PAF should've invested more on J-10s rather than JF-17s

[zavis2003]

A chinese quote
A Journey Of Hundred Miles Begin s with Single Step

And JF17s are our first single step

 

[hj786]

enjine production is so very costly.. only 5 countries are into enjine production in the world.. china might become1 in coming years.

China already is, bro: List of Chinese aircraft engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They have designed and produed good turbojet engines for ages. Now they are starting to produce world-class turbofan engines. WS-10A is done, it's TVC variant soon, WS-13 soon, WS-12 is under development and is a Eurofighter Typhoon EJ200 class engine - I am hoping this can fit in JF-17! There are more turbofan projects too.

 

[qsaark]

Hi,

Courage holds a seat in the second or third row on the viewing stand----F 86 were indeed extremely superior aircraft of its time----as a matter of fact it was the most superior aircraft in the arena----but then there is more to a dog fight than what comes out on a slide show----each aircraft has its strengths and weaknesses----the sabre had a different altitude where it would rule whereas the hunter and gnats had to fly at a different altitude to be in control---the strength of a good pilot is to catch the adversary in their weak position and dictate the terms from their point point of strength.

F 86 sabre was an outstanding aircraft with a computerized aiming of its gun sights---the COURAGE AND PROFESSIONALISM COMES OUT POURING LIKE IF FLOOD GATES HAVE BEEN OPENED WHEN YOU ARE STRAPPED INTO A HIGH CLASS KILLING MACHINE.

By the by----you are a little too harsh in your very first posts---talking about mediocre I Q.

If you might have noticed---we try not to use these kind of terms over here.

Mediocre IQ might look harsh but it was not pointing towards any one. BTW, professionalism does matter otherwise PAF would have repeated the history of 65 in 1971. PAF was even better equipped with MiG19s and Mirages, yet, the air war was a stalemate at best in 1971 unlike in 1965, when PAF had sufficient control over its airspace.

 

[nitetrogen70]

even tho it might be costly cant it be very benefitial to our country

 

[mean_bird]

Let me put this in very simple words for you. You with even a mediocre IQ would not like to fight with your enemy with the help of a friend of your enemy. US/Europe are the friends of your enemy. Time has proven that they have helped your enemy more than they have helped you. I would rather procure an inferior system from a reliable source or better still make my own and develop techniques to use my inferior system against my enemy's superior one. We have to say good bye to our 50 years old spueriority complex that US/European stuff is better. Even in 1965, F86 was not the decisive factor (Hunters and Gnats were not inferior in any respect), it was the courage and the professionalism of our officers and crewmen that saved the day.

dude..I was asking about the "how" and not the "why" (which is obvious). In simpler words, I am asking about the technical aspect of it and not why would US do it.

Any answer by our senior members would be appreciated

 

[mean_bird]

this interview is a bit old... but it clearly states that pakistan can use the f16 block52 against india! no strings attatched!

can you please provide the link to the original interview that appeared in jang and/or the program on ary? thxs

 

[Manticore]

.
its an old interview ,so the original link is now not functional
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpos...9&postcount=17
..
i'm not sure if i can put the alternative link here?i thinks its against the rules....
its in the archives of atleast 2 defence forums

 

[Muradk]

hunter was a beautiful fighter at low levels it performed very well. Comparing to Gnat, Hunter's Rate of role was excellent. The RAF brought Hunter to Peshawar and we used to dog-fight with them they took us out in every time, We were flying F-86s. But within 3 days we found out how to take them out and then every Dog-Fight we shot them down.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mediocre IQ might look harsh but it was not pointing towards any one. BTW, professionalism does matter otherwise PAF would have repeated the history of 65 in 1971. PAF was even better equipped with MiG19s and Mirages, yet, the air war was a stalemate at best in 1971 unlike in 1965, when PAF had sufficient control over its airspace.

Qsaark,

Sir, please read your post again, I am having a hard time understanding what you want to say.

India was better prepared for the air war as well---better air defence systems---the pak army was lead by people without any backbone---the PAF had some issues---they normaly go through that period at times ( all pakistanis rode the cloud of succes for awhile ).

Why should we not have control over our air space in 65 and 71. In 71 we didnot have the control over east pakistan due to "other factors " but the west didnot have any problem.



Let me share a secret with you today---you will be alive 25 years from today---I may not be---but then I want you to look up----pakistan would not have been able to manufacture a jet engine with the capability of the one we have in the F 16 A B today----guess what 25 years from today and we still won't be able to manufacture an engine on our own, that was designed in the 70's.

Talk is cheap guy---as I posted somewhere else----is the
pakistani industry manufacturing a bicycle chain right from scratch---the backbone of the pakistani mobility---we have not been able to do that in the last sixty years---and you are taklking about the superiority complex of u s and europe.

Even though you have not posted on this board alot---but you have been a member for awhile.

This board and the effort of the posters should have been a learning experience for you----someone would have caught onto the thought that indeed----the u s and the european equipment is far superior and way ahead of anyone----and if we desire to make or manufacture anything----we try to emulate it to the closest possible to the product we are copying if any product we have manufactured.

Any and every individual need to have respect for the technical advancements that the u s and europe have made over the years---they indeed are at the rightful place to be proud of their achievements and yes we should not be ashamed or embarrassed to look upto them and acknowledge what they have done and state that they are the best and then try to do it like them first taking baby steps and then getting into their stride and follow the lead of the leader.

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark,

Sir, please read your post again, I am having a hard time understanding what you want to say................ getting into their stride and follow the lead of the leader.

Battle at Longewala and air raids on Karachi by IAF proved that PAF did'nt have total control over its airspace in 1970.

When I had to choose a country to do my post doctorate, my first choice was USA. Simply because this is one country where one can do best Science. I always was and still am fully aware of technological advancement of the USA.

What I actually meant from "superiority complex of US/western stuff" was not that they are not superior. All I am saying is, albeit of their superiority, they are not coming from a RELIABLE source. Hence, we should avoid inducting them into our military. Why? because we use military hardware to defend our freedom. It is too risky to defend our freedom using unreliable hardware in terms of supply and support. We have suffered because of this in 1965, in 1971, and in 1985 (Pressler amendment). And more recently when USA is willing to sell anything to India with ToT but not to Pakistan. I cant speak for others, but personally, I would like to defend my self with a reliable even though an inferior weapon.

 

[Manticore]

i guess it was only a misconception...nothing to quarrel about.. total misunderstanding..



plz kindly give some comparison on j10b-super hornet in layman 's terms can j10b compete with the indian mrca and su30-- and the jft with mlu f16s in the long run?

 

[MastanKhan]

Qsaark,

Thanks for the explanation. Now we are on the same page. Pakistan is an america centric millitary. That was decided in the 50's---through the 60's 70's 80's and the 90's. We made a choice and we stuck with it----america armed us for a maybe invasion of the russians----everytime we got excessive weapons and felt strong---there was a conflict with india---and the americansd would say---hey---these weapons were to fight the russians---not the indians.

Nobody can say about the pakistani millitary that it does not know what a great weapon system is, that it does not know how to manage an operate a great aircraft against all odds, that it does not know what the advantages are to have the highest of the quality of a weapons system.

In the shape and form of F 86 sabre---pakistan was initiated to the most prestigious club of high tech american air superiority fighter----a Dom Perignon of champagnes---PAF proved that it truly was a worthy air force and justified their procurement.

The quality was never an issue---paf had always done their homework beforehand---they knew up front that if the american aircraft engine required overhaul at 1000 hours----the chinese engine needed an overhaul between 150 to 200 hours---.

No coming down to why we went for the american equipment----F 16 blk 52----as we already had and F 16 operational infrastructure in place--we needed a stopgap aircraft to compete against the indians asap rather yesterday----coming up against all the aircrafts that were available to us and the time that PAF took to decide----the BLK 52 was the only plane that met the criteria of PAF.

You see---PAF moves at its own pace---it has a very hard time to make a decision while on its feet---which means that even if it sees a good thing happening----it has a hard time catching on to it----secondly----it has always been caught flat footed----caught up in the trap of mis-information---has misguided and misled.

I will go through these issues one by one----the pressler amendments---incidently during that time I was going to school here in the us of a. Pressler was a pakistan hater and india lover----alongwith Steven Solariz. He tried real real hard to place sanctions on pakistan regarding the nuclear issue and Reagan being Reagn---always nullified the attempts----which means that pakistan knew upfront that sanctions were acoming----the only people who didnot know and didnot want to believe were the pakistanis---Reagan left office and Bush sr came in---a good man as a person but nowhere in control as Ronald reagan. Reagan had control of the congress---both sides of the house---Bush had no such imagination. Reagan is stated to have asked---does it say 'The Bomb ' on the side and his advisors would say no----so he would say then there is no bomb---Bush didnot have that kind of savy---when the proposal came for sanctions---he had nowhere to go but to sign the presidential order----.

PAF wanted to live the illusion that nothing was lost---they kept paying on it and kept paying on it till they paid it all off and then some----you see these flyboys had the brains and determination to fly the american planes but didnot have the brains and intelligence to understand the american system and american law and building relationship with the american defence manufacturer.

The first first flaw in the contract was that the contract was drawn between the u s govt and pakistan govt. The payments were being made to the u s govt. General dynamics would be paid by the u s govt. That was the cardinal sin of them all. In time of adversity----pakistan had leverage ove no one to get the planes and the place they could have asked for help----they never appealed to it.

Question arises---why to sign with general dynamics---raher than u s govt. Genral dynamics was a reputable company---reputable companies donot renig on their contracts first of all---they don't like embarrassment---it cost them cancelled contracts----cancelled contracts mean lost jobs----lost jobs mean unemployment---unemployment means that in the coming election every two years----the congressman from that district will be facing the wrath of the unemployed people---who would in turn want to select someone else to do the job---now in this case if the congressman from genrl dynamic production plant area found out that a congressman or a senator of another state is doing something that could hurt the production line and job situation----this congressman will pickup the phone and call Pressler and Steven Solariz---and say---you want to create problem in my constituency by putting in an amendment for sanctions against pakistan---it will create unemployment and create problem for me---here is what I am going to do---I am going to vote against the project in your congressinal district so that you don't get any new jobs---and I will vote against giving you any aid for your existing programmes---you want to take my job---I will light a fire under your hinny.

Second thing----american law clearly states that in a purchase agreement---a aggrieved party that has been making its payments on time, can stop making payments if there arises a dispute regarding the delivery of the product in question and bring the dispute to court in good faith. Some fool told paf that it will upset the u s ----can you imagine the law suit filing country getting upset over the filing of a law suit---slack of understanding reached another level.

 

[Muradk]

i guess it was only a misconception...nothing to quarrel about.. total misunderstanding..


plz kindly give some comparison on j10b-super hornet in layman 's terms can j10b compete with the indian mrca and su30-- and the jft with mlu f16s in the long run?

Yes it can be done as long we can find the right tech for it.

 

[MastanKhan]

contd:


Now, we are in the early 90's----pakistan decides that it is time to go for the mirage 2000. Sanctions had put a severe dent on paf's capabilities. Benazir and co go ahead and make the deal for the mirage 2000.

The deal is at its final stages---when there is a rumour started by our very own---aka---the enemies of pakisdtan---the 5th columnists---that zardari has a commission coming---the air force officer dealing with the issue even though a very honest officer----could not comprehend the deception behind the rumour and niether the pakistani nation----they both got fooled possibly by the RAW---pakistani people, the air force officer and paf for sure didnot have any vision at all to what was happening and what was at stake.

Nobody thought if the mirage 2000 purchase is cancelled who benefits the most----it was india that benefitted the most fool.

In 1983 I was at ogden utah about 5 miles from hill airforce base---the biggest f 16 base in the country or the world---any way---flyers stated that it took a fighter about 6---10 years to reach the stage of an excelent pilot on that plane. It was a new plane---so far ahead of its time---so much to offerthat even after 30 years later there were new models coming out---.

The 93 purchase of mirage 2000 would have started delivery and within 3 years time we could have had 3 plus sqdrns of that plane----now pakistan would have had an aircraft which could compete with every plane in the IAF mano a mano except for the su 30. By the year 2002----paf could have purchased from a 100 plus aircraft from france with all the bells and whistles----and upgrades----by this time in 2008 we would have also had 2---3 sqrdns of Rafaels----because we would have become a french dependent air force---the su 30 superiority would not have even have been discussed----it would not have been a question on the posted threads of pakistani defence web-sites.

So---someone tell me today---what difference would it have made if Zardari had made 50 or a 100 million profit on the deal---could our air force be a lame duck floundering in the pond as it is today---and all of us are talking about what they are goijng to be 5 years from now.

I am a firm believer that I would rather have an officer who may think on his feet and understand the deception and deceit of the enemy---rather than an honest man in his mind and in front of his friends. I would rather work with and have a man with some kind of LARCENY in him than someone---all someone can say is that he is honest.

So---what I am saying is that we know that sanctions is a way of life with america---we ought to be ready to deal with it---.

The PAF should have gone for the "QATARI" mirage 2000's and procured 2---3 sqdrns more to counter the threat of indian mirages and su 30's----all those planes would have been in our inventory by this time---we would have had the best french bvr's and possibly a sqdrn of rafaels at sargodha and 2 more sqdrns on its way. The PAF fell on its face one more time.

Why do I say that---even though india has not attacked pakistan---but the scenario has come pretty close---and once again the paf has been caught with its pants around the ankles. Truthfully---we have lost another round. How many more we will lose till the real thing hits us---I guess that we are never goingto catch up----paf has already made the coup-de-grace on the pakistani state.

 

[ahmeddsid]

contd:


Now, we are in the early 90's----pakistan decides that it is time to go for the mirage 2000. Sanctions had put a severe dent on paf's capabilities. Benazir and co go ahead and make the deal for the mirage 2000.

The deal is at its final stages---when there is a rumour started by our very own---aka---the enemies of pakisdtan---the 5th columnists---that zardari has a commission coming---the air force officer dealing with the issue even though a very honest officer----could not comprehend the deception behind the rumour and niether the pakistani nation----they both got fooled possibly by the RAW---pakistani people, the air force officer and paf for sure didnot have any vision at all to what was happening and what was at stake.

Nobody thought if the mirage 2000 purchase is cancelled who benefits the most----it was india that benefitted the most fool.

In 1983 I was at ogden utah about 5 miles from hill airforce base---the biggest f 16 base in the country or the world---any way---flyers stated that it took a fighter about 6---10 years to reach the stage of an excelent pilot on that plane. It was a new plane---so far ahead of its time---so much to offerthat even after 30 years later there were new models coming out---.

The 93 purchase of mirage 2000 would have started delivery and within 3 years time we could have had 3 plus sqdrns of that plane----now pakistan would have had an aircraft which could compete with every plane in the IAF mano a mano except for the su 30. By the year 2002----paf could have purchased from a 100 plus aircraft from france with all the bells and whistles----and upgrades----by this time in 2008 we would have also had 2---3 sqrdns of Rafaels----because we would have become a french dependent air force---the su 30 superiority would not have even have been discussed----it would not have been a question on the posted threads of pakistani defence web-sites.

So---someone tell me today---what difference would it have made if Zardari had made 50 or a 100 million profit on the deal---could our air force be a lame duck floundering in the pond as it is today---and all of us are talking about what they are goijng to be 5 years from now.

I am a firm believer that I would rather have an officer who may think on his feet and understand the deception and deceit of the enemy---rather than an honest man in his mind and in front of his friends. I would rather work with and have a man with some kind of LARCENY in him than someone---all someone can say is that he is honest.

So---what I am saying is that we know that sanctions is a way of life with america---we ought to be ready to deal with it---.

The PAF should have gone for the "QATARI" mirage 2000's and procured 2---3 sqdrns more to counter the threat of indian mirages and su 30's----all those planes would have been in our inventory by this time---we would have had the best french bvr's and possibly a sqdrn of rafaels at sargodha and 2 more sqdrns on its way. The PAF fell on its face one more time.

Why do I say that---even though india has not attacked pakistan---but the scenario has come pretty close---and once again the paf has been caught with its pants around the ankles. Truthfully---we have lost another round. How many more we will lose till the real thing hits us---I guess that we are never goingto catch up----paf has already made the coup-de-grace on the pakistani state.

I dont completely agree with your words, but it speaks Logic, and I must commend u on it. I am against corruption, but it wouldnt have hurt if zardari gained a few pounds for such a great aircraft.

PAF wasnt caught that much with its pants down I feel. They were sort of prepared, I mean they had faith that they could do something, even though India has got some awesome planes. If someone was not prepared, then it would have been the PN i feel. for me PAF is everready. The Fact that India couldnt destroy PAF completely in 71 or 65 goes a long way to prove that PAF was and is ready.