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PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war


yet again.. every indian claims that paf was superior becuase we operated sabres out of which only 25 were capable of firing 1st generation heat seekers and 10 F-104. every indian who claims this has never ever proven how our planes were superior.. Britian replaced its 400 fleet of sabers with Hawker Hunters. IDAF highly regarded them infact in air to air Hunters did quite a job in 6 day wars considering Isreal had far far more superior technology then just sabres. why are indians so deluded that they lost 65 air war even after destroying 100 of their planes while we lost only 20 or so.
 
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The Indians cannot admit that they were inferior in a certain field from us for a few years even.. its a trait I find dismal. Since they are now much much better.
They suffered not because of equipment. But pilot training. Our greatest advantage was American training. It took us out of outdated British syllabus and brought us into the modern age. The Indians did not address this short coming till after 65.
 
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The Indians cannot admit that they were inferior in a certain field from us for a few years even.. its a trait I find dismal. Since they are now much much better.
They suffered not because of equipment. But pilot training. Our greatest advantage was American training. It took us out of outdated British syllabus and brought us into the modern age. The Indians did not address this short coming till after 65.

oh what?
even prior to 65 war IAF and PAF pilots were trained in US and Britain. IAF had the advantage of both soviet and western training while pakistan had to rely on indigenous and US training.. even Georgian, Emirates, Egyptian, Saudi, etc are trained by US so does it automatically make them as good? nooo...
 
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Nope.. The Indians were trained.. but a lot less of them.. also.. unlike us they did not change their doctrine. The Indians went to the US after it offered support during the 62 war. We basically sold our souls to the Americans..Also.. we followed up that training with similar standards at home.
And please dont mention the Saudi's...lol..they have everything they need in terms of equipment but they prefer not to use it...Lowers the resale value I think.
 
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Nope.. The Indians were trained.. but a lot less of them.. also.. unlike us they did not change their doctrine. The Indians went to the US after it offered support during the 62 war. We basically sold our souls to the Americans..Also.. we followed up that training with similar standards at home.
And please dont mention the Saudi's...lol..they have everything they need in terms of equipment but they prefer not to use it...Lowers the resale value I think.

KSA equipment is getting rusty and dusty it wouldn't hurt them if they give us some F-15s 1965 war was a Glorious victory of PAF lets leave at that.
 
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The guns of August - Ahmad Faruqui

Some of the writing about the Indo-Pakistan war of September 1965 borders on mythology. It is no surprise that generations of Pakistanis continue to believe that India was the aggressor and that one Pakistani soldier was equal to 10 Indian soldiers.

A few have argued that the war began in August when Pakistan injected guerrillas into the vale of Kashmir to instigate a revolt and grab it before India achieved military dominance in the region. That was Operation Gibraltar.

When it failed to trigger a revolt and drew a sharp Indian riposte along the ceasefire line, Pakistan upped the ante and launched Operation Grand Slam on Sept 1. Infantry units of the army backed by armour overran the Indian outpost in Chamb, crossed the Tawi river and were headed towards Akhnur in order to cut off India’s line of communication with Srinagar.

In the minority view, the Indian response on Sept 6 across the international border at Lahore was a natural counter-response, not an act of aggression.

I asked Sajjad Haider, author of the new book, Flight of the Falcon, to name the aggressor. He retired as an air commodore in the Pakistan Air Force. A fighter pilot to the bone, he does not know how to mince words : ‘Ayub perpetrated the war.’

In April, skirmishes had taken place in the Rann of Kutch region several hundred miles south of Kashmir. In that encounter, the Pakistanis prevailed over the Indians. Haider says that the humiliation suffered by the Indians brought Prime Minister Shastri to the conclusion that the next round would be of India’s choosing.

The Indian army chief prepared for a war that would be fought in the plains of Punjab. Under ‘Operation Ablaze’, it would mount an attack against Lahore, Sialkot and Kasur. Of course, the trigger would have to be pulled by the Pakistanis.

On May 12, says Haider, an Indian Canberra bomber flew over the Pakistan border on a reconnaissance mission. To quote him : ‘The PAF scrambled interceptors which got within shooting range of the intruder. Air Marshal Asghar Khan’s permission was sought to bring down the intruder. He sought clearance from the president on the newly installed direct line but Ayub denied permission fearing Indian reprisal.’ Laments Haider, ‘If this was not an indication of Indian intentions, what else could have been?’

Oblivious to what had just taken place in the skies above Punjab, and failing to anticipate how India was gunning to equalise the score, Ayub gave the green light to Operation Gibraltar on the advice of his foreign minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto (later president and prime minister). Bhutto had sought out the opinion about Indian intentions from Chinese Foreign Minister Chen Yi during a meeting at the Karachi airport and concluded from the latter’s body language that India would not respond.

So Ayub gave the green light to send 8,000 infiltrators into Indian-held Kashmir. These, says Haider, were mostly youth from Azad Kashmir who had less than four weeks of training in guerrilla warfare. The entire plan was predicated on a passive Indian response, evoking Gen Von Moltke’s dictum: ‘No war plan survives the first 24 hours of contact with the enemy.’

It is also worth recalling what the kaiser said to the German troops that were heading off to fight the French in August 1914: ‘You will be home before the leaves have fallen off the trees.’ The three-month war turned into the Great War which lasted for four years.

Operation Grand Slam abruptly ground to a halt. An Indian general cited by Haider says in his memoirs : ‘Akhnur was a ripe plum ready to be plucked, but providence came to our rescue.’ The Pakistani GHQ decided to switch divisional commanders in the midst of the operation. The new commander, Maj-Gen Yahya (subsequently army chief and president), claimed later he was not tasked with taking Akhnur.

I asked Haider whether the Pakistani military was prepared for an all-out war with India, a much bigger country with a much bigger military. He said it was the army’s war, since the other services had been kept in the dark. The army was clearly not prepared for an all-out war since a quarter of the soldiers were on leave. They were only recalled as the Indian army crossed the border en route to Lahore, a horrific sight which Haider recalls seeing from the air as he and five of his falcons arrived on the outskirts of Lahore.

Maj-Gen Sarfraz was the general officer commanding of the No.10 Division which had primary responsibility for the defence of Lahore. Along with other divisional commanders in the region, he had been ordered by GHQ to remove all defensive landmines from the border. None had been taken into confidence about the Kashmir operation. The pleas of these generals to prepare against an Indian invasion were rejected by GHQ with a terse warning : ‘Do not provoke the Indians.’

Haider notes that the gateway to Lahore was defended by the 3rd Baloch contingent of 100 men under the intrepid Major Shafqat Baluch. He says, ‘They fought to the last man till we (No.19 Squadron) arrived to devastate the invading division. There could have been no doubt even in the mind of a hawaldar that an Indian attack would come. But the ostriches at the pulpit had their heads dug in sand up to their necks.’

In the 1965 war, the Pakistani Army repeated the mistakes of the 1947-48 Kashmir war, but on a grander scale. No official history of the 1965 war was ever written even though President Ayub wanted one. Gen Yahya, his new army chief, just sat on the request until Ayub was hounded out of office by centrifugal forces triggered by the war.

Pakistan’s grand strategy was flawed. None of its strategic objectives were achieved. And were it not for the tactical brilliance of many mid-level commanders, the country would have been torn apart by the Indians. Ironically, in Ayub’s autobiography, one would be hard pressed to find any references to the war of 1965. One is reminded of De Gaulle’s history of the French army which makes no reference to the events that took place in Waterloo in 1815.


War, as Clemenceau put it, is too serious a business to be left to the generals.

The writer has authored Rethinking the National Security of Pakistan. E-Mail : AhmadFaruqui***********
 
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Ok Something I wanted to share with our members.
I just got an email from one of our members I will not say who which said that I quote
Hi As-whole stop being a hero you are so stupid and the members are so stupid that they listen to you. You are nothing but a cheap coungerer why 1 question how did you land you F-86 with canopy open the canopy breaks at those speeds or gets damaged

Now I didn't reply back so how about you telling me while on landing will the Saber cockpit fly away about 120knt some times even faster because of the weather you want to land ASAP.
waiting for an answer think carefully just use common sense.
and our email friend will get his answer automatically :lol::lol::lol: The answer to the question is so simple the our friend will be the biggest ediot on this side of Mississippi.
 
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Ok Something I wanted to share with our members.
I just got an email from one of our members I will not say who which said that I quote
Hi As-whole stop being a hero you are so stupid and the members are so stupid that they listen to you. You are nothing but a cheap coungerer why 1 question how did you land you F-86 with canopy open the canopy breaks at those speeds or gets damaged

Now I didn't reply back so how about you telling me while on landing will the Saber cockpit fly away about 120knt some times even faster because of the weather you want to land ASAP.
waiting for an answer think carefully just use common sense.
and our email friend will get his answer automatically :lol::lol::lol: The answer to the question is so simple the our friend will be the biggest ediot on this side of Mississippi.


F-86 canopy slides back oppose to F-16 which stands up?
 
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Now thats my boy, hopefully our email friend will see this.

This message is for our email friend
Now tell me who is the bigger ediot me or you:whistle:lol::lol::lol:

Canopy of F-6 used to roll back as well.:lol:

Thank you Growler:cheers::pakistan:

no sir i think that guy is simply a genius.. :P

btw i do know that WWII planes were able to fly without the canopy closed at low speed. unless you have the mask on you can do it..
 
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The Indians cannot admit that they were inferior in a certain field from us for a few years even.. its a trait I find dismal. Since they are now much much better.
They suffered not because of equipment. But pilot training. Our greatest advantage was American training. It took us out of outdated British syllabus and brought us into the modern age. The Indians did not address this short coming till after 65.

Yar how can they. They have an ego 5 times bigger than us :lol: now just look at the email I got he talks about 65 , 71 war all the time and doesn't even know where is the head or tail of a saber.:lol::lol:
Another fact which eats IAF is that we have been trained by the USAF and RAF. They have been trained by RAF as well we were the same Air force. The only difference was that our pilots were just naturally good they could think faster act faster and 1 thing we learned by our selves was energy maneuver Nur khan taught us that. With EM you are hardly pulling 2 gs and the Indian is pulling 5 to 6 gs just to stay on your tail. Another thing which I like to make it clear calling Gnat a saber slayer is bullshit. The problem we had in those days were 1 our MOUs ( Mobile observer units ) couldn't ID the fighter it was too dame small 2nd we got shot down by gnats only when we were taking off and they diving from above but every time we meet in a arena where both fighter were is air ready for action they got shot. When ever we saw the Gnats first we shot them again the same problem the dame fighter was too small. I mentioned once I told Atta Gnat behind you punch all tanks and bombs and he replied oh yeah look behind you:lol::lol: and I and saying you are kidding and then I heard the voice Shoop Shoop going from left and right I looked back nothing went inverted and saw a small tiny plane like a bee coming towards me I still could see him but I could see the tracers coming out of him that is how I knew a gnat was behind me.
 
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Guys stay on the topic , Another thing if you don't like the topic stay away from it. because If I step in and talk about 65 you will not like it , You were not there in the skies I was, I just gave you 1 piece of evidence about 71 no Indian has comments on that do you want me to show you another one. Why make a fool out of your armed forces in front of thousands of members. Let it go.:cheers:

Well sir, respecting your pov and the fact that from our side (india) we do not have military pros or IA F pros, makes your comments and claims one sided....

So ...no question of contesting what you are saying....
 
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Yar how can they. They have an ego 5 times bigger than us :lol: now just look at the email I got he talks about 65 , 71 war all the time and doesn't even know where is the head or tail of a saber.:lol::lol:
Another fact which eats IAF is that we have been trained by the USAF and RAF. They have been trained by RAF as well we were the same Air force. The only difference was that our pilots were just naturally good they could think faster act faster and 1 thing we learned by our selves was energy maneuver Nur khan taught us that. With EM you are hardly pulling 2 gs and the Indian is pulling 5 to 6 gs just to stay on your tail. Another thing which I like to make it clear calling Gnat a saber slayer is bullshit. The problem we had in those days were 1 our MOUs ( Mobile observer units ) couldn't ID the fighter it was too dame small 2nd we got shot down by gnats only when we were taking off and they diving from above but every time we meet in a arena where both fighter were is air ready for action they got shot. When ever we saw the Gnats first we shot them again the same problem the dame fighter was too small. I mentioned once I told Atta Gnat behind you punch all tanks and bombs and he replied oh yeah look behind you:lol::lol: and I and saying you are kidding and then I heard the voice Shoop Shoop going from left and right I looked back nothing went inverted and saw a small tiny plane like a bee coming towards me I still could see him but I could see the tracers coming out of him that is how I knew a gnat was behind me.

Sir MuradK....All us Indians and obviously your countrymen always enjoy your posts and respect you as a Hero....even if you fought on the other side of the border.....

But as a soldier Im sure you know that a fight is not a fight unless its with a respectable adversary.....
Thats where us Indians feel a bit left out on this forum.....Pakistani's have you to back them up...they have your amusing and brave anecdotal stories....You're almost like their secret weapon....and a weapon that us Indians dont really have a counter for....

My request to you Sir, if you know of any IAF professionals who fought the '65 war and would be willing to join this forum...... so us Indians could hear stories of the bravery and air-battles that transpired, from the view of our heroes as well, we all would greatly appreciate it....
I feel like it would add a whole new dimension to this forum.....

Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure of knowing an IAF soldier....

Thanks
Peshwa
 
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He is a friend of Air Marshal Rathore (R) i think in USA sir murad can you ask him to join this forum.

Once we both tried to kill each other and now respect each other.
in 1979 I almost killed 2 IAF mig21 pilots. One of them Retd Air cdre Gill, He is now my best friend it is ironic that 40 , 50 years back we were trying to kill each other now we have barbecues together. My neighbor 5 house down the is a Retd Col Indian Army a sardar very good friend and by his actions I can say he was an excellent officer.
Funny thing were we live a lot of construction is going on so lots of snake so our american neighbors even 7 blocks away will either call me , Gill or the Kulgit to kill a snake most of the town know who we 3 are and in the night we go out walking with out walking sticks and kill snakes. During a community fair few American officer who live around us asked that are you are crazy or what and Gill say why he is like the other day you 3 were up at 4 am killing snakes arent you scared and Gill replied what we 3 have gone through snakes are like teletubies:lol::lol:

To my Indian members I of all the people can/will stand anywhere in the world and say that IAF and PAF are the best, They have produced one of the best fighter pilots in the world both countries. It is unfortunate that we are bad neighbors other wise Pakistan and India together is a force not to be taken lightly.
I have asked them 1 time and they refused the only time they talk about war when they are drunk
 
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