PAF is well-equipped, updated force: air chief

[hassamun]

Why does every thread become Pakistan VS India??? Both Forces have their strengths and weaknesses... All of you really want to see who is better? Wait for a WAR!

 

[John Reese]

i never compared anything, however, who cares, you are entitled to your own opinion

Well Its nothing personal
I just said passing IRST sensor are better in Tracking range wise

Pirate IRST can detect aircraft at 50Km in front to 90 KM rear

with missile like ASRAAM They becomes invincible machine

 

[S10]

If Pakistan's economy improves in the next 10 years, you guys can probably start replacing the F-16s with J-31 and the rest with JF-17 Block III. The main obstacle to Pakistan's modernization is political stability causing sluggish growth. Nobody wants to invest if they think the security environment is horrible and corruption is rampant.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Not True

You would have a point if our geographical distance was 2000km, but we live right next to each other. There will be limited BVR Engagements but most of the fights will be in WVR, because if the IAF wants to damage PAF, it will have to punch through the border and enter PAF's airspace.

For limited BVR Engagements, we have plenty of F16's and JF17's. Keep in mind, in the present day and age Strike Packages are the name of the game. A PAF Strike Package will contain a mix of Mirages, F7 PG's, F16's and JF17's. F16's and JF17's to provide air cover and engage in Electronic Warfare, PG's to guard the Mirages for close WVR Fights and Mirages to deliver Strikes. Not as simple as you might think, the F7PG rightly used is a deadly aircraft.

With the enemy's long range SAM in place, the conflict will go BvR.
you will not be allowed to get close to be able to strike; u will be squatted from far far off.

 

[Moon]

IM Talking About High Off Bore Site IRCCMs Like Aim-9x ,MICA R-73E,Python-5 A-dater Etc
you Quoted me First try to Know about the subject


This Not IRST Its reconnaissance pod For Ground Missions Much Like Lightening G series . Here is Old Thread About This Picture you posted @Quwa Kid Don't Fool Around Im Veteran PDF Member
https://defence.pk/threads/could-jf-17-benefit-from-a-photo-recon-pod.425175/


Talking About Long-range Passive IRST Sensors Please Name the Sensor

Let Me give you Examples Of Passive IRST Sensors Around the World Air-forces
An Passive IRST sensor on the Su-27.

OSF (Optronique secteur frontal)

PIRATE-IRST on Typhoon

SAAB Gripen with its Skyward-G IRST

OLS optical detection pod used on Sukhoi-30 MKI

And I mentioned IRCCMs separately, and gave examples of highly battle proven missiles within the PAF inventory, read my post again.

Sniper is another IRST in PAF inventory. Here from LM:

What is Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP)? A targeting pod that provides superior air-to-ground and air-to-air targeting capability. A targeting pod more reliable and sustainable than any other in the field. A targeting pod that’s continuously upgraded with the most advanced technology. A targeting pod trusted by customers worldwide.

They're on the F-16s.


I hope you read this post thoroughly.

 

[Asifkamal]

We have to accept that since 1991, after American arms embargo, we have neglected our air force. By 1990,s we failed to purchase 32 mirage 2000-v or 44 mirage 2000-s . Even we could,t purchase a dozen of them so that by next decade purchase another dozen.
Then by 2000 onward we lost opportunity to get F16 block 52 in large numbers( initial wishlist was 75 then 55 then 36 ). It seems that we were joking to ourselves. We were making dramas. Now we are not only on defencive side but too mipuch defencive side.
Still we are unable to decide either to go for j11, j10 or su35 or European side????
And neither we are trying to get atleast 60 second hand f16 from different countries and upgrade them as soon as possible to prepare for a war, nit for air display on 23rd march.
Our jf17 is still lacking air to air and air to grounfpd systems. We are just playing

 

[John Reese]

And I mentioned IRCCMs separately, and gave examples of highly battle proven missiles within the PAF inventory, read my post again.

Sniper is another IRST in PAF inventory. Here from LM:

What is Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP)? A targeting pod that provides superior air-to-ground and air-to-air targeting capability. A targeting pod more reliable and sustainable than any other in the field. A targeting pod that’s continuously upgraded with the most advanced technology. A targeting pod trusted by customers worldwide.

They're on the F-16s.


I hope you read this post thoroughly.

That Is nothing Comparable Against Passive IRST Sensors You are Talking SNIPER ATP Which is Basically is SAR Based Pod Comparable to LITENING G series or Damocles (targeting pod) are Advanced FLIR Targeting Pods With limited IRST capability The Lockheed Martin Sniper is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.
Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod

US Invested On Pod Base IRST These ae Examples of Passive IRST Sensors in USAF Inventory

• Lockheed IRST21 Sensor System

Another Lockheed Martin Advanced Legion Pod

And This My Favourite And World No 1 IRST Sensor is F-35 is AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS)

The F-35's DAS was flown in military operational exercises in 2011 and has also demonstrated the ability to detect and track ballistic missiles to ranges exceeding 800 miles (1300 kilometers)

And I mentioned IRCCMs separately, and gave examples of highly battle proven missiles within the PAF inventory, read my post again.
:

Dear This has Nothing to do with 3 generation High-Off Boresight Missile Like Aim-9X & Or MBDA ASRAAM or Python-5

Which gives Unlimited Advantage In Dogfight You can Just Lock A Target By Just Looking At It

As For IRCCM you Need A Passive IRST Sensors Like I Mentioned Above

 

[notorious_eagle]

and how come F-7 PG will come so close to indian fighters.

When the IAF crosses the border or gets close.

there are few tactics that can be employed but how many times they will be effective?

Every Time. In order for the IAF to achieve its stated tactical and strategic goals, they need to punch through PAF's Defences on the Border and Engage in Knife Fights. Anything less than that, and we are just pretending to play war.

it seems PAF has developed some methods to make their jets invisible to enemy radars, eyes of the enemy pilots and suddenly these jets will appear on the tail of the enemy fighters out of no where. cho mantar.

You're clearly getting confused here my friend. Both sides have comprehensive Radar Coverage over each other. With the introduction of AWACS, both sides can now even spot blow flying fast movers or attack helicopters. Thus, there will not be a surprise from either side.

the attacking enemy jets will be in complete package with jets with designated roles .

Exactly, and the interceptors will engage them as they see fit. Your entire premise relies on the fact, that PAF will fight the IAF under their rules.

right but what will be the opposition for such a strike package? Su30, AWACS, Rafales, S400 etc. attacking deep inside the enemy territory will be a nightmare for both IAF and PAF specially for PAF due to limited numbers of hi tech jets. the only solution to this solution is fifth gen jets

Again, you're looking at the entire spectrum through Black and White. That's just fan fiction nothing else, Modern Warfare is not fought like this. Whatever Strike Package the IAF sends, PAF has the necessary SOP's and the interceptors to deal with it. Fifth Generation Jets is certainly not the answer, not by a long shot. Again, you're looking at things black and white. First, the rest of the world is still decades away before they can field a sophisticated Aircraft like the F22. Second, whether its China or Russia hasn't even come close to replicating the RCS reduction capabilities that we have seen on the F22. Third, there are Radar Developemnts that are happening Parallel and how long before Radars are developed that have the ability to spot Aircrafts with minimal RCS. Unfortunately, your entire premise is based on Black and White Theories.

IAF will hit hard... After countering our F-16 and JF-17 with MKI MiG 29 Rafales Even (F-16 block V or F-18) do you think that IAF will send their jets to a WVR fight they can take our Mirages and F-7 in a target practice

This is not a movie my friend. In order for the IAF to punch through the border, they have to engage in WVR Knife Fights. If not, than we are just pretending to play war. They can take BVR Shots from far away, and we can do the same. The farther the missile is fired from, the lower its kill ratio. E.g If the MKI fires a BVR shot from 70 km away, the PAF Interceptor can just turn and escape its maximum range.

We don't even have a Deep strike Mission aircraft we are just A Defensive force weather it's our Navy or Airforce

We don't need to send in Fighters for Deep Strike Missions, this is not the 90's. This is exactly why PAF has invested heavy resources into developing Stand Off Weapons. Why send an Aircraft to carry out a Deep Strike, when the Cruise Missile or a Long Range Gliding Bomb can do the same.

Sir I Request you to Research More About Indian EW Capabilities

I am well aware of IAF's EW Capabilities, they are simply top notch. But they are not even close to being Superior Enough to overwhelm PAF's Capabilities. I suggest you go back a few years, and we debated extensively in regards to PAF's EW Capabilities.

The Arena of WVR Combat Changes In IAF Favor After Introduction high-angle off-boresight IRCCM Missiles With HMDS

India Uses 4 Types of HOBS Missile Currently

• R-73E
• Python-5
• AIM-132 ASRAAM
• MICA RF/IR

Capability Which All PAF Current Generation Fighter Aircrafts Lacks

That is not true my friend.

AIM-120C
SD10-A
PL9-III
etc all have Off Bore Sight Capability

What PAF lacks is a 5th Generation WVRAAM such as the AIM-9X but PAF has been operating 4th Generation WVRAAM for quite some time. Here's a little homework for you, F7PG's were firing 4th Generation WVRAAM's cued up with their HMD's in High Mark Exercise 2010. Find out what Missile that was.[/QUOTE]

 

[John Reese]

That is not true my friend.

AIM-120C

SD10-A
PL9-III
etc all have Off Bore Sight Capability

Aim 120C is Not HoBs

Guindance system
inertial guidance, terminal active radar homing

The AIM-120D (P3I Phase 4, formerly known as AIM-120C-8) is a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range. The AIM-120D is a joint USAF/USN project, and is currently in the testing phase.





SD-10 or
PL-12 Guidance System
Inertial / Data-link (mid-course)
Active radar homing (terminal phase)
Not HOBs Missile

Only PL-9 Its Infrared Homing version is HOBS
PL-9 is The missile is fitted with a cryogenic Liquied gas-cooled IR seeker capable of +/-40 degree off boresight angles. Flight control is by long span pointed delta fins at the front of the missile with Sidewinder-type slipstream driven on the aft tail fin surfaces to prevent roll and so enhance the operation of the guidance system. The missile has a maximum effective range of 35 km and an altitude limit of 6.5 km.


PS: For IRCCM Missile You Need Passive IRST Sensor To Use its Full capability Which PAF Currently Lacks Like OLS or Pirate or SKYWARD

PAF Can use It Only IF US allow Integration Of PL-9 In F-16 Blk 52 Equipped With Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) That Not Possible Currently

China Is developed Its own HMDS or IRST Sensors F0r J-10C & J-11 Which Rumoured To be Featured in Jf-17 Blk-3 Lets Wait For It

 

[asif_hussain]

Hi,
Please go through the 20+ threads in which various scenarios have been simulated showing the MKI and IAF as whole being countered.


I am sure IAF isn't incompetent as you state it is, did it completely forget all about China?.
Before you go on any further PAF has both AIM-9 and PL-9, which both are IRCCMs.
As well as AIM-120 a highly successful BVR missile, PAF's F-16s incorporate HMD, which will become a standard for JF-17s too.

Any who, the punch line is that the statement by the Chief is in regards to battle readiness and professionalism of the PAF. Maybe something similar can be said about the MKI's had they ever reached the peak of their battle readiness.

Well apart from the 500 AIM 120C which are almost at half time of their shelf life and will be useless in next 5 years if not updated or refurbished and 18 odd block 52 F-16 and if we assume PAF can maintain 90% availability with the jets though global average for F16 is 80 % so there are 16 block 52s with half a decent Mechanical radar and some Electronic jamming its open season for IAF atleast in the air to air battle at least PAF may then try to use their stand off munitions but most of them can be detected and dealt with they are a series of subsonic CMs and gravity bombs nothing special after that IAF can go on to finish PAF and with their arsenal of BVRAAMS they posses including meteors soon to be inducted with rafael i don't see any problem they will face in completely neutralizing PAF by remaining close to or inside their own border thus forcing a quick surrender or forcing PAF to attack its like poking a guy holed up in his fort with a very long stick and getting the best of them

PS IAF in this context is indian AF not israeli AF just to avoid any confusion lol

 

[John Reese]

I am well aware of IAF's EW Capabilities, they are simply top notch. But they are not even close to being Superior Enough to overwhelm PAF's Capabilities. I suggest you go back a few years, and we debated extensively in regards to PAF's EW Capabilities.

The Trend Has Changed in years I think Sir You should Do More Research in this Regard

India Already Using AESA Based EW Jammers & DRFM in its Mig-29 & MKI Phase-3
With Phalcons & India C4ISTAR Structure Environment And Its vast Satellite Surveillance And Aerostat radars

You Should Check India SPRI report in this regard

 

[_NOBODY_]

China Is developed Its own HMDS or IRST Sensors F0r J-10C & J-11 Which Rumoured To be Featured in Jf-17 Blk-3 Lets Wait For It

Or Skyward G

 

[John Reese]

some time. Here's a little homework for you, F7PG's were firing 4th Generation WVRAAM's cued up with their HMD's in High Mark Exercise 2010. Find out what Missile that was

Sir Far The News Go Its Was HMS Russian helmet sight Fired PL-9 AAM Its Not latest HMDS Sight Like TopSight or JHMCS

As Far My Knowledge Only Serviceable Russian HMD's is ZSh-5 / Shchel-3UM used for HMD/Archer combination Used in MiG-29 and Su-27 I Doubt This News

IAF HowEver Rejected Russian helmet sight We Prefer to Use Elbit DASH 3/5 And TopOwl-F(Topsight/TopNight) With R-73E HOBS Missile

Is there Any authentic Source for this Subject

 

[Moon]

Well apart from the 500 AIM 120C which are almost at half time of their shelf life and will be useless in next 5 years if not updated or refurbished and 18 odd block 52 F-16 and if we assume PAF can maintain 90% availability with the jets though global average for F16 is 80 % so there are 16 block 52s with half a decent Mechanical radar and some Electronic jamming its open season for IAF atleast in the air to air battle at least PAF may then try to use their stand off munitions but most of them can be detected and dealt with they are a series of subsonic CMs and gravity bombs nothing special after that IAF can go on to finish PAF and with their arsenal of BVRAAMS they posses including meteors soon to be inducted with rafael i don't see any problem they will face in completely neutralizing PAF by remaining close to or inside their own border thus forcing a quick surrender or forcing PAF to attack its like poking a guy holed up in his fort with a very long stick and getting the best of them

PS IAF in this context is indian AF not israeli AF just to avoid any confusion lol

This, by far is the most dafted summary I've come across.
1) When will the Rafale come?. I've heard this deal since I was a child, how many Rafales habe been purchased? . Otherwise, go through this thread
https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-ramifications-of-rafales-sale-to-india.427156/

2) Block 52 maintain a 100 percent availability. And move about constantly across nation from Jacobabad, Sargodha etc.. Do research.
3) Your assessment of Meteor missile is based on equipment that IAF might buy vs equipment that PAF has.
4) Funny how you think that in the air war, PA would not aid PAF and destroy IAF bases with Babur.

That Is nothing Comparable Against Passive IRST Sensors You are Talking SNIPER ATP Which is Basically is SAR Based Pod Comparable to LITENING G series or Damocles (targeting pod) are Advanced FLIR Targeting Pods With limited IRST capability The Lockheed Martin Sniper is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.
Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod

US Invested On Pod Base IRST These ae Examples of Passive IRST Sensors in USAF Inventory

• Lockheed IRST21 Sensor System

Another Lockheed Martin Advanced Legion Pod

And This My Favourite And World No 1 IRST Sensor is F-35 is AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS)

The F-35's DAS was flown in military operational exercises in 2011 and has also demonstrated the ability to detect and track ballistic missiles to ranges exceeding 800 miles (1300 kilometers)

Dear This has Nothing to do with 3 generation High-Off Boresight Missile Like Aim-9X & Or MBDA ASRAAM or Python-5

Which gives Unlimited Advantage In Dogfight You can Just Lock A Target By Just Looking At It

As For IRCCM you Need A Passive IRST Sensors Like I Mentioned Above

There's a saying:
"If someone is chasing after you with a gun, it won't matter what Caliber it is."
It doesn't matter if Sniper isn't the best pod, and again go to LM's website and see the Sniper's capabilities, it is well capable of engaging Air targets. Please read through the previous posts.
I see your attitude unfit for logical debates. Please do not quote me again.

 

[John Reese]

• There's a saying:

"If someone is chasing after you with a gun, it won't matter what Caliber it is."
It doesn't matter if Sniper isn't the best pod, and again go to LM's website and see the Sniper's capabilities, it is well capable of engaging Air targets. Please read through the previous posts.
I see your attitude unfit for logical debates. Please do not quote me again.

You Ego Is Not Letting You Believe that you are not Expert on this Subject of Discussion . That FLIR Targeting Pod Has Limited capability compared To a Passive IRST Sensor In Image Processing That Can Guide IR Seeker of Infrared Homing Missile To Lock on Its Target

Do you You Know What Is Difference Between FLIR Forward looking infrared (FLIR) And Passive infra-red search and track (IRST) system

Sniper ATP The pod incorporates a high definition mid-wave FLIR, dual-mode laser, visible-light HDTV, laser spot tracker, laser marker, video data link, and a digital data recorder. Advanced sensors, and image processing incorporating image stabilization, enable targets to be identified at ranges which minimize exposure to defensive enemy systems. The dual-mode laser offers an eye safe mode for urban combat and training operations along with a laser-guided bomb designation laser for guiding munitions.
(Basically For A-to-G roles)

Read Below
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_looking_infrared


Also read What Is Passive IRST Sensor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infra-red_search_and_track




What Is the Use Sniper ATP when it has Detection range of Mere 5-10 KM That At Rear Detection Even New Generation LITENING G4 Series Pods has better Detection than This .Example Israeli AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING Pods are More Service of USAF & USN Than Sniper ATP Pod.

1. A Dedicated Passive IRST Sensor Like The Eurofighter Typhoon's PIRATE IRST can detect subsonic fighters from 50 km from front and 90 km from rear
2. OSF (IRST) of the Dassault Rafale, below the cockpit and to the side of the refueling boom. On the left, the main IR sensor (100 km range), on the right a TV/IR identification sensor with laser rangefinder (40 km range)
3. The OLS-30 (36Sh-01) Of Sukhoi-30 MKI developed by UOMZ with a vibration-proof receiver, micro-cryogenic system, improved service life and new software. Perhaps also has TV channel. Range 90 km in pursuit, 40km head-on

Which Made Lockheed Martin Change Its Strategy To Dedicated Passive IRST Sensor Pods Like

• 
  
  
  • Lockheed IRST21 Sensor System
  • Lockheed Martin Advanced Legion Pod

Read
http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/us/products/InfraredSearchTrack.html
http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/us/products/legion-pod.html

PS: Please Improve You Technical Knowledge About Subject In Hand Before Going For Factual & Serious Technical debate. An Advice Don't Take it in Harsh Way
TC

 

[MastanKhan]

We have to accept that since 1991, after American arms embargo, we have neglected our air force. By 1990,s we failed to purchase 32 mirage 2000-v or 44 mirage 2000-s . Even we could,t purchase a dozen of them so that by next decade purchase another dozen.
Then by 2000 onward we lost opportunity to get F16 block 52 in large numbers( initial wishlist was 75 then 55 then 36 ). It seems that we were joking to ourselves. We were making dramas. Now we are not only on defencive side but too mipuch defencive side.
Still we are unable to decide either to go for j11, j10 or su35 or European side????
And neither we are trying to get atleast 60 second hand f16 from different countries and upgrade them as soon as possible to prepare for a war, nit for air display on 23rd march.
Our jf17 is still lacking air to air and air to grounfpd systems. We are just playing

Sir,

You post is an apologist post for the paf. Paf was never neglected---they dug their own grave and sunk the nation in it as well.

 

[Lavrentiy]

Sir,

You post is an apologist post for the paf. Paf was never neglected---they dug their own grave and sunk the nation in it as well.

What should have been done in your opinion? What would have been your plan of action?