PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[randomradio]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC


To New Members;
Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them

I have written a template in my first post in this thread. So that new/young members dont post one liners instead have an idea where to take the content of the thread.

You can pick any of the points in my template to discuss or you can discuss all the points briefly yet comprehensively like milspec just did.

Avoid offtopic one liners or you wont be taken seriously. Morover it takes the forum quality down.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-3#ixzz463l71Hje

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned




1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?


2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?


3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?


4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter


5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy some 4.5 gen fighter instead and develop tactics in the meanwhile


6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power


7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?


8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DON'T have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?


9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

13--Importance of joint ventures for subsystems avionics / ammunitions with countries other than China

100+ top of the line J-20s or 300+ J-31s by 2035, or bust. The IN alone will match the PAF in numbers by 2035, and all of the IN jets will be top of the line. So the number of high end jets is going to be crucial for PAF.

The JF-17/J-10 will never keep up and SAMs are useless without decent air cover.

As for point number 10, Rafale is a low/very low observable aircraft. That means it is a stealth aircraft. So its capability in air to air and strike missions will be leagues above the Su-30MKI when the Rafale goes into full cloak mode.

And point 12, cruise missiles are necessary, but they can't replace the air force. A Rafale can carry 6 bombs in 1 sortie. A single squadron of 18 jets can carry 108 bombs in a single sortie. And each squadron can fly about 3 sorties a day comfortably, not even surge sorties which can go up to 6 or 7 depending on the flight distance. So a squadron can drop 324 bombs a day. IAF plans for at least 9 squadrons, that's about 3000 bombs a day. No cruise missile can match that. And most cruise missiles will be shot down anyway while aircraft are more survivable.

Ships and subs will have an even harder time facing the IN with 200-300 jets and 200 ships/subs. Basically, the entire Arabian Sea will be covered by 3 squadrons of Mig-29s and 3 squadrons of Rafales by 2022 on 2 carriers and coastal bases. That's not counting the 9 squadrons IAF has in that sector. So we are talking about 300 jets, most of them high end. Pakistan will have to give up on maintaining SLOC during war.

As for point 13, Turkey and China may offer a way out. But dealing with Turkey requires dealing with western nations. Apart from the political ramifications in dealing with western nations, western technology is far more expensive and restrictive in usage, whereas China won't provide the best technologies, they are like the Soviet Union in that sense, maybe worse.

 

[wiseone2]

Ok, thank you for your detailed explanation. If Pakistan and France were talking, I am SURE they knew the deal was on cash, this wasn't the first time Pakistan is buying stuff from France. They actually operate the second largest Mirage fleet after the French in the entire globe. So for you to tell us the deal was cash.......makes no sense as ALL deals with France are cash. PAF loves F-16 as even today, a bock 52 and 60 are able to take out your SU-30's and Rafale's!!!! Its that advanced. Ask your AF about their experience with Singapore, they hate the F-16 as it kicks SU-30's *** about 70% of the time!!!!

most of PAF Mirages are not from France. Rafale is two generations ahead of PAF Mirages. the costs have shot through the roof

 

[zebra7]

How about we turn our Mirages and F-7s, into drones?. It may sound silly, but these planes after re-furbishment could prove to be excellent force multipliers, plus make deep strikes far less risky.
Alot of R&D is needed, but if we pull this off, it will do wonders.

Who will do that ? Infact I too thought of that for the MIG-21 modified as Combat Drone, but I think the problem is the cost, and the technical issues related to the Real time, Consistent and reliable link to control it remotely at long range.

The member you are quoting does not even know the difference between simple and compound interest. don't waste your time.

It don't matter whether he have knowledge or not, but the way he is using abusive language is a bad indication.

PAF should go with these options under mid term strategy
1. To American with F16s Block 50, 52s or F18s with manufacturing plant in Pakistan to fill the gap of all Mirage Fighters
2. Go for Swedish Saab Grippen under transfer of technology with at least 100-150 jets it will also help for JF-17 program in some technological aspects to understand and for designing of next generation Jf-17s.
3. Go for Russians for Su 35s under transfer of technology and JF-17s Engine Manufacturing plant
4. Euro Fighters with same quantity to deal Indian Rafael
OR
5. With Chinese fighters like 100 J11D, 100 JH7B, under transfer of technology with AESA Radar to replace all mirage fighters. and in future this combination will be good for PAF ( J11D, JH-7B, F16s, JF17s, & J31)

For long Term Strategy
keep continue JF-17s Program and J31 with Chinese friends

LOLz -- With F-18, F-16 block 52, EF-2000 with the same number of Rafale, and Su-35, and all the Chinese JH-7B, J-11 D, and J-31 -- then there won't be any need of JF-17 and number of combat planes in PAF may shoot to 1000.

 

[Falcon26]

I think Pakistan should go for a squadron of two of Euro Fighter Typhoons. They are costly but they also can fill the maritime role and take the pressure off the F-16s and JF-17s. Pakistan's main ally Saudi Arabia operates big number of these jets so in times of war, there will be support available. Additionally, Pakistan has always had excellent defense relationship with Italy with PAF at one time rumored to be interested in the Eurofighter during Musharaff era. I believe recently the PAF ACM was seen in the cockpit of a Eurofighter.

 

[Paksanity]

I think Pakistan should go for a squadron of two of Euro Fighter Typhoons. They are costly but they also can fill the maritime role and take the pressure off the F-16s and JF-17s. Pakistan's main ally Saudi Arabia operates big number of these jets so in times of war, there will be support available. Additionally, Pakistan has always had excellent defense relationship with Italy with PAF at one time rumored to be interested in the Eurofighter during Musharaff era. I believe recently the PAF ACM was seen in the cockpit of a Eurofighter.

I thought Eurofighter ducks in maritime role. Anyway, PAF clarified this a while back. Words to this effect "we will go the European way if we are pushed against the wall". Apparently they are not pushed. Yet. I personally think PAF will make its move after India signs her procurement.

 

[Falcon26]

I thought Eurofighter ducks in maritime role. Anyway, PAF clarified this a while back. Words to this effect "we will go the European way if we are pushed against the wall". Apparently they are not pushed. Yet. I personally think PAF will make its move after India signs her procurement.

The PN recently signed a multi billion $$ deal to procure submarines from China. Let's hope the PAF has some tricks under its sleeves. A JF-17, F-16, Eurofighter fleet augmented by FC-31 will restore qualitative gap created by the Rafale.

 

[Moon]

Who will do that ? Infact I too thought of that for the MIG-21 modified as Combat Drone, but I think the problem is the cost, and the technical issues related to the Real time, Consistent and reliable link to control it remotely at long range.



It don't matter whether he have knowledge or not, but the way he is using abusive language is a bad indication.


LOLz -- With F-18, F-16 block 52, EF-2000 with the same number of Rafale, and Su-35, and all the Chinese JH-7B, J-11 D, and J-31 -- then there won't be any need of JF-17 and number of combat planes in PAF may shoot to 1000.

Those are the problems, so far only the US has a reliable long range link, and the EW interference would be a problem too, so these birds could be used in "swarms" to engage hostile planes, and then piloted jets could deliver the final blow, so these jets with the available technology could be used within PAF airspace.
To get into hostile airspace and maintaining a link in heavy electronic interference is near impossible. Or unless some sort of AI mission computer is developed which engages enemies on it's own, without any sort of piloting by a drone operator. That's in the near future.

 

[zebra7]

Those are the problems, so far only the US has a reliable long range link, and the EW interference would be a problem too, so these birds could be used in "swarms" to engage hostile planes, and then piloted jets could deliver the final blow, so these jets with the available technology could be used within PAF airspace.
To get into hostile airspace and maintaining a link in heavy electronic interference is near impossible. Or unless some sort of AI mission computer is developed which engages enemies on it's own, without any sort of piloting by a drone operator. That's in the near future.

You didn't got the point. Don't compare tactical link of UAVs with the one required here. Because of these problem.

1. The Speed and the size of the MIG UAV would be very high compare to traditional UAV, so if any mishap, or the link is broken the accident cause could be dangerous for the General public.

2. Landing and takeoff of MIGs are very dangerous and required very high pilot skill, which would be even more difficult for the pilot controlling remotely.

3. Pakistan don't pocess good communication infrastucture, and a dedicated tactical military satellite, and would solely be depend on the ground contol and communication center.

4. Those would be still vulnerable to the Link/communication Jamming, Spoofing, Hacking by the enemy.

 

[Moon]

You didn't got the point. Don't compare tactical link of UAVs with the one required here. Because of these problem.

1. The Speed and the size of the MIG UAV would be very high compare to traditional UAV, so if any mishap, or the link is broken the accident cause could be dangerous for the General public.

2. Landing and takeoff of MIGs are very dangerous and required very high pilot skill, which would be even more difficult for the pilot controlling remotely.

3. Pakistan don't pocess good communication infrastucture, and a dedicated tactical military satellite, and would solely be depend on the ground contol and communication center.

4. Those would be still vulnerable to the Link/communication Jamming, Spoofing, Hacking by the enemy.

Read my second paragraph :To get into hostile airspace and maintaining a link in heavy electronic interference is near impossible.
Secondly, we have more than MiGs.
Thirdly we don't hear about drones raining out of the sky.
Lastly, agreed Pakistan has next to none military satellite connections, but as I said; that's for the future.
If PA decides to do a project like this, they will have a proper infrastructure set-up.
Btw, size of the UAV would hardly matter. Speed wouldn't be much of a problem soon.
Half way there.

 

[zebra7]

Secondly, we have more than MiGs.

Don't understand the meaning of this ??

o get into hostile airspace and maintaining a link in heavy electronic interference is near impossible.

Possible, if the link is high speed encripted secure and linked via Satellite communication.

Thirdly we don't hear about drones raining out of the sky.

Because condition haven't arises like that but theoratically it is possible.

 

[Moon]

Don't understand the meaning of this ??



Possible, if the link is high speed encripted secure and linked via Satellite communication.



Because condition haven't arises like that but theoratically it is possible.

We also have Mirages..... Old pilots of the birds could fly it, without having to step in one, we have their skills and their experience.
That still would be hard, there are ways to block that link, no matter how encrypted, satellites can be brought down too, unfortunately; now you're contacting what you said earlier "4. Those would be still vulnerable to the Link/communication Jamming, Spoofing, Hacking by the enemy."
I can't seem to understand your stance.
The General Atomics Avenger and the Taranis are examples of large and fast drones
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ersonic-stealth-drone-takes-off/#2a8ce86c335a.
The thing is, if we keep counting on the risk of these things, and not bother developing then we aren't getting anywhere.

 

[Wolf]

Mig-29...not even close. When your M2K's are upgraded to M2K5's, then they will be.

isn't there any possibility of upgrading our mirage fleet to mirange 2k5 standard. I would be interested in cost per aircraft of such upgradation. i mean if it is not such a costly proposition then MLU Mirages upto 2k5 standard can still carry on for a decade. Because, buying an altogether new platform and in large numbers may be too much to implement considering availability of finances. Thanks.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

isn't there any possibility of upgrading our mirage fleet to mirange 2k5 standard. I would be interested in cost per aircraft of such upgradation. i mean if it is not such a costly proposition then MLU Mirages upto 2k5 standard can still carry on for a decade. Because, buying an altogether new platform and in large numbers may be too much to implement considering availability of finances. Thanks.

Hello All
Mr Wolf, Instead of upgrading our Mirages which we still have to replace until 2025 max Its better If we go for J10C(p) as even OP said it in its point Number 8
This J10c not only more advance in all things (much much btter then Mirages) this bird will stay long in (till 2035 to 2040 minimum )service, If PAF start working on it in this year I am 100% confident that it will be in mass production in 2020.
Thank you for reading.

 

[ito]

Rafales are not for Pakistan. Pakistanis need not worry.

 

[ravi gupta]

Rafales are not for Pakistan. Pakistanis need not worry.

But in case of future conflict definitely we will use it.