PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war

[TexasJohn]

awww.. granddaughter??!! woow congratulations.. but sir lol sorry again i thought you were like our age and thought Muradk sir is the most senior member here hehe..

No prob. Good to know us old farts still have it!!Lol!

Seriously, how would a Gnat do against a Saber 1 on 1? or is that a question loaded with even more questions?

 

[Romanch]

and your source wikipeida? now want mine? you do know that i will make your source look like an ant front of this.....

Wikipedia? I gave you direct links to FAS and Time magazine articles and from where did Wikipedia come in all this? Ohh... you have a problem with all sources which are mentioned in Wikipedia.

Well, thanks for sharing all that material from rather journalistic sources. Insightful... really!

Secondly, when did I disagree with the notion that the Pakistani Air Force performed well during the 1965 war? My entire argument here is though the PAF did outshine the IAF (thanks to superior planes), concluding that Pakistan actually won the war is laughable.

Now, I'm not going to mention the sources which are already mentioned in Wikipedia because I'm sure you have went through them. But here are some other sources which aren't mentioned in Wikipedia -

A history of Pakistan and its origins By Christophe Jaffrelot




Pakistan: eye of the storm By Owen Bennett Jones



South Asia's nuclear security dilemma: India, Pakistan, and China By Lowell Dittmer



War or peace on the line of control?: the India-Pakistan dispute over ... By Robert G. Wirsing




I can point out several more sources but I'm just bored of doing so.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

(thanks to superior planes),

Thanks to superior equipment, training, doctrine ... what else is left in terms of declaring that one institution was better than the other?

The IAF 'generals committed hara kiri? That too is a poor reflection on the IAF.

Anyway, in terms of the thread topic, glad that you agree with the thread title.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Romanch,

You have 4 different ID's on def.pk (3 of which are banned), which usually would result in all four being permanently banned instantly.

Your Ruag ID ban expires in a week or so. Please do not post and troll anymore on this forum till then.

 

[TexasJohn]

Muradk, I would peg you in the same age group as Brig. Ray & Col. OOE. I am probably 10 years younger but still tall, dark, handsome, balder...

Seriously though, this is a question you probably have the answer to - slightly off topic though. How would today's PAF F-16 distingush ( I mean IFF) between an Indian Mirage 2000 ( hostile) and a French Mirage 2000 (friendly)?

I ask because in 1965 both sides had NATO aircraft. Sabres, Gnats, Canberras etc. Was that an issue then?

 

[Muradk]

Great info sir.It's great to know you were part of that strike package.Glad you all returned without any damage to any saber.

Sorry what Oh you must be talking about another mission , yes thank you.
Gnat vs Saber 1 on 1 , If the saber pilot was not experienced he was dead meat but if the saber pilot had more experience than Gnat was a piece of cake , What it took me 20 sec to turn the tables and shot the gnat. Could see him going down but did not see it hit the ground was low on fuel and a lot of AAAs firing it was like 4th of july. I can say this that day God was with me in my cockpit I didn't get a scratch but before landing Pak Army gave me 2 whole in a beloved saber.

 

[Patriot]

Oh sorry sir i thought you were in that mission.My bad just realized i was talking about some different mission ..So when you landed did you talk with AAA Guy who were firing at your saber..

 

[All-Green]

Sorry what Oh you must be talking about another mission , yes thank you.
Gnat vs Saber 1 on 1 , If the saber pilot was not experienced he was dead meat but if the saber pilot had more experience than Gnat was a piece of cake , What it took me 20 sec to turn the tables and shot the gnat. Could see him going down but did not see it hit the ground was low on fuel and a lot of AAAs firing it was like 4th of july. I can say this that day God was with me in my cockpit I didn't get a scratch but before landing Pak Army gave me 2 whole in a beloved saber.

Hahahaha...well those AAA men have a real small window to aim and fire...fire first ask questions later...
BTW, PA Anti Aircraft Regiment also fought with great valor in both wars, brave men who took on Indian fighter Jets in some outstanding duels.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

No prob. Good to know us old farts still have it!!Lol!

Seriously, how would a Gnat do against a Saber 1 on 1? or is that a question loaded with even more questions?

2 squdrons of sabres were modified to be equipped with 1st generation Aim-9B which had only 30% kill ratio and in 65 war 33 were fired and only 3 managed to score a kill! This small advantage was very insufficient to turn the table against Gnats Hunters and Mig-21s while the rest of 70 or so sabres were not.
Only If PAF had F-4E, Mirage-III all equipped with better heat seekers like IDAF did only then we could say PAF were technically ahead of IAF.

 

[Muradk]

Muradk, I would peg you in the same age group as Brig. Ray & Col. OOE. I am probably 10 years younger but still tall, dark, handsome, balder...

Seriously though, this is a question you probably have the answer to - slightly off topic though. How would today's PAF F-16 distingush ( I mean IFF) between an Indian Mirage 2000 ( hostile) and a French Mirage 2000 (friendly)?

I ask because in 1965 both sides had NATO aircraft. Sabres, Gnats, Canberras etc. Was that an issue then?

No never had that issue a foreign fighter before he lands has to give a code if the code doesn't match he is toast. It happens every where when ever you enter foreign Air space you have clearance. During Indo-Pak wars we didn't have much problem anything coming from that side was the enemy that is why we were shot 3 times by PAk Army.
In F-16 and most of our fighters it sends a coded message if its Indian they will not respond to it plus your Air def is so good now a days that before the pilot they know if the fighter is friend or foe And they setup the interception they even know that you are in firing range fire. They can talk you through all of it, But sometimes they become a pain in the As- for a fighter pilot, You have your wing man who is talking to you plus you have Air def talking to you so sometimes you got to tell them shut up I have control.
A little story about ATC and Air def why they can be a nuisance during war.
My son grew up with this girl same school same class same bases most of the time finally they both decided to get married but the problem was in 1971 the girls father was in the ATC when 2 hunters attacked us during 71 war, Now we are taking off with full load and this ediot sitting in ATC says AAAAAAAAAAAAAA I see AAAAAAAAAAAAA 2 HuntersAAAAAAAAAA yes AAAAAAAAAAAAA they are 2 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnow they are diving on you AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnow they are above you AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA now he has to release the button so I can say where so when I got the chance to talk to him it was to late they had bombed the base and I was so angry that I called him a Mother Fuc--- in Urdu and that abuse was heard on all channels and he was a very senior officer. Well we had a big fight told him because of you we could have got the 2 hunters and you cant even speak. Since that day he and I are at war since 4th sept 1971 and the kids couldn't marry.

 

[aanshu001]

2009-1965= 44years, it's like " hmrae dada ke yahan 10 handhi (elephant) they. well boss it's 44 years maximum in this fourm dad's were in primary schools (1st to 5th) in India.

calculate today.

the question is why we are looking in past?
ans: we can't stand in present.

any body who know a bit of psychology can understand it.

we had lost badly to China in 62 and we admit it.

 

[Muradk]

Hahahaha...well those AAA men have a real small window to aim and fire...fire first ask questions later...
BTW, PA Anti Aircraft Regiment also fought with great valor in both wars, brave men who took on Indian fighter Jets in some outstanding duels.

No doubt they did an outstanding job when they started to recognise which Aircraft is ours and which one is the enemy. John Fricker came to my base when I was commanding and flew with him half a dozen missions he asked me what scares you the most and I said
A Fauji with a Air to Air fire power he said way and I answered him laughing The fauji will look up and say TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN and fire

 

[TaimiKhan]

The fauji will look up and say TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN and fire

typical fauji's are like that Sir.

 

[TexasJohn]

Since that day he and I are at war since 4th sept 1971 and the kids couldn't marry.

Poor kids! collateral damage happens in war.

What I meant as far as ID was, will a PAF F-16's on board radar correctly identify the blip on it's radar as friend or foe?

 

[Muradk]

Poor kids! collateral damage happens in war.

What I meant as far as ID was, will a PAF F-16's on board radar correctly identify the blip on it's radar as friend or foe?

Its RWR will pick it up answer is yes.
Answering another question coming soon.

Yes during Afghan war we shot our own F-16 during a dog fight. In the heat of the battle the pilot got to exited and fired without realising that he if firing at his wing man. During such times people loose there objectives and mistakes happen. That is why our old Instructors who were trained by RAF taught us that during a dog fight stay calm don't panic nor give out panic calls wait he will make a mistake and hammer him.