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Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

Wasn't the whole point of going nuclear without the "no first use policy" was to not get into arms race with india??

Yes.

And we achieved that successfully.

indian army was humiliated twice in last decade. Both times, indians had to back-down even after they made initial aggressive gestures.


Pakistani deterrence succeeded.
 
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Bossman---the bear hunter is back---you will always stay a kiss arse---now won't you.

Wasn't the whole point of going nuclear without the "no first use policy" was to not get into arms race with india??

No---when we went nuclear---we had nothing---an air fleet that was under sanctions and barely flight worthy----could not have fought for 2 days. Now our fighter aircraft capabilities are a 100 times more than they were 12 years ago plus our anti air defence is stronger.

Now---if we get an infusion of 12 to 15 batteries of LR SAMS and heavy strike aircraft with BVR capabilities---we won't have to use the nuc threat anymore---we will just Duke it out the old fashioned way.

I don't know if the posters have noticed any change---neither does pak military and nor does the govt officials threaten to use the word nuc anymore---like it was used 8 to 10 ago by every tom dick and harry.
 
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Yes.

And we achieved that successfully.

indian army was humiliated twice in last decade. Both times, indians had to back-down even after they made initial aggressive gestures.


Pakistani deterrence succeeded.


Congrats.
So you wold agree that pakistan dosent need a fighter bomber then.
No point of investing huge sums both in nuclear weapons and deep penetration fighter.

Bossman---the bear hunter is back---you will always stay a kiss arse---now won't you.



No---when we went nuclear---we had nothing---an air fleet that was under sanctions and barely flight worthy----could not have fought for 2 days. Now our fighter aircraft capabilities are a 100 times more than they were 12 years ago plus our anti air defence is stronger.

Now---if we get an infusion of 12 to 15 batteries of LR SAMS and heavy strike aircraft with BVR capabilities---we won't have to use the nuc threat anymore---we will just Duke it out the old fashioned way.

I don't know if the posters have noticed any change---neither does pak military and nor does the govt officials threaten to use the word nuc anymore---like it was used 8 to 10 ago by every tom dick and harry.


So basically meaning getting into arms race with india.Well good luck.
 
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Pakistan air force has been dominated by the fighter pilot mafia for the longest. It shows in their attitude---it shows in the decisions that they make---it shows in their management style---it shows how they comprehend the current and future threats---it shows in what their current and future plans are for aircrafts to be inducted and procured in the near and future.

Dear sir,
Being from a potentially adversarial country, let me point out among the three services of pakistan, PAF has been the most stellar i strategic planning.

Traditionally the fighter pilots gets the glory while the bomber pilots are ploughing thru the enemy forces on the ground---a job most consider worthless but is as glorifying and rewarding. If you could compare a fighter pilot to a race car driver speeding his car on the race track---then the bomber pilot would be like the heavy equipment driver that laid down that road.
The example would have been valid 5 decades ago and the associated planning would have been apt for fighting a like sized adversary in WWII, but times have changed, today's there is no fighter pilot, there is no bomber pilot, all that remains is a monolithic networked entity with multiple tools like the offensive, defensive, elint platforms to best achieve it's needed objectives.
This fighter pilot mindset has been dominant for decades over PAF and in its current form and inventory---since the last A5 Fantan retired---this air force does not have a dedicated bomber aircraft in its inventory and neither does it plan to get one.
true, it doesn't. Pakistani Airforce does have F16's Multirole aircrafts along with JF17's which can carry standoff munitions, which gives the ability to a sinngle platform to deal the same damage that a A5 squadron could...
If the PAF was facing a smaller enemy---it would be an acceptable error---but when the enemy has intentions of deploying 35 + division across the border from it case of a war---the current or the upcoming inventory has no heavy bombers to do strike missions on enemy forces---it does not even have medium range bombers either, to make massive strikes on the ground forces and armored columns of enemy vehicles.
It comes down to investment and threat assesment, the divisions that your enemy intends to deploy are mostly without any geographical cover, if you can detect at the right time, the roles of heavy bombers can be easily augumented by cruise missiles and SRBM's at a fraction of the cost, leading to freeing up the valuable capital for procurement of game changing platforms such as submarines, SLBMS and hyper sonic CM's.


All it has is small aircraft like the F16's, the JF 17's and the Mirage aircraft which do not carry a heavy load---. They need an aircraft---a fighter bomber that can carry a load of 15-20000 lbs at least and is also capable of firing Bvr missiles as well---on naval strike missions---this aircraft could take on a load of at least 6 to 8 air to ship missiles as well as a couple of Bvrs---on ground strike mission with a load 8 one thousand lbs bombs at a minimum or a configuration of smart bomb load.
That is the nature of wishlists, if you did get one that can carry your wishlist, you would then want one that can carry 20-30K lbs, and then stealth and sensor fusion and then autonomous flight AI, etc etc. Pakistanis official line of strategic rationale is minimum credible deterrence, once your economy stabilizes you will be able to get nicer goodies for your military. Until then then priorities needs to remain absolutely resolute, PAF is focussing of denying air superiority to IAF, along with that the multirole options give the ability to the platforms to mount offensives on key military installation within enemy lines. Without securing it's own defenses if PAF wants to gamble all in then it just doesn't risk loosing a war, but it's existence too.

If cost is a concern----Paf should look at the upcoming JH 7B---the other option is off-course the J11 series.

The most important part of the buying the aircraft----Paf should only be used as a consulting firm---the civilian defence minister needs to take into consideration what the air force says it needs are and what other independent sources are saying what the air force needs.

That is a very interesting line of thought. While buying a car you must have certain requirements that you know of, assuming you are an expert in the field and have had the higher experience in operating maintaining manufacturing and developing cars for last 60 years, do you go buy what suits your need or what your relatives and independent sources have told you?
As far as JH7B is concerned, if PAF has had the due diligence to evaluate rafale, m2k, efts,J10, and even the tigershark back in the day, what makes you think it hasn't evaluated JH7 with it's premier defence partner?

The minister should make a decision independent of air force fighter pilot mafia---he must and he should look at the broader picture in balancing out the air superiority to the use of a sledge hammer.

Musharraf did a great job of diversifying the air surveillance aircraft much to the dislike of the air force---and over the time---his decision proved to be right---even though the air force fought tooth and nail against it.
And musharraf's job was based on his expertise as an air combat tactician? buying chinese awacs that can only communicate on air with chinese platfoms nd SAAB platforms which can communicate with F16's was a good move? without ground relay station half of your ELINT is paralysed?
RIght people for the right job, If there are inadequacies in the defence procurement, the right way to deal is to fix it not, change it's nature. Instead setting up a defence procurement committee headed by all three services, with budget allocations made in your by a parliamentary committee would be more apt. don't ever let guys who dont know the difference between a bullet and cartridge into a room on making decisions o what to buy.
 
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Congrats.
So you wold agree that pakistan dosent need a fighter bomber then.
No point of investing huge sums both in nuclear weapons and deep penetration fighter.




So basically meaning getting into arms race with india.Well good luck.

Because of our smaller and at an angle geographical position to india---we don't need to get into an arms race to macth---but we need to have certain weapons systems in place so that we have enough in lesser numbers to give us an edge n countering the strikes and making some decisive ones on our own as well.
 
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Congrats.
So you wold agree that pakistan dosent need a fighter bomber then.
No point of investing huge sums both in nuclear weapons and deep penetration fighter.

Robust conventional capability is necessary.

Pakistan Air Force needs a fighter-bomber aircraft that can conduct strike missions thousands of kilometers away from mainland.

Preferably, Pakistan would get 50 to 75 J-11Bs or fully upgraded Su-35s in similar numbers....
 
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the point is , will PAF listen ?? we are discussing and busting our Balls here , do the strategic planners of PAF give Sh!t about it ?? they do have this in their mind or not ?
or they are just so relaxed that Pakistan got nukes, so it will never come to war ...:coffee:
 
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Robust conventional capability is necessary.

Pakistan Air Force needs a fighter-bomber aircraft that can conduct strike missions thousands of kilometers away from mainland.

Preferably, Pakistan would get 50 to 75 J-11Bs or fully upgraded Su-35s in similar numbers....


But why why why???
yOU do realize that deep strike mission are executed in a full scale war.
So what is your policy??bleed the enemy a bit more before going nuclear?A bit inane imho.

These bomberes are a neccesity only in the imagination of pdf fanboys.
I think It will be more prudent to spend all that moolah on improving air defense capabilities.
 
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Senor,

You are incorrect in your assessments and knowledge--. All your 3 points are invalid----that time will be too late to launch---supposedly by that time all will be neutralized.

The best time would be when all the 30 + divisions are within 30 to 50 miles of Pakistan's border---that would be the time to let the tactical nucs go----then target all the big cities all govt offices and building with a mega strike all at one time---a VOLLEY OF 75 TO A 100 NUCS---AND KEEP THE OTHER 100 FOR SECOND STRIKE---.

To prevent the war from happening---paf needs heavy strike and bomber aircraft---and as we have talked in other posts---a bunch a LR SA batteries---.

Basically money s not the issue---it is either you do and live or you die.

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So, before a war even starts, you want Pakistan to launch Nukes inside the boundaries of a sovereign nation.

"It is either you do and live or die" that brought down the Soviet Union, and countless other Empires and Nations who were economically weak but decided to engage in an Arms Race.

:disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree::disagree:

If money was not an issue why doesn't Pakistan buy twin engine long range fighter jets? Or making an Aircraft Carrier Battle Group? Or investing it's infinite funds in R&D?

What i'm trying to say is what other people have said in the regards to why Pakistan doesn't have a Bomber Fleet. Is:

1. $
2. Strategic/ Tactical Commanders what a versatile platform.

If you want to compare the PAF to the USAF/ VVS/ PLAAF so be it. These countries have comfort that their enemies are far away from their borders. Pakistan and India's 'enemy' is within spitting distance.

A thread about war gets 9 pages, a thread about promoting peace gets nothing.

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indian army was humiliated twice in last decade. Both times, indians had to back-down even after they made initial aggressive gestures.
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Nonsense, the Indian military don't dictate policy in India. They do what they are told, they mobilised because the political leaders ordered them to and stood down for the same reasons when the political leadership decided to take a more restrained and mature approach.

This humiliation business doesn't even come into it.
 
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Air Commodore Tufail retired from the PAF after a long and illustrious career which included evaluation of key platforms still being used by the PAF. Mastan Khan wanted to be a PAF pilot but was rejected and has spend most of his career selling used cars in California. Please decide who is qualified to talk about military planning and procurement.

Mastan Khan joined this forum way back in 2005 and had a privilege to have a credible analysis and debate on various military and defence articles. Bossman on the other hand joined this forum in 2010 while having little or no credibility, he just wanna be a smart *** as he lacks the ability to evaluate and analyse anything in a true and respectable manner.

Just 2 words from me. Grow up and learn to respect others.
 
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We simply do not have to bomb iaf bases that far.If we can bomb IAF FOB`s,then its job done for PAF.Then IAF will loose any potential to retaliate with massive numbers.

How about delhi?:DIts only 426 km from lahore.JFT`S LOADED WITH raad alcM:cheers:
And you think.. IAF can't hit PAF bases... whereas PAF can attack FoB and even Delhi? ??
 
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IAF can't hit PAF bases.
Who said that......o_O

the point is , will PAF listen ?? we are discussing and busting our Balls here , do the strategic planners of PAF give Sh!t about it ?? they do have this in their mind or not ?
or they are just so relaxed that Pakistan got nukes, so it will never come to war ...:coffee:
The only problem is money.....U give me money,I`ll buy u Rafales,J31,su35,etc. PAF has think tanks which have greater insights than us.Nobody there is sitting idle.I heard in an interview of a former Army chief that we evaluated a lot of weapons even like chinooks but the problem was shortage of money.When pakistan`s economy got better in 2005 and there were plans to modernize PAF,then that devastating earthquake derailed the program for modernization of PAF by diverting money to the rescue and rehabilitation of the affected.
 
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Who said that......o_O


The only problem is money.....U give me money,I`ll buy u Rafales,J31,su35,etc. PAF has think tanks which have greater insights than us.Nobody there is sitting idle.I heard in an interview of a former Army chief that we evaluated a lot of weapons even like chinooks but the problem was shortage of money.When pakistan`s economy got better in 2005 and there were plans to modernize PAF,then that devastating earthquake derailed the program for modernization of PAF by diverting money to the rescue and rehabilitation of the affected.

dont worry , you will get the cash by this weak , i will break my " Gullak " and all you will have Coins
 
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