PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[ito]

But in case of future conflict definitely we will use it.

The chance of large scale conflict are pretty slim between India and Pakistan given that both have nukes.

 

[ravi gupta]

The chance of large scale conflict are pretty slim between India and Pakistan given that both have nukes.

In small scale conflict we need Rafles more then anything and may be 36 birds have taken keeping the in view of that only.

 

[wiseone2]

But in case of future conflict definitely we will use it.

the primary purpose of the Rafales is not to fight the PAF. That said they could be put to use against the PAF

 

[zebra7]

We also have Mirages..... Old pilots of the birds could fly it, without having to step in one, we have their skills and their experience.
That still would be hard, there are ways to block that link, no matter how encrypted, satellites can be brought down too, unfortunately; now you're contacting what you said earlier "4. Those would be still vulnerable to the Link/communication Jamming, Spoofing, Hacking by the enemy."
I can't seem to understand your stance.
The General Atomics Avenger and the Taranis are examples of large and fast drones
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ersonic-stealth-drone-takes-off/#2a8ce86c335a.
The thing is, if we keep counting on the risk of these things, and not bother developing then we aren't getting anywhere.

That is why there is a secret project in India called AURA UAV program.

We also have Mirages..... Old pilots of the birds could fly it, without having to step in one, we have their skills and their experience.

The number of MIGs are far more in India, and many have been retired from the active service Plus HAL can license produce it locally including engine Plus the cost of the MIG-21 is very low as compare to Mirrage.

 

[Moon]

That is why there is a secret project in India called AURA UAV program.



The number of MIGs are far more in India, and many have been retired from the active service Plus HAL can license produce it locally including engine Plus the cost of the MIG-21 is very low as compare to Mirrage.

When do you expect the first AURA to fly?

India's MiGs are in a very "ruffled" condition, it would be expensive to restart MiG's production line, and with the number of MiGs India has to convert them to Unmanned Combat Vehicles.
Same goes for Pakistan.

 

[Wolf]

But in case of future conflict definitely we will use it.

1st get it

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

We also have Mirages..... Old pilots of the birds could fly it, without having to step in one, we have their skills and their experience.
That still would be hard, there are ways to block that link, no matter how encrypted, satellites can be brought down too, unfortunately; now you're contacting what you said earlier "4. Those would be still vulnerable to the Link/communication Jamming, Spoofing, Hacking by the enemy."
I can't seem to understand your stance.
The General Atomics Avenger and the Taranis are examples of large and fast drones
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod...ersonic-stealth-drone-takes-off/#2a8ce86c335a.
The thing is, if we keep counting on the risk of these things, and not bother developing then we aren't getting anywhere.

As what I understand is that you want PAF or any other Air Force for that matter to upgrade their old decommissioned aircraft to drones?

This has been the norm for ages now that old aircraft are able to take off and fly on their own without a pilot with the help of navigation computers coupled with auto throttle and auto pilot. These are normally used for air to air weapons test and also in movie stunts.

These days A4- Fantoms of the USAF are being upgraded for the same purpose.

Now can these aircraft be used for planning strikes against various targets during war is concerned yes but the cost to bring it to the capability of modern aircraft would cost similar to what a new aircraft costs. Hence it is highly unlikely that 2nd and 3 rd Gen aircraft would be given this kind of upgrade. 4th Gen aircraft have a more likely chance of getting this kind of job as they are more computerized and are already incorporating fly by wire and computers to do their flights now. Still they are not 100% free of the Pilot because it is still believed that artificial intelligence can not do a man's job.

 

[ravi gupta]

1st get it

You still have doubts we will not get it.
i can see your optimism.

 

[Moon]

As what I understand is that you want PAF or any other Air Force for that matter to upgrade their old decommissioned aircraft to drones?

This has been the norm for ages now that old aircraft are able to take off and fly on their own without a pilot with the help of navigation computers coupled with auto throttle and auto pilot. These are normally used for air to air weapons test and also in movie stunts.

These days A4- Fantoms of the USAF are being upgraded for the same purpose.

Now can these aircraft be used for planning strikes against various targets during war is concerned yes but the cost to bring it to the capability of modern aircraft would cost similar to what a new aircraft costs. Hence it is highly unlikely that 2nd and 3 rd Gen aircraft would be given this kind of upgrade. 4th Gen aircraft have a more likely chance of getting this kind of job as they are more computerized and are already incorporating fly by wire and computers to do their flights now. Still they are not 100% free of the Pilot because it is still believed that artificial intelligence can not do a man's job.

Hi,
Fly-by-wires are not something new, or out of this world, incorporating them into Mirages would not be difficult either, Chinese FBW systems present on the JF-17 although are very modern however are not catastrophically hiking the jet's price, infact the aircraft to first fully incorporate a a digital FBW cost about 3 million dollars, hence if an entire jet with FBW and everything costs 3 mill a pop, it's doubtful PAF and PAC would have any sort of problem,
Furthermore as I earlier said, about experienced pilots "flying" these birds, that means they are well experienced about the aircraft's performance envelope, and have almost a sixth sense in controlling their aircraft.

 

[Wolf]

You still have doubts we will not get it.
i can see your optimism.

Yes

 

[MastanKhan]

isn't there any possibility of upgrading our mirage fleet to mirange 2k5 standard. I would be interested in cost per aircraft of such upgradation. i mean if it is not such a costly proposition then MLU Mirages upto 2k5 standard can still carry on for a decade. Because, buying an altogether new platform and in large numbers may be too much to implement considering availability of finances. Thanks.

Hi,

After 60 years of service----the mirage 3/5 's have been thru all the upgrades that they could be.

They should be in the GERIATIC ward by now.

 

[zebra7]

When do you expect the first AURA to fly?

That could only be answered, if there won't be such secreacy involved. However, as reported, the Kaveri would be powerplant, and ADA are doing R&D on the flying Wing Model technique.

India's MiGs are in a very "ruffled" condition, it would be expensive to restart MiG's production line, and with the number of MiGs India has to convert them to Unmanned Combat Vehicles.
Same goes for Pakistan.

Indian MIGs are not in that bad conditions, and the MIG-21 BISON are very new Airframe relatively build by HAL.
USA converted MIG-21 as the flying UAV to test its AMRAAM live firing, and it don't need FBW mofification.

 

[weqi]

Hi Viper,

Sometimes---when you throw things up in the air---the truth comes out---. I had an inkling---that is what happened----I knew that is what happened---because many a years ago I wrote on this board---that the French system does not look like a go---.

When the french engineers were killed and the pakistanis did not show and remorse and anger at their murder---I told myself---the french are going to pull the plug at the most critical time----.

Because----at firs the french were expecting the airbus deal which was at a very advanced stage and special concessions were being given to pakistan---pakistan pulled out in favor of boeing on a promise that boeing will get them a direct flight to the U S----.

Then not picking up the M2k's or Rafale after the sanctions came off---then not pursuing on the submarine deal after the french had given us the Agosta 90's----.

The writing was on the wall---it was written on the BLUE SKIES---if paf could not read it---it is a shame.

The paf had the money for 72 F16's BLK52---they could have bought 36-48 Rafales----and the JF17 with its French package would have solved the problem.

The problem is----that the Paf does not have car salesmen to think business for them----.

You know how often we package deals with our banks---we will give them 15 good credit customers and they have to buy 3-4 our bad credit customers as well.

Bottomline---fighter pilots----soldiers should not do car deals---.

I read your comments your, critics are valuable

Viper,

The french were desperate at that time to sell the Rafales. Their production lines were shutting down to 1-2 aircraft----.

And pakistan had hard hard cash for 72 F16's in 2004----which they ultimately donated for the 2005 earthquake later on.

There are some stupid INDIANS still running around claiming no funds at that time.

The French were desperately looking upto pakistan----to be the first customer---they never anticipated the paf would fall into the same trap for the upteenth time.

The biggest fear that the French had was losing the engineers and technicians who were producing the Rafales----thru layoffs.

No orders meant that the assembly line would be shutoff---and the future of french fighter aircraft would be doomed.

The cleverness of the paf bit the nation hard on the ar-se.

The same stupidity that paf is talking about the chinese avionics package---unproven---the same stupidity they talked about the Rafale at that time---UNPROVEN.

It has been shoved up the paf's----now talk about being proven.

INDIAN MINDSET IS WINNING WARS THROUGH PAISA/RUPYYA (MONEY)

 

[Moon]

That could only be answered, if there won't be such secreacy involved. However, as reported, the Kaveri would be powerplant, and ADA are doing R&D on the flying Wing Model technique.



Indian MIGs are not in that bad conditions, and the MIG-21 BISON are very new Airframe relatively build by HAL.
USA converted MIG-21 as the flying UAV to test its AMRAAM live firing, and it don't need FBW mofification.

Ofcourse........

I doubt your pilots agree to your statement, and it's all very debatable, when did the Bisons get their most recent airframe upgrade? And how long does IAF expect it to be in service? If the airframes are "very new" why bother replacing them? There are so many questions.

 

[weqi]

No, off topic brother, we will keep the discussion in other thread. By the way, I posted the Block diagram of the avionics artitecture, and have logo of HAL, which you can ignore for a while.

Dear Zebra

They are americans ""daddy"" of all avoinics better not to complement with Viper0011