Paf Is Run By Fighter Mafia Jocks---Kaiser Tufail Is Wrong

[SipahSalar]

Reminds me of the problem with USAF. The USAF wants to have nothing to do with Tactical and Close Air Support. After WW2 it has been hijacked by Strategic bombing fanatics even though the effectiveness of strategic bombing is questionable during war. Thats why they are hell bent on getting rid of A-10 thunderbolts.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Desperate for a new high-tech combat aircraft, between late 1990 and 1993 the PAF evaluated the European Panavia Tornado MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) and rejected it. The Mirage 2000E and an offer from Poland for the supply ofMiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised. In 1992 the PAF again looked at the Mirage 2000,


In mid-1994 it was reported that the Russian manufacturers Sukhoi and Mikoyan were offering the Su-27 and MiG-29. But Pakistan was later reported to be negotiating for supply of the Dassault Mirage 2000-5. French and Russian teams ,

@MastanKhan sir' is this true ? don't tell me, we were offered su-27 mig-29 & for some God forsaken weird reason we turned it down ! & I thought, we didn't have any choice, in the 90's coz nobody was willing to sell us , this report, if true is heart breaking, it means that, what we knew as the lost decade (the 90's) was actually the lost "opportunity" decade , this is just heart breaking & I don't know what to say, I had PAF wallpaper on my room in the 90's ,I used to pray for opportunity of countries willing to sell us fighter jets

 

[SipahSalar]

Also in response to your essay. I think PAF is doing fine. The thing is, if India deploys a cold start doctrine, then they will need massive air support, without that they simply will not be able to push through since Pakistan will mobilize its own forces. For CSD to take effect, it has to utilize surprise. That requires heavy use of Air Force to push through Pakistan's defensive lines.

If PAF plays a heavy Air Superiority role, it can push back IAF enough that Pakistan can mobilize its forces for prolonged war.

 

[melb4aust]

even there they are failing
they are planning to defeat the enemy air force with what? multirole single engine medium and light aircrafts? facing what? dedicated twin engine heavy air superiority fighters and missile trucks.


cruise missiles will not replace the need for the strike fighters .. YET in our life time.
cruise missiles have a niche and a place but they are not the primary weapon
they are for select and high value limited targets. much like special forces vs. larger regular troops.
imagine how many cruise missiles you need to stop 33 divisions moving on your country from Sindh to Kashmir.

I am not against induction of Bomber aircrafts as they are potent to any airforce in the world. One factor we are all missing here is the development of short range ballistic missiles (Hataf series) that can carry small yield nuclear war head to cope what ever number of divisions. But again such move can also trigger nuclear holocaust at larger scale. However, the fact is there which allows to switch your minds off from tactical bombers.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan sir' is this true ? don't tell me, we were offered su-27 mig-29 & for some God forsaken weird reason we turned it down ! & I thought, we didn't have any choice, in the 90's coz nobody was willing to sell us , this report, if true is heart breaking, it means that, what we knew as the lost decade (the 90's) was actually the lost "opportunity" decade , this is just heart breaking & I don't know what to say, I had PAF wallpaper on my room in the 90's ,I used to pray for opportunity of countries willing to sell us fighter jets

Hi,

Let me clear this again----I did not ask for dedicated bombers but fighter bombers which can carry a heavier load and still defend themselves if need be---strike aircraft with a good weapons load capability.

The purpose of this aircraft to also basically a show---we have it---we can use it----and it will be used---this aircraft will also be used as an air superiority aircraft with its heavy load of BVR's and electronic's package or purely a bomb truck as the need maybe---it is an OPPURTUNISTIC WEAPON---you use it as the need maybe---you use it as the opportunity becomes available---otherwise---it can be used for all the short hauls.

And yes---we were offered all these aircraft. You have been on this board for a long time----you should know my stand on the M2K---.

So---Pakistan was looking for 40 M2K's---as the deal reached its final stages---it was learnt that there was close to a 4 million dollars bribe involved---the deal maker could not accept the fact that 4 million was being paid to 'someone---or a similar amount---so he cancelled the deal.

For the last 20 years---I have not been able to comprehend this issue----. What is 4 million or 40 million dollars----. I have always looked at this way---You want to buy 40 aircraft----due to unseen reason you get only 39 aircraft---does that still turn the balance in you favor!!!

@MastanKhan Sir

All armed forces do a TEN year Perspective planning and force planning
depending upon the

1 likely availability of resources
2 Threat perception from adversaries
3 Evolving technological scenario

I dont think that PAF has goofed up or ignored some important needs

They just have a very tight budget given the economic problems of Pakistan

Sir,

Please don't patronize----.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Let me clear this again----I did not ask for dedicated bombers but fighter bombers which can carry a heavier load and still defend themselves if need be---strike aircraft with a good weapons load capability.

The purpose of this aircraft to also basically a show---we have it---we can use it----and it will be used---this aircraft will also be used as an air superiority aircraft with its heavy load of BVR's and electronic's package or purely a bomb truck as the need maybe---it is an OPPURTUNISTIC WEAPON---you use it as the need maybe---you use it as the opportunity becomes available---otherwise---it can be used for all the short hauls.

thanks for putting is nicely what I meant to say.
I expect our top tier F-16 blocks to be performing SEED or air superiority role,
with Mirages retired, I dont know how many JF-17s would be needed to full fill a bombing mission which a single heavy fighter bomber can perform due to its greater payload capacity

this is exactly what I meant, some fighter bombers that can hold their own while doing the bombing runs on the Indian cold doctrine battle groups. hitting where our artillery cant reach or hit the hidden and constantly moving target. loitering the battleground and taking out targets of opportunity. something that limited number of cruise missiles cant do leaving them to target more strategic and stationary targets like factories, command centres, airbases, depots etc

 

[Judge]

One thing i want to point out is that Pakistan has missiles like the Nasr missile which are custom built to stop tank columns from advancing. I think the main focus of the air force is to push back the Indian air force and ground forces backed by Nasr missiles to stop advances of the tanks. Strategies are not really discussed here but it is a simple counter strategy for advancing tank battalions

No.
Nasr without nuclear warheads is close to useless against tank columns. Its a Battlefield BM.
Do a calculation and you will answer the result yourself -
1.what is the quantity of HE a tactical BM would carry,
2.what would be the blast radius of a conventional tactical BM
3. What is the general spacing between tanks in an invading armoured column.
4. What is the spacing an armoured column would keep when it knows it would be targeted by Ballistic Missiles
5. What is the terrain of Punjab and Rajasthan - wide expansive lands or narrow mountainous areas/passes.

Answer these 5 questions and you will know that Nasr in a conventional role is next to useless for an armoured column.

It is because of point 2 that the Pakistani military has learnt NOTHING.. and by that I mean no changes in mentality or ideals... since its inception. They are still stuck in the 20th Century in terms of fighting ideas and concepts

By contrast, the Indian military is producing leaders that are much more attuned to the 21st Century.

If possible, I would request you to validate both these statements by examples and cover(s) as to what has made you come to this conclusion.

 

[HRK]

For point 1 it is only termed as lost decade because PA relayed on USA too much and USA slapped Pakistan to hard that Navy and Air force almost fell.

Only because of PA and PAF .... ???

plz go & read economic reports of that time even reports from official sources would surprise you .....

2.This is a common mindset in Pakistan that all civilians are bunch of idiots,Pakistan is just suffering because of PA policies in all fields.

This is just stereotype comment from your side would not response to it.

 

[Gufi]

No.
Nasr without nuclear warheads is close to useless against tank columns. Its a Battlefield BM.
Do a calculation and you will answer the result yourself -
1.what is the quantity of HE a tactical BM would carry,
2.what would be the blast radius of a conventional tactical BM
3. What is the general spacing between an invading armoured column
4. What is the spacing an armoured column would keep when it knows it would be targeted by Ballistic Missiles
5. What is the terrain of Punjab and Rajasthan - wide expansive lands or narrow mountainous areas/passes.

Answer these 5 questions and you will know that Nasr in a conventional role is next to useless for an armoured column.

Well a push into Pakistan by multiple armed divisions will call for tactical nucs i think this missile has been specially made for tactical nuclear weapons in my view.

 

[Judge]

Also in response to your essay. I think PAF is doing fine. The thing is, if India deploys a cold start doctrine, then they will need massive air support, without that they simply will not be able to push through since Pakistan will mobilize its own forces. For CSD to take effect, it has to utilize surprise. That requires heavy use of Air Force to push through Pakistan's defensive lines.

If PAF plays a heavy Air Superiority role, it can push back IAF enough that Pakistan can mobilize its forces for prolonged war.

1. There is no surprise for India or Pakistan. When either mobilizes, the other will know.
2. India is purchasing C-17's for this reason - so as to be able to move critical strike corps equipment to FAB
3. Regardless of anything India does(short of placing the Strike Corps on the border like its Pivot corps) - Pakistan will always be able to mobilize first.

You have misunderstood CSD, it is not an attempt to beat Pakistan to the border.

Well a push into Pakistan by multiple armed divisions will call for tactical nucs i think this missile has been specially made for tactical nuclear weapons in my view.

Exactly my point - Nasr without nukes against an armoured column is useless.

But if you use nukes on an Indian armoured column, its not the tanks and planes you have to worry about next.

 

[Gufi]

1. There is no surprise for India or Pakistan. When either mobilizes, the other will know.
2. India is purchasing C-17's for this reason - so as to be able to move critical strike corps equipment to FAB
3. Regardless of anything India does(short of placing the Strike Corps on the border like its Pivot corps) - Pakistan will always be able to mobilize first.

You have misunderstood CSD, it is not an attempt to beat Pakistan to the border.


Exactly my point - Nasr without nukes against an armoured column is useless.

But if you use nukes on an Indian armoured column, its not the tanks and planes you have to worry about next.

Exactly any invasion leads to a lot of nuclear weapons being fired and just the fall out from those weapons would make life in the whole of south east Asia quite difficult. And that is why it is called a deterrent do not attack or everything goes boom

 

[Green Arrow]

Thanks. really good analysis

 

[SQ8]

If possible, I would request you to validate both these statements by examples and cover(s) as to what has made you come to this conclusion.

Quick example to show where the thought process lies... Until there was actual pressure by the PAF for the Army to realize that the IAF will simply knock off its tank columns from miles away, there was satisfaction with just having MANPADS for columns and Radar guided AAA for command nodes. By contrast the IAF had AAA and battlefield SAM systems in its inventory from the 80s.

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Well a push into Pakistan by multiple armed divisions will call for tactical nucs i think this missile has been specially made for tactical nuclear weapons in my view.

Yes if they cross a certain limit(occupy a vast area of pakistan),then we will certainly use nuclear BM`s to clear indian armoured divisions and then reoccupy our lost areas.

But if you use nukes on an Indian armoured column, its not the tanks and planes you have to worry about next.

So do u.And believe me no one`s gonna win in that case contrary to indian beliefs that india can sustain more nuclear hits and so can survive in a nuclear war with pakistan.No country will be destroyed completely even in case of full nuclear attack

 

[niaz]

I am against having bombers for the simple reasons that in today’s environment a bomber or a heavy strike aircraft such as F-111 carrying 30,000 lbs of ordinance 1000 miles inside enemy airspace stands little chance of survival against an enemy whose air force has the likes of Typhoon or Raphael or even SU-30 MK1 & F-16 c Block 60 armed with AMRAAM missile which has 40 miles range and flies at Mach 4.

Majority of the ordinance carried by today’s bombers such as B-52 H is stand-off weapons consisting of AGM142 Raptor/Popeye, AGM-86 C air-launched cruise missiles (CALCM) & joint stand-off weapons (JSOW) etc. B-52's can still drop conventional bombs but only after complete air superiority has been achieved.

There is little doubt that PAF is in need of a deep penetration aircraft with at least 500 nm range with max payload in the hi-lo hi profile. F-16 in the company of “Buddy tanking” F-16’s could possibly do the job. However Indian airspace would be bristling with S0-30 Mk1 & Rafael and there are bound to be losses. Unless PAF has at least 6 to 8 squadrons of F-16, don’t think PAF can afford to take the risk. It is therefore likely that in the event of an India Pakistan war, deep strikes (beyond 500 miles) will only be carried out by medium range missiles.

There must be quite a few ex - PAF professionals here and I would appreciate their ideas as to how PAF could bombs Indian military bases located near Luknow or farther east.