PAF superiority over IAF in 65 war

[SQ8]

Yes how can I forget Ansari sahib he is the one who gave me my Master Green Card which is a" A category Instructor Qualification " I flew with him from Karachi to Peshawar I had 1 degree of error Margin to what ever he asked me to do and I passed it.
He is one of the pioneers of PAF very very Senior officer, My Instructor was his student in Risalpure.
Joined PAF on March 16th 1953 retired Dec 29th 1987.

Ill definitely mention you the next time I visit him.
He has been like a second grandfather to me.
His wife was my grandfathers sister.

 

[TexasJohn]

Poor pakistani kiddos straight out of school textbooks still believe they won every war...two words 'grow up' and accept you got your ***** kicked in 1965.
And dont ask for facts since you dont accept any....hope they still dont teach that 1:10 thing in your schools.

And your very first post too!!

Listen up kiddo, don't really care for yet another Indo-Pak pee contest. Either contribute or shut up.

I am trying to get facts here from informed veterans here.

Do you have anything sensible to say?

 

[Muradk]

John During the war the saber we got the first lot E series were low powered but the F Series were fantastic. In 1970 I was in Decca 14SQd we had sabers there. We wanted to see the capabilities of there radars so I got into my saber no ammo took a piss before take off climbed to
24,000/-ft and bang 2 Mig on my tail firing at me I went into a dive and in no time I went supersonic broke the sound barrier problem was not that I broke the barrier problem was I had 2 migs faster than me firing at me and my Stick is hard like a rock couldn't move an inch the saber was not meant for supersonic speeds, Dilemma was the only way I survive is by slowing the speed and get control on the other hand if I slow down they have me for lunch. There were always black clouds over decca out of 300 sorties I landed with open cockpit 97 times because the windshield used to get white and use couldn't see so you had to open the cockpit and see right or left and land.
So I reduced my speed and got into the cloud, When I came out on the other side I was about 50 feet behind the Mig Big Blody engine infront of me and I said yes I got you and pressed the trigger and said oh **** no ammo If I would have had 1 bullet that would have done the trick hard luck.

 

[TexasJohn]

The E had the J47-GE--13 engine vs the J47-GE--27 on the F series?

My understanding was the plans for the upgrading of the E to J47-GE--27 were in place but never really implemented as it would shorten the engine life. Any truth to that? I know I'm asking a lot of questions..

 

[Muradk]

The E had the J47-GE--13 engine vs the J47-GE--27 on the F series?

My understanding was the plans for the upgrading of the E to J47-GE--27 were in place but never really implemented as it would shorten the engine life. Any truth to that? I know I'm asking a lot of questions..[/QUOTE

No not really The "E" was very similar to the "A" with the same J47-GE-13 engine. It was designed to carry a bit heavier combat load.
The "F" was furnished with the J47-GE-27 engine with about 700 additional pounds of thrust (no afterburner), which increased its top speed about 15 mph to 695 mph. Combat range was increased from 660 miles to 923miles. Do you know that F was the first Sabre to haul a 1,200 lb. nuclear bomb, which was carried under the port wing. In order to safely deliver this weapon, the aircraft was also furnished with a LABS (Low Altitude Bombing System) which allowed the craft to escape the blast.

 

[TexasJohn]

Yes, I did hear about the F having early nuke capabilty, also napalm. So the E and F both had the "6/3" wing?

I really appreciate you sharing all this info. All my fly buddies only know Nam and up. For knowledge of the Sabre I would have to find a Korea vet. Or google the internet, and try to weed out the BS from the facts. Far easier to talk to a vet who flew one in combat!

 

[Muradk]

Yes, I did hear about the F having early nuke capabilty, also napalm. So the E and F both had the "6/3" wing?

I really appreciate you sharing all this info. All my fly buddies only know Nam and up. For knowledge of the Sabre I would have to find a Korea vet. Or google the internet, and try to weed out the BS from the facts. Far easier to talk to a vet who flew one in combat!

Sir it is always a pleasure if you really want a tour when ever you visit Denver you are my Guest and my house is open to you, Grandchildern are always welcomed. no one a serious note please if you every visit denver you are my guest and I would love to meet the family as well.
mk
I don't drink but cuban cigars are at your disposal.

 

[TexasJohn]

Sir it is always a pleasure if you really want a tour when ever you visit Denver you are my Guest and my house is open to you, Grandchildern are always welcomed. no one a serious note please if you every visit denver you are my guest and I would love to meet the family as well.
mk
I don't drink but cuban cigars are at your disposal.

Offer most graciously accepted sir. I did drive from Dallas to Estes Park about a couple of years ago in my trusted Cherokee. Had to pass Amarrilo, Raton Pass, Denver, Boulder and then up to 8,000 ft and Estes Park. I was surprised to see Cheyenne mountain and NORAD still active! A day later my buddies and I went to Pike's peak. And they said a middle-aged smoker like myself would never make it!!

I also extend an invite to you and yours if you are ever in the DFW area. I live in Arlington about a mile from the new Dallas Cowboys stadium and the Ranger's ballpark. I would recommend autumn though. Texas can be a scorcher in summer..

 

[luoshan]

YEAGER

“When we arrived in Pakistan in 1971, the political situation between the Pakistanis and Indians was really tense over Bangladesh, or East Pakistan, as it was known in those days, and Russia was backing India with tremendous amounts of new airplanes and tanks. The U.S. and China were backing the Pakistanis. My job was military advisor to the Pakistani air force, headed by Air Marshal Rahim Khan, who had been trained in Britain by the Royal Air Force, and was the first Pakistani pilot to exceed the speed of sound. He took me around to their different fighter groups and I met their pilots, who knew me and were really pleased that I was there. They had about five hundred airplanes, more than half of them Sabres and 104 Starfighters, a few B-57 bombers, and about a hundred Chinese MiG-19s. They were really good, aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. (Source: PIADS)

(General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the Autobiography).
i hope you have a good night sleep.

In 1971 PAF had about 500 combat planes, of which at least 400 of American origin. But US had placed arms export embargo on Pakistan and India in 1965 and there were no deliveries of fighters from US to Pakistan between 1965 and 1971. This means PAF had at least 400 combat aircraft in 1965 of which at least 250 were Sabres and Starfighters. This is not taking into account any crashes and planes used for scavenging for parts in the period of 6 years. So the contention of many members here that PAF had less than 200 combat aircraft in 1965 is obviously false.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

In 1971 PAF had about 500 combat planes, of which at least 400 of American origin. But US had placed arms export embargo on Pakistan and India in 1965 and there were no deliveries of fighters from US to Pakistan between 1965 and 1971. This means PAF had at least 400 combat aircraft in 1965 of which at least 250 were Sabres and Starfighters. This is not taking into account any crashes and planes used for scavenging for parts in the period of 6 years. So the contention of many members here that PAF had less than 200 combat aircraft in 1965 is obviously false.

OMG... you from now on we are going to be ignoring you if you keep posting such surprising stupid stories. Chuck did make few mistakes in his book.. he wrote.. PAF shot down 102 IAF "Migs" so does that mean PAF really destroyed 102 Mig-21s? and then another mistake about 500 planes. in 71 war PAF had only 100 F-6 120 or so sabres, and few B-57 and F-104. thats still less then 250 but later in the 70-71 friends of pakistan provided their planes to PAF which hardly saw any action.
as for your argument of PAF operating 400 is just baseless and stupid.







btw sir TexasJohn.... i found this interesting documentary about RAF early jet age.. very accurate and informative and it sums our argument very well.. RAF inducted F-86 and eventually replaced it with supirior Hunters which was british's pilots dream come true. i am not sure why would india consider their hunters inferior in comparison to PAF early 1950s sabres.

 

[luoshan]

OMG... you from now on we are going to be ignoring you if you keep posting such surprising stupid stories. Chuck did make few mistakes in his book.. he wrote.. PAF shot down 102 IAF "Migs" so does that mean PAF really destroyed 102 Mig-21s? and then another mistake about 500 planes. in 71 war PAF had only 100 F-6 120 or so sabres, and few B-57 and F-104. thats still less then 250 but later in the 70-71 friends of pakistan provided their planes to PAF which hardly saw any action.
as for your argument of PAF operating 400 is just baseless and stupid.

Your yourself quoted Chuck Yeager in your posts.. And now you claim Yeager is wrong. Make up your mind man. Chill

 

[Muradk]

Your yourself quoted Chuck Yeager in your posts.. And now you claim Yeager is wrong. Make up your mind man. Chill

Chuck didn't QUOTE anything wrong Americans use the word MIGs for enemy Air crafts all over the world. Because their doctrine is bases upon Russian planes regardless of they are mirages a or Hunters In red flag the word Mig was used in the back 80s and late 90s than they stated to call the fighters by there real names but still today Russia is as powerful as they were before the breakdown and there fighters are all MIGs.
After WII all the Air battles had one thing in common that was ( MIGs.)

 

[luoshan]

Chuck didn't QUOTE anything wrong Americans use the word MIGs for enemy Air crafts all over the world. Because their doctrine is bases upon Russian planes regardless of they are mirages a or Hunters In red flag the word Mig was used in the back 80s and late 90s than they stated to call the fighters by there real names but still today Russia is as powerful as they were before the breakdown and there fighters are all MIGs.
After WII all the Air battles had one thing in common that was ( MIGs.)

Thanks Muradsaab. Does it also mean that Chuck was right about the number of planes in PAF in 1971? Was it true that PAF had about 250 Sabres and Starfighters in 1971?

 

[luoshan]

IAF was not in favour of 1965 ceasefire: Arjan Singh

By Ritu Sharma

On the 43rd anniversary of the war with Pakistan, Arjan Singh, the only Marshal of the Air Force, who led the Indian Air Force (IAF) during that conflict, rues that the war was too "short" and the IAF was not in favour of a ceasefire.

Singh, one of the first few pilots in independent India, is the first and the only IAF chief to be adorned with the rank of 'Marshal of the Air Force', the only 'five-star' officer in India currently.

"When ceasefire came, IAF was not in its favour as the IAF had consumed only 8-9 percent of its resources. The war was too short," Singh reminisced in an exclusive interview with IANS. Singh became IAF chief in 1964 at the age of 44 years.

The 91-year-old Singh, who was awarded the rank in 2002, also feels that the IAF's resources were not fully utilized.

"I feel in the hindsight that had the IAF known that the war was going to be short it could have used the resources in a bigger way," said Singh.

The Pakistan Army's incursions in India culminated on Sep 1, 1965, in a massive attack in the Chhamb sector (Jammu and Kashmir) by the Pakistan forces. The IAF finally joined the conflict on Sep 6 with a full-blown war breaking out on the western frontier of India.

The Pakistani incursions in Jammu and Kashmir continued for about a month till the ceasefire was effected under the aegis of the UN Security Council on Sep 23, 1965.

Singh, his memory still razor sharp for his age, says that the IAF, after starting off at a disadvantage, soon gained advantage over the Pakistan Air Force.

"We had an impression that the Pakistan Air Force was better equipped as it had air-to-air missiles, Sabre fighter aircraft and better radars than us. On the other hand our Gnat aircraft had short reach and were smaller," Singh said sitting stiffly for a man of his age.

He added that Gnat was not famous before and nobody liked to fly it, as it was difficult to fly and did not give any scope of error.

"But as the war progressed the Gnat shot down two Sabre aircraft, boosting our morale. Its small size was also a good advantage because it could not be seen properly on radar," Singh said proudly.

The IAF was used for the first time in the history of independent India in the 1965 India-Pakistan war. This gave important war lessons that came handy to secure a victory in the 1971 India-Pakistan war, which was won on the strategic use of the IAF.

Close air support missions of the IAF in the Gujranwala sector, in the Sialkot-Lahore-Ferozepur axis and in the Khemkaran Kasur sector in Pakistan, contributed to the destruction of 300 Patton tanks of Pakistan.

"We had planned for a three-month war. Our strategy was to attack Pakistan's rail and communications and at the same time stopping Pakistan Air Force from attacking our bases and operation areas. We wanted to surround Lahore and not capture it as it would have been difficult to sustain," Singh said.

Eventually it was the "failure of communication links" that forced the Pakistan Army to retreat.

 

[All-Green]

IAF was not in favour of 1965 ceasefire: Arjan Singh

By Ritu Sharma

PAF caught IAF and shook them up in 65, does Arjan Singh imply that they wanted a prolonged conflict and so during the brief period available to IAF it did not deliberately do its job?
I think Arjan Singhs comments also reflect regret over how they fared in the exchange.
It was not part of IAF strategy to get their bases strafed by PAF and that you can count on.

Arjan Singh regrets not using the resources in hindsight and i agree that IAF should have been more aggressive and should have made the numbers matter since it had not to fear about attrition like PAF, but the fact remains that it was unable to do so.
PAF which was the smaller airforce and could have chosen to become passive and defensive instead chose to use its resources brilliantly and that is what makes it a great force in the 65 conflict.

What PAF did was carry the fight to the IAF and IAF was found wanting in 65 to overpower PAF with its numerical superiority.
Credit should be given to PAF for doing what it did, it was the better airforce during 65.