PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[Viper0011.]

Pakistan has preferred US planes because of US financing Arrangements

They were all part of the Overall and total Aid Package ; which was available after 9/ 11

US aid to Pakistan is counted as civilian aid and military aid

With France there was no such aid package ; only cash payments

Ok, thank you for your detailed explanation. If Pakistan and France were talking, I am SURE they knew the deal was on cash, this wasn't the first time Pakistan is buying stuff from France. They actually operate the second largest Mirage fleet after the French in the entire globe. So for you to tell us the deal was cash.......makes no sense as ALL deals with France are cash. PAF loves F-16 as even today, a bock 52 and 60 are able to take out your SU-30's and Rafale's!!!! Its that advanced. Ask your AF about their experience with Singapore, they hate the F-16 as it kicks SU-30's *** about 70% of the time!!!!

 

[mehboobkz]

Today on Rafale/Twitter:

India's BJP is no good:

https://twitter.com/x/status/723125701272989696

 

[Viper0011.]

So, if you understand the technical features of the French embebded inside the french planes, could you tell me what avionics does, PAF was interested for JFT..

You HAD to bring in HAL and all didn't you. The Indian inferiority complex, I cut the remainder of your post. I posted what I have to. . I am not here to get into useless brainless arguments. Call Dessault and MBDA and if you have the pull, they'll tell you about this. Better yet, ask any IAF general, they'll tell you why the IAF shown interest in Rafale 5 years before it was even going to materialize (contract not confirmed and this shiit's been going on since 2011, ONLY to stop the Pakistanis from getting these packages)!!!

 

[zebra7]

You HAD to bring in HAL and all didn't you. The Indian inferiority complex, I cut the remainder of your post. I posted what I have to. You are welcome to go fukk yourself and do research. I am not here to get into useless brainless arguments. Call Dessault and MBDA and if you have the pull, they'll tell you about this. Better yet, ask any IAF general, they'll tell you why the IAF shown interest in Rafale 5 years before it was even going to materialize (contract not confirmed and this shiit's been going on since 2011, ONLY to stop the Pakistanis from getting these packages)!!!

No, off topic brother, we will keep the discussion in other thread. By the way, I posted the Block diagram of the avionics artitecture, and have logo of HAL, which you can ignore for a while.

 

[v9s]

OUR combo of Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 are enough for pakistani F16s !

Mig-29...not even close. When your M2K's are upgraded to M2K5's, then they will be.

 

[Moon]

With the ongoing rafale acquisation by India, a lot of threads on the ramifications are bound to open in the paf section.

MODS will monitor this thread to keep it ON-TOPIC


To New Members;
Any poster posting in urdu or slang will be immediately thread banned. I am sick and tired of watching people posting urdu in english alphabets and will start to actively infract them

I have written a template in my first post in this thread. So that new/young members dont post one liners instead have an idea where to take the content of the thread.

You can pick any of the points in my template to discuss or you can discuss all the points briefly yet comprehensively like milspec just did.

Avoid offtopic one liners or you wont be taken seriously. Morover it takes the forum quality down.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-3#ixzz463l71Hje

Discussion should revolve around these points--- useless posts will be deleted, posters thread banned




1--What is PAF's priority [ Land defence,Sea denial, deep attacks with heavy bombs or smart ammunitions ] ?


2--Can jf-17 completely meet those demands/doctrine even after aesa/ifr probe/composites/strengthened structure/tweaked engine?


3--If not what are the options and possible numbers? Is the cost of buying/ training/maintenance/spare parts/ years to build strategy/ availability rate worth the hassle?


4--S300 copies vs introduction of another 4.5 gen fighter


5--Should we wait another decade for j31 or should we buy some 4.5 gen fighter instead and develop tactics in the meanwhile


6--To Indian posters, what would you suggest PAF do OTHER than bolstering economy and admitting that India is a super power


7--Is the replacement of 190 old fighters with a BVR capable light fighter sufficient keeping in view Pakistan's economy?


8--J10 and JF-17 may have similar capability but they DON'T have SAME capability. Are the J-10 an ideal replacement for the mirage squadrons?


9--Is there any chance of getting reliable subsystems for jft from the French?

10--Other than numbers, what capability rafale brings to IAF, which they wont exploit in the su30 including its naval role

11-- Importance of loiter time in war

12--Are destroyers, submarines, helicopters, s300 derivatives and cruise missiles the answer?

13--Importance of joint ventures for subsystems avionics / ammunitions with countries other than China

How about we turn our Mirages and F-7s, into drones?. It may sound silly, but these planes after re-furbishment could prove to be excellent force multipliers, plus make deep strikes far less risky.
Alot of R&D is needed, but if we pull this off, it will do wonders.

 

[Super Falcon]

Buy SU 35 or S 300MPU and forget rafale SU 30 India has to buy F 22 To counter which it cannot even selling itself

 

[CriticalThinker02]

So recapping all the brilliant analysis done by some very able members on this thread, the options Pakistan has in countering Rafale and other ever increasing conventional forces of India are:

1. Massively increase the JF-17 Block 3 program asap and produce blk 3 in great numbers immediately.

2. Cheaply buying about 200 migs and upgrade it to Jf-17 block 2 levels (still it won’t be a counter to Rafale and S-400).

3. Look for either a 4.5 generation jet today or start investing in a 5th generation jet which will come into fruition in 10 to 15 years of time (if we choose the later which has long term advantages it would mean our air force would be completely outclassed in both quality and quantity for at-least a decade possibly even more and we can’t have both because of the lack of funds).

4. Invest in high altitude, long range and multi layered SAMs (it would still prove costly to procure a capable SAM system the likes of S-400 and have it in enough numbers to counter the likes of Rafales, Su-30 and any other jet India yet still acquires)

5. Procure at-least 20 subs, coastal defense boats, destroyers and frigates to counter the massively growing Indian navy and their possible procurement of Rafale M (not possible since we don’t have the funds).

6. Procure a capable fighter helicopter.

It seems to me the real problems faced by Pakistan’s military to mount any sort of credible defense are the funds and yet we here are either focusing on the Rafale or the S-400 or any other sort of adventures India chooses in the future and not focusing on the real problem and that problem is the funds, if we have/had the money we could acquire all of the listed procurement and investments, we could possibly match or even surpass India conventionally so why don’t we solve the funds problem.

And there is a solution to such a problem, with a simple google search one could find out that India's defense budget is 48 billion USD while compared Pakistan’s defense budget is measly 7 billion USD, now if we compare it to the defense budget of the Arab states lets say Saudi Arabia alone is 80 billion USD, why can’t we make a deal with the Arabs? Overnight we could solve all of our problems, we could simultaneously procure a capable 4.5 jet that will counter the Rafale and also invest in the future 5th generation with the help of China’s J-31 and Turkeys Tai-TFX, we could finally develop our non existent navy, we could even asks the Arabs to stop investing in India, this is the solution right in front of us and I don’t understand why can’t we take it?

Maybe it’s because of a weak non-existent political leadership and also because of a Liberal mindset

@Manticore @MastanKhan @Zarvan @Horus @Hell hound @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @MilSpec @PAKISTANFOREVER

 

[Spectre]

You HAD to bring in HAL and all didn't you. The Indian inferiority complex, I cut the remainder of your post. I posted what I have to. You are welcome to go fukk yourself and do research. I am not here to get into useless brainless arguments. Call Dessault and MBDA and if you have the pull, they'll tell you about this. Better yet, ask any IAF general, they'll tell you why the IAF shown interest in Rafale 5 years before it was even going to materialize (contract not confirmed and this shiit's been going on since 2011, ONLY to stop the Pakistanis from getting these packages)!!!

post reported

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

So recapping all the brilliant analysis done by some very able members on this thread, the options Pakistan has in countering Rafale and other ever increasing conventional forces of India are:

1. Massively increase the JF-17 Block 3 program asap and produce blk 3 in great numbers immediately.

2. Cheaply buying about 200 migs and upgrade it to Jf-17 block 2 levels (still it won’t be a counter to Rafale and S-400).

3. Look for either a 4.5 generation jet today or start investing in a 5th generation jet which will come into fruition in 10 to 15 years of time (if we choose the later which has long term advantages it would mean our air force would be completely outclassed in both quality and quantity for at-least a decade possibly even more and we can’t have both because of the lack of funds).

4. Invest in high altitude, long range and multi layered SAMs (it would still prove costly to procure a capable SAM system the likes of S-400 and have it in enough numbers to counter the likes of Rafales, Su-30 and any other jet India yet still acquires)

5. Procure at-least 20 subs, coastal defense boats, destroyers and frigates to counter the massively growing Indian navy and their possible procurement of Rafale M (not possible since we don’t have the funds).

6. Procure a capable fighter helicopter.

It seems to me the real problems faced by Pakistan’s military to mount any sort of credible defense are the funds and yet we here are either focusing on the Rafale or the S-400 or any other sort of adventures India chooses in the future and not focusing on the real problem and that problem is the funds, if we have/had the money we could acquire all of the listed procurement and investments, we could possibly match or even surpass India conventionally so why don’t we solve the funds problem.

And there is a solution to such a problem, with a simple google search one could find out that India's defense budget is 48 billion USD while compared Pakistan’s defense budget is measly 7 billion USD, now if we compare it to the defense budget of the Arab states lets say Saudi Arabia alone is 80 billion USD, why can’t we make a deal with the Arabs? Overnight we could solve all of our problems, we could simultaneously procure a capable 4.5 jet that will counter the Rafale and also invest in the future 5th generation with the help of China’s J-31 and Turkeys Tai-TFX, we could finally develop our non existent navy, this is the solution right in front of us and I don’t understand why can’t we take it?

Maybe it’s because of a weak non-existent leadership and also because of a Liberal mindset

@Manticore @MastanKhan @Zarvan @Horus @Hell hound @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @MilSpec @PAKISTANFOREVER

Ultimate solution is INDIGENIZATION. But that will take time and needs to be done concurrently with purchases and joint ventures with China and Turkey. So to do all of this we need FUNDS and a booming economy. CPEC and other current economic ventures will eventually get us there but again, time is required for this. Need a stop gap solution for now. That's what the F-16 AND JF-17 upgrades are for.

Please don't insult the Pakistan armed forces by mentioning it in the same sentence as the Saudi coward forces. Saudi Arabia has purchased the world's most advanced and sophisticated weapons from the west en-masse. Even more than india has yet stands to be defeated by a rag tag group of a few 1000 Houthi rebels who have AK-47s and home made rudimentary RPGs. They don't even have shoes or sandals. That is the biggest insult in the whole history of mankind. Compare that to Pakistan who has to either make or buy limited equipment from China. Who has been listed for termination by the world's most powerful military, america and who has to face an enemy to our east who is 8 times our size, has the full backing of the entire west and who is able to purchase the world's most advanced weapons from them. Yet not only have we managed to keep them both at bay we have become the world's first Islamic nuclear weapons state with an increasing and advancing nuclear arsenal and missile force. I hope you are not suggesting that we give the Saudis our brilliant soldiers in exchange for cash to procure advanced weapons. I don't want the blood of innocents on the hands of our armed forces. We are the Pakistani military not some Nazi SS death force.

The answers to Pakistan's problems lie with us in Pakistan and our relationship with China. Nowhere else. Saudis may need us for their protection but we certainly don't need them anymore. Those days are long gone and dead.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Ultimate solution is INDIGENIZATION. But that will take time and needs to be done concurrently with purchases and joint ventures with China and Turkey. So to do all of this we need FUNDS and a booming economy. CPEC and other current economic ventures will eventually get us there but again, time is required for this. Need a stop gap solution for now. That's what the F-16 AND JF-17 upgrades are for.

Please don't insult the Pakistan armed forces by mentioning it in the same sentence as the Saudi coward forces. Saudi Arabia has purchased the world's most advanced and sophisticated weapons from the west en-masse. Even more than india has yet stands to be defeated by a rag tag group of a few 1000 Houthi rebels who have AK-47s and home made rudimentary RPGs. They don't even have shoes or sandals. That is the biggest insult in the whole history of mankind. Compare that to Pakistan who has to either make or buy limited equipment from China. Who has been listed for termination by the world's most powerful military, america and who has to face an enemy to our east who is 8 times our size, has the full backing of the entire west and who is able to purchase the world's most advanced weapons from them. Yet not only have we managed to keep them both at bay we have become the world's first Islamic nuclear weapons state with an increasing and advancing nuclear arsenal and missile force.

The answers to Pakistan's problems lie with us in Pakistan and our relationship with China. Nowhere else. Saudis may need us for their protection but we certainly don't need them anymore. Those days are long gone and dead.

Please keep emotions and personal liberal ideologies aside when we talk about Pakistan's interest, no where in my previous post did I equate Pakistan's forces to that of Saudi-Arabia, I was strictly speaking of Saudi-Arabia's defense budget which is almost double to that of India, as you yourself clearly mentioned Pakistan has already promised to protect the house of saud if they are ever threatened so why can't we take advantage of the situation, yes we have achieved a-lot with a 7 billion dollar defense, imagine what we will able to achieve if our budget was lets say 47 billion.

The very reason this thread exist is because F-16 and Jf-17 upgrades are not enough to counter the Rafales, Su-30, S-400s and compared to India our non existent navy, we need funds and CPEC will take time.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Please keep emotions and personal liberal ideologies aside when we talk about Pakistan's interest, no where in my previous post did I equate Pakistan's forces to that of Saudi-Arabia, I was strictly speaking of Saudi-Arabia's defense budget which is almost double to that of India, as you yourself clearly mentioned Pakistan has already promised to protect the house of saud if they are ever threatened so why can't we take advantage of the situation, yes we have achieved a-lot with a 7 billion dollar defense, imagine what we will able to achieve if our budget was lets say 47 billion.

The very reason this thread exist is because F-16 and Jf-17 upgrades are not enough to counter the Rafales, Su-30, S-400s and compared to India our non existent navy, we need funds and CPEC will take time.

Agree brother. By the way, I am far from a liberal. I misunderstood your post. For religious, cultural, spiritual reasons as well as our beliefs and heritage, Saudi Arabia occupys a SPECIAL place in the hearts of all Pakistanis. I agree that Pakistan should and will always protect the territorial integrity of Saud Arabia (especially Makkah and Medinah) from any threat. I don't however agree that we should fight Saudi Arabia's war of conquest. That is morally wrong and goes against everything us Pakistanis stand for.

On 2nd thoughts I wouldn't be surprised if Pakistan is being secretly funded by Saudi Arabia for our defence purchases. It an open secret that the Saudis funded our nuclear weapons program and that we have unofficially agreed to protect Saudi Arabia with our nuclear weapons. Lots of things are happening behind the scenes. Your suggestion might already be one of them.

 

[Hell hound]

So recapping all the brilliant analysis done by some very able members on this thread, the options Pakistan has in countering Rafale and other ever increasing conventional forces of India are:

1. Massively increase the JF-17 Block 3 program asap and produce blk 3 in great numbers immediately.

2. Cheaply buying about 200 migs and upgrade it to Jf-17 block 2 levels (still it won’t be a counter to Rafale and S-400).

3. Look for either a 4.5 generation jet today or start investing in a 5th generation jet which will come into fruition in 10 to 15 years of time (if we choose the later which has long term advantages it would mean our air force would be completely outclassed in both quality and quantity for at-least a decade possibly even more and we can’t have both because of the lack of funds).

4. Invest in high altitude, long range and multi layered SAMs (it would still prove costly to procure a capable SAM system the likes of S-400 and have it in enough numbers to counter the likes of Rafales, Su-30 and any other jet India yet still acquires)

5. Procure at-least 20 subs, coastal defense boats, destroyers and frigates to counter the massively growing Indian navy and their possible procurement of Rafale M (not possible since we don’t have the funds).

6. Procure a capable fighter helicopter.

It seems to me the real problems faced by Pakistan’s military to mount any sort of credible defense are the funds and yet we here are either focusing on the Rafale or the S-400 or any other sort of adventures India chooses in the future and not focusing on the real problem and that problem is the funds, if we have/had the money we could acquire all of the listed procurement and investments, we could possibly match or even surpass India conventionally so why don’t we solve the funds problem.

And there is a solution to such a problem, with a simple google search one could find out that India's defense budget is 48 billion USD while compared Pakistan’s defense budget is measly 7 billion USD, now if we compare it to the defense budget of the Arab states lets say Saudi Arabia alone is 80 billion USD, why can’t we make a deal with the Arabs? Overnight we could solve all of our problems, we could simultaneously procure a capable 4.5 jet that will counter the Rafale and also invest in the future 5th generation with the help of China’s J-31 and Turkeys Tai-TFX, we could finally develop our non existent navy, we could even asks the Arabs to stop investing in India, this is the solution right in front of us and I don’t understand why can’t we take it?

Maybe it’s because of a weak non-existent political leadership and also because of a Liberal mindset

@Manticore @MastanKhan @Zarvan @Horus @Hell hound @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @MilSpec @PAKISTANFOREVER

bro it is possible but as we all know nothing comes free in this world and the cost we will have to pay for these extremely expensive assets will also be equally expensive.we will become ksa's expandable mercenaries and will be forced to do their bidding sometime even against our own national interests.we will be presenting our strings in their hands for foreseeable future as with our current economy continues proper maintenance and up-gradation of such assets is unsustainable and astronomical (belly can only eat what hands earns for it) look what india had to pay for mirage upgrade.
my recommendation let our army grow at its natural pace (directly proportional to our economy) ,invest our resources wisely and try to reduce corruption as it is a major cause of fund wastage and buying of obsolete equipment which need replacement in every few year(yeah spada sams i am looking at you ).meanwhile let get more MAD
now a question for you my friend why do you think that liberal mindset is preventing our army's growth?

 

[GoldenRatio1618]

PAF should go with these options under mid term strategy
1. To American with F16s Block 50, 52s or F18s with manufacturing plant in Pakistan to fill the gap of all Mirage Fighters
2. Go for Swedish Saab Grippen under transfer of technology with at least 100-150 jets it will also help for JF-17 program in some technological aspects to understand and for designing of next generation Jf-17s.
3. Go for Russians for Su 35s under transfer of technology and JF-17s Engine Manufacturing plant
4. Euro Fighters with same quantity to deal Indian Rafael
OR
5. With Chinese fighters like 100 J11D, 100 JH7B, under transfer of technology with AESA Radar to replace all mirage fighters. and in future this combination will be good for PAF ( J11D, JH-7B, F16s, JF17s, & J31)

For long Term Strategy
keep continue JF-17s Program and J31 with Chinese friends

 

[mikkix]

PAF should go with these options under mid term strategy
1. To American with F16s Block 50, 52s or F18s with manufacturing plant in Pakistan to fill the gap of all Mirage Fighters
2. Go for Swedish Saab Grippen under transfer of technology with at least 100-150 jets it will also help for JF-17 program in some technological aspects to understand and for designing of next generation Jf-17s.
3. Go for Russians for Su 35s under transfer of technology and JF-17s Engine Manufacturing plant
4. Euro Fighters with same quantity to deal Indian Rafael
OR
5. With Chinese fighters like 100 J11D, 100 JH7B, under transfer of technology with AESA Radar to replace all mirage fighters. and in future this combination will be good for PAF ( J11D, JH-7B, F16s, JF17s, & J31)

For long Term Strategy
keep continue JF-17s Program and J31 with Chinese friends

Really? But how.