PAF F16-Blk70 possibly coming - TO BE CONFIRMED

[Avicenna]

It'd be interesting to learn how the MiG-35 fared, and why it was cut.

There was potential engine commonality with the JF-17 (albeit if one day the JF-17 switches to the RD-33MK), lower cost, and more Russian openness towards customizing the jet with third-party systems (e.g., the original MiG-35 proposal relied on Italian EW/ECM and a French HMD/S).

I'm guessing the capability gap between the MiG-35 and the JF-17 Block-III wasn't far enough to justify the price difference, or the MiG-35 didn't have the range and payload the PAF was looking for in a dual-engine.


To be fair, this takes me back in 2003-2004. On the old PDF we were hearing about M2K-5, used F-16s, J-10As, and Su-30s until, all of a sudden, Bush Jr. says the US will start selling F-16s to Pakistan again.

I remember those days quite well.

People have short memories.

The political power dynamics as well as hardware options for the PAF have changed in the world since that time, however.

Chinese improvements have been a miracle for Pakistan.

I don’t even wanna think about a scenario where FC-1/JF-17 failed or the Russians didn’t release the RD-93 in that era.

Fortunately if nothing else, China provides a better option in 2019 than 2004.

Still the -V upgrade path obviously provides most bang for the buck.

But I am extremely weary of US motivations to aid Pakistan’s military capabilities vis a vis Pakistan/India.

Especially in light of conspiracy theory-ish Israeli plans.

Before choosing a type if any, I hope Pakistani leadership keeps the long term political implications in mind.

(Including potential scenarios of vulnerability due to external reliance) i.e. sanctions. i.e. a vast majority of a PAF fleet degraded if the US chooses.

 

[WebMaster]

Imran Khan was not just at PAF to have some good past time. He went there to give approval of few projects including procurement of some Jets I don't know which ones. Pakistan is desperate. We need to answer Rafael. Also in my opinion the moment we order SU-35 if we do order those, we would get lot of pressure from USA to buy at least one squadron of BLOCK 60 or 72. Also what I am hearing is USA want Pakistan to release proof of shooting down of SU-30.

@Sinnerman108 @Bratva @Path-Finder @Khafee

Marketing 101 ?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

if that sense i would like to say the only option left is J-10C forget EF-2000 (Extremely Expensive) Grippen Sweden is denying us, so what other option we have other then F-16 Block 72/V @ACE OF THE AIR


you don't give my question's answer sir

PAF is looking everywhere but what comes in is still anyone's guess. What is known is France can only give PAF Mirages as Rafale are too expensive. PAF needs a counter for Rafales which can be by air superiority fighters procurement. On the other hand PAF wants a dedicated deep strike platform.
In reality PAF can only go for more F-16's or EFT Trench 1 but the need for deep strike would remain.

There are two other options Play along with the Russians with Turkey ar Go along with China. With Turkey PAF may end up having SU-57 whereas with China SU-35 with Chinese or Western or Turkish goodies.

 

[Zarvan]

Marketing 101 ?

Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

ESSM with MK-29 launcher can reduce cost for PN as Ada may not have VLS space, even if it have VLS space then Mk-29 can allow more missiles on board ship.

The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:

During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​

I remember those days quite well.

People have short memories.

The political power dynamics as well as hardware options for the PAF have changed in the world since that time, however.

Chinese improvements have been a miracle for Pakistan.

I don’t even wanna think about a scenario where FC-1/JF-17 failed or the Russians didn’t release the RD-93 in that era.

Fortunately if nothing else, China provides a better option in 2019 than 2004.

Still the -V upgrade path obviously provides most bang for the buck.

But I am extremely weary of US motivations to aid Pakistan’s military capabilities vis a vis Pakistan/India.

Especially in light of conspiracy theory-ish Israeli plans.

Before choosing a type if any, I hope Pakistani leadership keeps the long term political implications in mind.

(Including potential scenarios of vulnerability due to external reliance) i.e. sanctions. i.e. a vast majority of a PAF fleet degraded if the US chooses.

tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm.

 

[NA71]

Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

that would be annoying for Russians ... we are talking with them somewhere ...it would jeopardize our deal

 

[Signalian]

Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

Wouldn't help if war starts, there is no Rafale in IAF service. How is supposed to take on PAF then ?
SU30 has already been shot down so the invincibility/superiority against PAF myth has been broken.

 

[Ultima Thule]

PAF is looking everywhere but what comes in is still anyone's guess. What is known is France can only give PAF Mirages as Rafale are too expensive. PAF needs a counter for Rafales which can be by air superiority fighters procurement. On the other hand PAF wants a dedicated deep strike platform.
In reality PAF can only go for more F-16's or EFT Trench 1 but the need for deep strike would remain.

There are two other options Play along with the Russians with Turkey ar Go along with China. With Turkey PAF may end up having SU-57 whereas with China SU-35 with Chinese or Western or Turkish goodies.

only western Military tech will be available in form F-16/ EF-2000 trench -1 will not fit PAF- bill, If consider EFT then we order long before Su-35 has no chance for Pakistan and most of them are multi role jets which means these can be used as Deep strike as situation allows

Main problem for EFT Trench-1 is basically a air superiority jet with limited/minimal air to ground capability (Stand off launch capability) J-10 or Mig-35 would be the best choices in my opinions @ACE OF THE AIR

 

[Tipu7]

Time will prove ONE of us right.

Thing is not that what is right or what is not.
Thing is, what should be disclosed on a public forums and what should not.
You initially leaked the news of 18-24 Blk72 and then of 36 Su35 on public forums, though as per AHQ these topics are not meant to be shared in social media.

Why so? Problems from SA side or US e.t.c

Chinese.

The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:

During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​

tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm.

On spot. Azm is still far away.

The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:

During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454

Although its getting off topic, but can you clarify one thing,
We are acquiring 4 Milgem Corvettes (one as we see in Turkish navy) or 4 Jinnah Frigates (with VLS) ?

 

[Avicenna]

The PN confirmed that the MILGEMs will get VLS:

During the conversation with the CNS Pakistan, the four ADA/MilGem (dubbed Jinnah Class by the PN) Class corvettes for Pakistan were also mentioned. Two of the ships will be constructed in Turkey while the remaining two will be built at the KS&EW Shipyard in Karachi. The CNS Pakistan Admiral ABBASI noted that as their ships will be equipped with Medium-Range Air Defence Missile System (LY-80/HHQ-16) launched from a Vertical Launching System (VLS, with 16 cells) installed behind the main deck gun, a modified version of the Combat Management System (based on GENESIS) will be integrated to the vessels.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...cise-pakistan-turkey-defence-cooperation-3454​

tbh I'd rather go in-house (double down on JF-17, focus on Azm). However, I suspect buying an off-the-shelf platform from one of China or Russia probably has a little to do with getting critical tech support for Azm.

There are a few reasons for/advantages of introducing an off the shelf buy now however.

First, Block 3 seems to be taking a bit longer than expected.

Secondly if war comes in the next 5 years it may be advantageous to have two pathways to new airframes (Block 3 and the 4.5 gen off the shelf simultaneously) which speeds up modernization

Third, the inherent new capabilities the off the shelf brings depending on what type is chosen.

And of course what you mentioned about getting critical tech support for Azm.

Of course money is a factor.

But the guys next door may force Pakistan’s hand.

Given the political situation, it may be wise to prepare for the worst as quickly as possible.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Although its getting off topic, but can you clarify one thing,
We are acquiring 4 Milgem Corvettes (one as we see in Turkish navy) or 4 Jinnah Frigates (with VLS) ?

So, it's unclear. The bare minimum is 3 ASW corvettes (similar to those with the Turkish Navy) and 1 VLS-equipped Jinnah-class frigate. However, based on the link I shared above, it now seems all 4 will be Jinnah-class frigates (?).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There are a few reasons for/advantages of introducing an off the shelf buy now however.

First, Block 3 seems to be taking a bit longer than expected.

Secondly if war comes in the next 5 years it may be advantageous to have two pathways to new airframes (Block 3 and the 4.5 gen off the shelf simultaneously) which speeds up modernization

Third, the inherent new capabilities the off the shelf brings depending on what type is chosen.

And of course what you mentioned about getting critical tech support for Azm.

Of course money is a factor.

But the guys next door may force Pakistan’s hand.

Given the political situation, it may be wise to prepare for the worst as quickly as possible.

I agree, but the thing that worries me (as @Ark_Angel highlighted), this can at best be a total off-the-shelf purchase. There's no margin (at least in the near-run) for customization, esp. for SOW/ALCMs (which I would think a bigger airframe would be sought for in the first place).

 

[The Eagle]

that might be true if it were a Russian instead of a bharati flying it

Speculation as such can lead to offers from both side by not releasing or by doing so.

 

[The Eagle]

Speculation may be ending on the 6th if that uplifting surprise turns out to be info about the downing of the bharati Sukhoi instead of a new weapons acquisition by Pakistan. anyways either one suits me fine

At-least, we shall not base our possible outcomes in regard to any bird on the proof or no proof of MKI downing. I agree that hopes are high for this Defence Day in view of 27th Feb beating of IAF. However, the argument that US offer us something only if we share proof of MKI & if Russia is offering something that we shouldn't share; is too weak to begin with. As far as talks or evaluation or even interests goes; US offer can be viewed under Afghanistan Peace Process & our assistance while on other hand, there been chatter about PAF interests into SU-35 way back then before 27th February. Then, there comes the possibility of evaluation & interest into another western platform as well.

There are interests in-fact and somehow, evaluation different platforms would have been done for our need to bridge the gap between generation of jets as well as to complement 4th Gen fleet at large.

 

[Khafee]

Yes, USA is very pleased by what we did on 27th and they know what were used. So they want Pakistan to release proof, we may see some on 6th September show. I am waiting for that show

Why dont you tell them the answer PAF gave to the Americans.