PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - TO BE CONFIRMED

[MIG21DOWN]

Best to get 3-4 dozen air frames now using CSF funds (if not with CSF funds then don't do it and just go for the J-10CE with AESA), and if they pan out in terms of a future upgrade great, but if they don't then no loss of Pakistani funds.


Especially to upgrade the F-22P SAM capacity from 8 FM-90 of 15 km range to 32 ESSM with a range out to 50 km; Couple that with an upgrade of the radar to a Smart S Mk. 2. The real issue remains political with western upgrades on Chinese vessels, when the Chinese are more than capable of manufacturing similar missiles, and giving over the AAW capability for the ship to Americans could be risky if relations sour again.



Hence the PAF should commit to getting One Squadron of the J-10CE TODAY. It will show the US (and PAF's own fence sitting officers) the PAF is deadly serious. Once the PAF gets the ball rolling on inducting a new type it will make it a lot easier for the PAF to shift away from the F-16 and towards the J-10CE if the US doesn't supply needs spares or upgrades or weapons in the future. With out proper support and an upgrade, in a few years the F-16 Block 52 will be third string to the J-10CE and the JF-17 Block III.

@$60 million; a squadron of 18 Fighters would be give or take $1 Billion. (there will be hundreds of millions more spend to induct a new type) Once the PAF is busy training on the J-10CE, the US will visibly see the PAF slipping out of their hands, the best pilots and mostly likely to be promoted to highest ranks will go to the J-10 Squadron.

Do this across the other two branches, with Attack helicopters for the Army and C4ISR equipment or ships for the Navy, and the cadres of future high ranking officers will no longer be going to the the US.

This is the consequence of the US not supporting the Pakistani Military with modern equipment. BTW the saga of the F-16 Radars is not new, it was the same in the 80s, with the US initially refusing to sell the look down shoot down radars, until they realized PAF would only accept the jets with the radars or not at all. It was very well demonstrated in the movie; Charlie Wilson's war.

0:32-0:37

3:50-4:22

BTW the SABR Radar; the one in the Block 70/72 is itself not as good as the AN/APG-80 on the Block 60, The AN/APG-80 is the same radar offered to the Indians for the F-16IN. So if the US is serious about a strategic relation with Pakistan, it needs to be get real and at the very least AESA radar it has already approved to so many nations. Or sell Used F-16 C/Ds and let Pakistan buy Turkish F-16 AESA radars, and protect the SABR's "secret sauce".

To paraphrase the clip above; IF this was a real war, the US would take into account Pakistan's need and find a middle ground approach.



New F-16s are not it unless they are fully equipped (including AESA) birds, otherwise CSF funds should just go to buying 50-60 if not more F-16 C/D with the least hours on their air frames and Thousands of Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X. This way we fill some of the numbers gap we have at the least cost; and speed up the retirement of the oldest F-7s and Mirages.

We can spend our own money on AESA birds like the J-10CE.

Ive heard Rumors the block 3 JF-17s will have AESA radars. Does this mean the new jf-17s will have better radar than our F16s?

 

[Code_Geass]

Ive heard Rumors the block 3 JF-17s will have AESA radars. Does this mean the new jf-17s will have better radar than our F16s?

yeah, it should be.

 

[MIG21DOWN]

I think Pakistan is taking a wait-and-see approach towards CAATSA, both in terms with how it is applied against Turkey and India, if at all, and then making its own choices. If there are no significant sanctions against either country, then it opens to door for us to purchase Su-35s from Russia, esp if Block 70s are a no-go.

Forgive me for my ignorance but arent SU-35s more like Strike air crafts? So if they are bought they will be to replace Mirages rather than F16s as they serve a different purpose? Im not too knowledgable in aircraft so please let me know.

 

[Code_Geass]

Forgive me for my ignorance but arent SU-35s more like Strike air crafts? So if they are bought they will be to replace Mirages rather than F16s as they serve a different purpose? Im not too knowledgable in aircraft so please let me know.

i think currently we are looking A/C to replace our aging mirage fleet F-16 can go later.

 

[MIG21DOWN]

i think currently we are looking A/C to replace our aging mirage fleet F-16 can go later.

Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.

 

[Code_Geass]

Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.

that's is what i don't know, may be we should get A/C from China instead of Russia directly.

 

[Shabi1]

I watched a interview of AVM Shahid Latif on how PAF managed to evaluate Rafale and Grippen sub systems while deciding on capability road map for the JF-17.

PAF indicated itself as a potential client and the manufacturers gave them access and rides. So the member sources claiming XYZ possible evaluations could be right.

Although I believe PAF will eventually upgrade its F-16s to with AESA either Turkish or US route (eventually expect PAF to keep using F-16s just like the it did with Mirages) but suspect with regards to SU-35 and F-16 Block-70 PAF is again just window shopping as always. If we do place a order for any non Chinese jet now for any new jet will take several years to manufacture and if war occurs, internationally there could be a arms embargo on both India and Pakistan. A J-11D with Russian blessings would have been feasible but its a far fetched wish.

Nevertheless procurement secrecy for our armed forces is so high I doubt anyone will have any confirmation till actual deal is signed. No one expected we would be able to get Block-52s or MLUs for the existing fleet either.

For now the only fighter PAF is confirmed to get is the JF-17 Block-3.

Wouldnt su-35 be overkill for Pakistan since we dont have the distance required for twin engined jets? And i heard the cost of maintaining Sukhois are insane so idk how we can afford it.

SU-35 is a multirole platform. In air superiority it can loiter longer and carry more payload so it can come in handy for a BVR barrage attack in air superiority role. This tactic was expected of InAF SU-30MKIs as well but PAF achieved first shot capability. Russian jets are usually maintenance intensive but compared to previous Flanker series jets SU-35 is claimed to have western level maintenance intervals.
However from what we have been hearing Chinese have better radar and missile options.

 

[loanranger]

Best to get 3-4 dozen air frames now using CSF funds (if not with CSF funds then don't do it and just go for the J-10CE with AESA), and if they pan out in terms of a future upgrade great, but if they don't then no loss of Pakistani funds.


Especially to upgrade the F-22P SAM capacity from 8 FM-90 of 15 km range to 32 ESSM with a range out to 50 km; Couple that with an upgrade of the radar to a Smart S Mk. 2. The real issue remains political with western upgrades on Chinese vessels, when the Chinese are more than capable of manufacturing similar missiles, and giving over the AAW capability for the ship to Americans could be risky if relations sour again.



Hence the PAF should commit to getting One Squadron of the J-10CE TODAY. It will show the US (and PAF's own fence sitting officers) the PAF is deadly serious. Once the PAF gets the ball rolling on inducting a new type it will make it a lot easier for the PAF to shift away from the F-16 and towards the J-10CE if the US doesn't supply needs spares or upgrades or weapons in the future. With out proper support and an upgrade, in a few years the F-16 Block 52 will be third string to the J-10CE and the JF-17 Block III.

@$60 million; a squadron of 18 Fighters would be give or take $1 Billion. (there will be hundreds of millions more spend to induct a new type) Once the PAF is busy training on the J-10CE, the US will visibly see the PAF slipping out of their hands, the best pilots and mostly likely to be promoted to highest ranks will go to the J-10 Squadron.

Do this across the other two branches, with Attack helicopters for the Army and C4ISR equipment or ships for the Navy, and the cadres of future high ranking officers will no longer be going to the the US.

This is the consequence of the US not supporting the Pakistani Military with modern equipment. BTW the saga of the F-16 Radars is not new, it was the same in the 80s, with the US initially refusing to sell the look down shoot down radars, until they realized PAF would only accept the jets with the radars or not at all. It was very well demonstrated in the movie; Charlie Wilson's war.

0:32-0:37

3:50-4:22

BTW the SABR Radar; the one in the Block 70/72 is itself not as good as the AN/APG-80 on the Block 60, The AN/APG-80 is the same radar offered to the Indians for the F-16IN. So if the US is serious about a strategic relation with Pakistan, it needs to be get real and at the very least AESA radar it has already approved to so many nations. Or sell Used F-16 C/Ds and let Pakistan buy Turkish F-16 AESA radars, and protect the SABR's "secret sauce".

To paraphrase the clip above; IF this was a real war, the US would take into account Pakistan's need and find a middle ground approach.



New F-16s are not it unless they are fully equipped (including AESA) birds, otherwise CSF funds should just go to buying 50-60 if not more F-16 C/D with the least hours on their air frames and Thousands of Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X. This way we fill some of the numbers gap we have at the least cost; and speed up the retirement of the oldest F-7s and Mirages.

We can spend our own money on AESA birds like the J-10CE.

Those videos really put in context what you were trying to explain! Its true if the Americans are picky about the radars on our new f 16s it means they are not serious about Afghanistan. I read somewhere on pdf that the f16 deal was hiting some snags due to type of radar ! Get those mint f16 C/D and AIM 9X and C5 in large numbers.

I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof

They should release the proof if it gets us f16s. Donot if its just a ego booster and "daikhain gai deal"

 

[denel]

All 4 are VLS LY-80 equipped. MILGEM has been Re designated as Jinnah Class In PN. If US approval for PDMS isn’t approved you’ll be seeing Korkut-N being placed as instead. Moreover the SSM on the Jinnah Class vessels will be its most powerful element.


Umkonto was seriously considered Adm Zaka was given a detailed briefing in SA on the system as well whilst the MILGEM program systems were being finalized. Umkonto couldn’t make it to the final cut due to :
1. The system was not operational with any allied navy/military, No prior experience with SA w.r.t military Eqt, Due to cost prohibition PN was apprehensive about the riskier route of inducting a unique system from a new vendor.
2. Time. PN has already faced a certain time delay in certain projects by opting for new,unique systems. Prior experience and urgent requirements compelled PN to go for RIM-116 and a back up plan provided by Turks of Korkut-N. Chinese FL-3000N system was also considered but dropped due to certain issues with the system during trials.

That is odd and again i find excuses by Pak institutions for SA equipment; Umkonto was operational both in SA and Finnish navies for a long time. Now with Algeria.

 

[Trailer23]

Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30.

Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

I don't know what answer they gave but what I know is USA and Lock Head Martin wants Pakistan to release proof

I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about 'proof' of shooting down a Russian bird.

Why?

If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.

Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the End User Agreement and had sent personnel from Lockheed Martin to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.

Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
c. We get what we want (F-16's).

I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.

 

[Zarvan]

I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about 'proof' of shooting down a Russian bird.

Why?

If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.

Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the End User Agreement and had sent personnel from Lockheed Martin to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.

Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
c. We get what we want (F-16's).

I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.

My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof

 

[denel]

I'm having a hard time trying to understand the narrative about 'proof' of shooting down a Russian bird.

Why?

If memory serves, after the events of 27th February - when India went running to the United States about the usage of F-16's, our own DG ISPR had stated that NO F-16 were used in The Mission/Strikes. Clearly that was a deception from our side as we didn't actually speak about what was used in defense once the IAF Jets entered PAK Air Space.

Nonetheless, the US was curious/furious that we may have broken the End User Agreement and had sent personnel from Lockheed Martin to investigate. I'm sure they didn't just count the number of F-16 in our inventory. It may be a bit hard to conceal evidence on these birds.

Finally, if the US is asking for evidence..., then whats the harm? Do they plan on making it Public to piss off their advisory (Russia) and prove to the World that US Equipment is superior to Russian.
a. It'll prove we shot down IAF's Mighty Su-30MKi (-courtesy of the Govt. of the U.S.of A).
b. India will be pissed off - and end up giving their Su-Pilots medals for bravery.
c. We get what we want (F-16's).

I don't know..., it all seems far fetched that the fate of our possible/future jets lay in the hands of some proof that we have.

no think of the counter narrative; this means they may opt to get F16s as their second tier aircraft as well.

 

[Quwa]

That is odd and again i find excuses by Pak institutions for SA equipment; Umkonto was operational both in SA and Finnish navies for a long time. Now with Algeria.

The issue was most likely re: the extended range Umkhonto EIR. That was still in late development by the time the Jinnah class was frozen, esp. as the Chinese are offering a 70 km range version of the LY-80. The way forward with SA is joint devpt for next gen tech.

 

[Trailer23]

My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof

So, they don't want to see the proof for themselves - but want us to release the proof from our end.

I'm not sure what their game is and what they hope to achieve by making us do just that.

The only thing that comes to mind is (if) Pakistan was to release proof of the Su-30MKi, it would keep us away from a possible Russian camp.

 

[The Eagle]

My statement is very clear and also directly indicated why US wants us to release proof of SU-30 being shot down. If it was JF-17 which would have shot it down US won't be asking us to release proof

Bhai, if they are selling us Block-70 F-16 then that is connected only with Afghanistan Peace talks and not to the release of MKI proof by PAF. However, your suggestion as above seems like that if US is asking us to release such proof, the only goal is to humiliate IAF procurement plans from Russia & make them to choose F-16 aka F-21. By the same demand of release of so & so proof, US may achieve three main goals;

• Pakistan - Russia growing relation be damaged & create further vacuum, that we have concealed the proof because had a meeting with Russians on totally different level.

• Infuriate our Chinese Friends that played a major role to build our relations with Moscow as well as bringing some beneficial offers on the table, that serves the US purpose once again. Don't forget how IK & Putin had the talks throughout the tour.

• Force India through such humiliation for procurement of US Birds.

In my opinion, if the offer is in lieu of release of any proof at this time; let's call spade a spade and forget the Vipers. So, if there is an offer by US, that will only materialize on the basis of our assistance in Afghan Peace Talks.