weapons carried by Mirages.
 
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Hey,

Name me directly---I have made that statement---have courage to talk straight---.

So I copied and pasted that post---. Tell me what is wrong now---.

10 years ago we would have gone for the first batch---that would be the J10 B----.

Then the next addition would have been the J10C with AESA that were available around 2 years ago---.

Guy---what is wrong with my comments---is there a problem with the diction?

Even if there was an error---is that how spiteful in character that you are---that you jumped at it---?


Hi,

This is a surprise---. So many seasoned members are looking at the clear picture of the JF17.

I stated it over a decade ago---the moment Paf got the chance of getting the J10---the JF17 project should have been stopped and Paf moved onto to the J10.

At least the failures and mistakes would not be put on the Paf / pakistan----the chinese will take care and spend their money to fix the problems---which they did when they were pointed out---.

A nation like Israel---which had been sanctioned many a times---stopped the production of Lavi once it was assured of the F16's---.

To go for a lower tiered aircraft than the F16 was tactically a sabotage over the integrity of defense of pakistan by the Paf---.

The BLK3 JF17 would not be deployable for another 3-4 years and fully integrated in around 6-8 years from now---possibly---.

For the J10---we would have had a fully integrated aesa equipped J10 possible 1-2 years ago---.

Paf had no brains to comprehend that the western nations would never let it steal their fighter aircraft market---.

Building an indutrial aircraft complex at Kamra means that the enemy can destroy that facility thru air strikes---.

Building them in china meant that our supply line would not be effected-.
And what about Engine of J-10, Russian are not willing to reexport its AL-31F on J-10
 
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So, what is your take, what steps will Iran take from Post 2020, when they will be free from Sanctions most probably ? Will they show interest in Thunder? If yes, what will be our response ? Personally, I wouldn’t want to give anything to them, due to them supporting RAW continuously and playing with my motherland, supporting our enemy, and most importantly, nonethics with regards to sale agreement. They will reverse engineer to produce rip-offs like saegah.
Iran regards its own aviation industry ahead of Pakistan. They have reverse engineered older US aircrafts and introduced some designs. I strongly think that Iran will not go for JF-17.

Focus has to be sell one JF for every JF in service of PAF.... start workign on Block 4 now already ...

Pakistan is NOT going to remain a mess that it is now... we need to move forward and take our rightful place in AfroPak Region.

JF-17 is a light fighter evolving into a medium multi role fighter. Since the light and medium categories have been covered by F-16 and JF-17, the focus should be on heavy and stealth, separated or combined ?

I remember meeting the OC of a JF-17 squadron at the beginning of this year. He was a very established Viper guy, had flown every type version of the jet in the PAF including a 2 year exchange tour abroad on Vipers. His comments were, the Block 52+ is the best platform for the war on terror. But the JF-17 is their own platform and they can do anything they want with it. F-16s had to be regulated in many ways (not the way how the public says especially with the kill switch bugs...)
Solidifies the point of in-house production aircraft for current and future requirements of PAF.
 
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Iran regards its own aviation industry ahead of Pakistan. They have reverse engineered older US aircrafts and introduced some designs. I strongly think that Iran will not go for JF-17.
But sir they have only reverse engineered F-5, There is no jet in Iranian air force that compare to JF-17 except F-14
But you're right sir they better options to import 4.5th gen jets like J-10/Su-35/Mig-35 in future when their sanctions are lifted
JF-17 is a light fighter evolving into a medium multi role fighter. Since the light and medium categories have been covered by F-16 and JF-17, the focus should be on heavy and stealth, separated or combined ?
Does we have plan to put JF-17 in medium weight category, i don't thinks so sir, we are following Grippen/Sweden strategy to improve JF-17 just Grippen C to Grippen NG
 
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My guess is that the PAF understood this in hindsight, and with Project Azm, decided to go balls to the wall by going for a high-cost, high-complexity FGFA program instead of a side-project export-only fighter like FC-31 (which is how the JF-17 started out).
Wouldnt be surprised if similarities between F-31 and Azm designed aircraft pop up.
 
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This is the internet, it does not matter who wrote what and not in a condescending way. What matters is the point of view presented, and its that POV that should be answered.

What's wrong with that approach, is that we would have remained fully dependant on China, not saying we are not dependant now, but at least we are on the way to self-dependence, hopefully in the next 20 years, we would be able to make our own weapons 100% on our own.

Everyone has to start somewhere, PAF started with JF17, and we are not at any disadvantage against IAF by going JF17 route. In fact it has strengthened PAF more than any acquisition of limited number of jets would have done.


Hey,

Name me directly---I have made that statement---.

So I copied and pasted that post---. Tell me what is wrong now---.

10 years ago we would have gone for the first batch---that would be the J10 B----.

Then the next addition would have been the J10C with AESA that were available around 2 years ago---.

Guy---what is wrong with my comments---is there a problem with the diction?



Hi,

This is a surprise---. So many seasoned members are looking at the clear picture of the JF17.

I stated it over a decade ago---the moment Paf got the chance of getting the J10---the JF17 project should have been stopped and Paf moved onto to the J10.

At least the failures and mistakes would not be put on the Paf / pakistan----the chinese will take care and spend their money to fix the problems---which they did when they were pointed out---.

A nation like Israel---which had been sanctioned many a times---stopped the production of Lavi once it was assured of the F16's---.

To go for a lower tiered aircraft than the F16 was tactically a sabotage over the integrity of defense of pakistan by the Paf---.

The BLK3 JF17 would not be deployable for another 3-4 years and fully integrated in around 6-8 years from now---possibly---.

For the J10---we would have had a fully integrated aesa equipped J10 possible 1-2 years ago---.

Paf had no brains to comprehend that the western nations would never let it steal their fighter aircraft market---.

Building an indutrial aircraft complex at Kamra means that the enemy can destroy that facility thru air strikes---.

Building them in china meant that our supply line would not be effected-.
 
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You can feel about that if you want, its not the aircraft's fault, which is fine as it is. The fault is in the poor marketing of the aircraft and the general Pakistani mentality of doing the bare minimum. And to set the record straight, the JF-17 was used in the Operation Swift Retort, along with Mirages and F-16s in both AG roles as well as providing top cover. The only person who initially hinted that the kills were from JF-17 was a retired PAF officer, not the best source of information. Even then, plenty of people were skeptical of the claim including another retired PAF officer and people on this forum even. Anyways, that is not the aircrafts fault. F-16s happened to get both kills, and regardless, PAF came on top.

The part where the marketing fails is in the promotion of the aircraft, that includes taking the aircraft to more than just 1 show per year, materials that PAF/PAC puts out (second rate brochures with terrible layouts and even fake pictures of the aircraft, almost no pictures or videos of smart munitions being carried or released so show off its capabilities. Heck you can even find Dassault's very well done documentaries on Rafale, Tiger and even their aircraft carrier and nuclear subs on Amazon Prime Video. Thats marketing 101. Here however we have people trying to photoshop out serial numbers as if thats some state secret.

Take the most recent Dubai Airshow, what did we see of the JF-17 except an outdated and crappy pamphlet to show case our most expensive and sophisticated weapon system? A misspelled banner? Which btw is not the first time that has happened. Says a lot if you cant even get the spelling right, how will you assure customers about your quality control. The other thing that has ALWAYS irked me is that everyone ever interviewed about the JF-17 in the last 10 years, without fail, always mentions how "cheap" the aircraft is. Get that word out of your vocabulary. A $30MM jet is not cheap by any standard and that is also not a quality to describe anything you are selling, unless its to a kabariya.

Finally, though people have been talking about the failure to produce a 2-seat version early on for some time, and I agree it was a big oversight, its not insurmountable. If Lockheed can come to an event with a flight simulator to show off the capabilities of its 40 year old fighter that almost everyone in the world already knows about, why don't we have the ability to take one with us every time we go to a huge exhibit like Dubai or Paris Airshow or even one in China. I can bet people would be lining up to see the simulator and trying to get a few minutes of virtual flight time in it. That would be completely acceptable in lieu of having a twin-seater jet there and a lot less expensive as well.

I hope PAC/PAF takes note of the glaring errors they have been making so far. It takes the same amount of money to design and print a shitty looking pamphlet as it does a nice looking one. Every picture of the JF-17 should be of a fully loaded aircraft with different weapons it can carry for the different roles, including A-A, A-G (with REK, LGBs, LDP), ASMs, and ARMs. Also every picture should display the refueling probe. These are pretty simple and common sense things. Pick up any aviation magazine and you will see how the competition displays its products. Even LIFT trainers showcase more capabilities in a single picture than we do with our jet.

Also, if you are going to display models, show a cutaway with a mockup AESA radar instead. We have seen plenty of simple models by now over the last 10 years and as has everyone else. Need to up the game here guys.
you have made an exceptionally great commentary on the subject of JF17 and its marketing

you nailed it by questioning the use of word "cheap" with our first ever fighter we are marketing

cheap suggests compromise on quality inferior and underpowered
even chinese and Russians dont use this word for their jets

when country's defence is at stake then a weapon must ve marketed as capable and efficient NOT cheap

JF 17 marketing team must not be retired or serving PAF personnel but civilian professionals with years of experience and proven record in successful sales and marketing

it bleeds my ears when PAF air cheif to flught lieutenants describe cheap as a selling point for this jet.

I will save my misgivings about the impractical wishlist items our fanboys demand of block 3. forgetting the airframe fuselage and engine capacity of this jet has limits.


the jet is more than fine. it's a success story for PAF a leap of faith from A5s and Chinese mig 21 variants of f7s and thats all.
 
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PAS will not happens next year (2020) as most members assume but it will happens on 2021, and most of members here try to compare F-16 with JF-17 which is wrong, JF-17 is not builds for Replacement for F-16 but complement to our F-16 and both sits in different class (JF-17 is lightweight jet that is replacing F-7/ A-5 and Some mirages) and F-16 is in medium weight category
It is not the fault of the people but the self styled Father of the JFT who has gone on repeating ad nauseum how the JFT was styled on the 16 and is better than the 16 therefore the name J17.
I agree there are multiple reasons for JFT to have advantage over the 16 in the capabilities we can incorporate on to the platform. However the 16s are backed by a fully matured avaiation industry with at least 80/90 years experience behind them and that information and technical experience is a huge assett to have.
The JFT is a heaven sent to us for the advantages of setting up an aviation industry and incorporating tech from multiple providers. Given time and effort it will come in the ball park of the 16s with capabilities but the 16s are a class of their own and no one should take this away from them. Additionally the two are different weight class fighters and should not be compared.
A
 
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I was wondering, @MastanKhan , @araz , @GriffinsRule , @Stealth , all of you have shower concerns regarding bad marketing of Thunders.
NOW...

Let’s keep Pakistan And PAF aside. Come to CATIC/AVIC/CAC/SAC or plainly CHINA. How would you rate their marketing history since Chinese 2nd Gen planes (F-7) uptil now Especially J-10 and J-31 as well as L-15. ?

There is a belief, “Bacha apne baron se seekhta hai”, which i find quite accurate in many cases, implying here, AVIC will always be a Guru to PAC and vice versa, but China is old in defence manufacturing & Marketing compared to us. What say you guys?


I still have a wish to see the J-10 if we fail to acquire more F-16s.

This is the first time China officially market its J10. About J31, how could anyone market under-develop non-production hardware? China never market J31 @ any platform.
 
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This is the first time China officially market its J10. About J31, how could anyone market under-develop non-production hardware? China never market J31 @ any platform.
Yea, first time, they market the J-10, but FC-31 on many occasions. DAS 2017, 2-3 other times as well. However, the jet has attracted quite an attention, it would be interesting to see it’s future customers.
 
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Yea, first time, they market the J-10, but FC-31 on many occasions. DAS 2017, 2-3 other times as well. However, the jet has attracted quite an attention, it would be interesting to see it’s future customers.
FC-31's future looking Bleak, Its not back up by PLAAF or PLAAN, its just a private (company) project, neither PLAAF nor PLAAN interested on FC-31
 
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FC-31's future looking Bleak, Its not back up by PLAAF or PLAAN, its just a private (company) project, neither PLAAF nor PLAAN interested on FC-31
This is the only variable of the equation that is unknown to all of us now. I don’t see why FC-31 doesn’t have a good potential given the powerplant, armaments, avionics are all chinese and will definitely mature by 2026 when it will ready to be exported. What we must be waiting to see is the competition SAC and CAC are having for PLAN carrier requirements. CAC card isn’t revealed yet...
 
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I would rather we have a all singing and dancing platform that comes with slight delay than a half cooked product that needs correction mid way.

I read the posts and then thought, why not to rant a bit? after all everyone is having a good time at discussion whereby be adding information or positive criticism, is pretty much interesting.

If you may remember, we had some discussion in regard to Nigerian acquisition of Thunders while one of the missiles was into integration process for Thunders. What was revealed that every day, month or year spent upon the platform is in-fact being utilized for further development but it may looks like an idle situation to the commoners or people not so aware about progress behind closed doors.

Thunder provided us the feeling of road towards self-reliance and not just that but sets up a base for our aviation industry. Why don't people try to connect the dots that Project Azm ain't just born out of sudden idea but it has the route going back to 90s when we started with Thunder development. We have witnessed the PAF hierarchy saying that Thunder provided enough knowledge & Tech Validation that some of the developments are seen in J-10 & even a bit in J-20. All those techs combined with our participation for JF-17, is a big success. It may looks like to the few that Thunder is merely a short legged, not so attractive and behind 4th Gen fighters but on other hand, we are here talking about almost 80 years of Tycoons in Jet industry as compare to our first step into right direction. JF-17 Thunder is evolving and is more than good in its class of fighters as well as the product by a nation like Pakistan having all the sanctions & not so pleasant economy, with the help of China.

Secondly, JF-17 Thunder is still evolving and it wasn't a shortsightedness that such design parameters along with low-Med class jet was created but in-fact, our geography along with need and then finally/above all our strategy come planning or doctrine was involved to come up with such product. Has it been about stretching the air-frame, adding more size into Block-I or II for weight carrying and even the tech around; who in the right mind will deny the fact PAC/PAF could have waited more longer or even put some more $$ into project but question remains as whether the same worth it. The upcoming Block-III, as speculated or per information available in public domain, is going to deliver us more than expected security having its latest tech, weaponry & independence for our integration for the weapon of our choice.

Similarly, it is going all as planned and couple of months delay which actually results in more capable fighter having latest incorporated Tech is far more beneficial than half cooked/hastily decided product. Thunder is all fine in its domain and if I have to think as what will supplement the Med-High area in PAF then in-fact I will repeat myself that plans are in place. F-16s are staying as they are serving effectively, Mirages V etc are in arena with more life and due to their critical role and upcoming Thunder with Block-III that will suffice separated & designated role like we have different squadrons. Med-High class will be filled hence, we are looking at Azm which itself may be yet another surprise. We apparently aren't rushing for many factors including a well cooked product, lot of experience being gained, a self reliant structure & more emphasis on freedom of platform for matting anything that we want against the Enemy.

In the end, frustration in regard to awaited Block-III and our opinion that PAF should have either Viper or another Med-High platform is not unjust rather we feel the necessity for our security so I will give it like that for those who shows positive frustration though, saying that Top Brass is or was clueless or this & that is not fair at all. As the economy grows, we can see more of shiny Viper type jets produced by PAC.
 
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This is the internet, it does not matter who wrote what and not in a condescending way. What matters is the point of view presented, and its that POV that should be answered.

What's wrong with that approach, is that we would have remained fully dependant on China, not saying we are not dependant now, but at least we are on the way to self-dependence, hopefully in the next 20 years, we would be able to make our own weapons 100% on our own.

Everyone has to start somewhere, PAF started with JF17, and we are not at any disadvantage against IAF by going JF17 route. In fact it has strengthened PAF more than any acquisition of limited number of jets would have done.

So---what does this have to do with what I wrote---.

Just simply say---in a moment of excitement---I just lost my thoughts---.

We all do that---one time or another---instead of lying and compounding on the lie---.
 
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