PAF could have downed more Indian planes in Pulwama crisis: ex-air chief

[TopGun786]

Read again, i said it is tactical victory for paf and pak and that is about it. Meanwhile India legalized its part of kashmir, and integrated in its constitution.

Victory or not, legalized or not, the Indian part of Kashmir was before under the occupation of India and is still under the occupation of India. I am a Kashmiri myself (working in UAE), living just 7 kilometers away from the LOC. And believe me, it does not make any difference what India did after 27 Feb. The question is whether Pakistan can take back what even at the first hand was not under its control. To be honest, there is no diplomatic solution for the Kashmir issue... there never will be ... It only needs a full-scale war in which either we (Pakistan) lose or win, and that's another debate.

 

[Trango Towers]

I remember disagreeing with @MastanKhan but with time i feel he was 100% correct.
This was a mistake by PAF leadership. They should have taken out every aircraft in their sights. India would not have escalated as the next act would have been standoff weapons against runways and India would have taken weeks to mobilise their ground forces. By then international pressure on both side would have been immense and especially on India for initiating the act of war. The sheer shock of having lost almost a squadron of aircraft on day 1 would have been felt for generations

It was a win win but what was lacking was decisive leadership with courage. India could have escalated on the 27th. The didn't because their knew

 

[TheSolution]

I remember disagreeing with @MastanKhan but with time i feel he was 100% correct.
This was a mistake by PAF leadership. They should have taken out every aircraft in their sights. India would not have escalated as the next act would have been standoff weapons against runways and India would have taken weeks to mobilise their ground forces. By then international pressure on both side would have been immense and especially on India for initiating the act of war. The sheer shock of having lost almost a squadron of aircraft on day 1 would have been felt for generations

It was a win win but what was lacking was decisive leadership with courage. India could have escalated on the 27th. The didn't because their knew

You might actually raise some very fair points tbh

They probably would've massed troops at the border after a while, low-level shelling, then the international community like USA/China calms both sides down

 

[El Sidd]

I remember disagreeing with @MastanKhan but with time i feel he was 100% correct.
This was a mistake by PAF leadership. They should have taken out every aircraft in their sights. India would not have escalated as the next act would have been standoff weapons against runways and India would have taken weeks to mobilise their ground forces. By then international pressure on both side would have been immense and especially on India for initiating the act of war. The sheer shock of having lost almost a squadron of aircraft on day 1 would have been felt for generations

It was a win win but what was lacking was decisive leadership with courage. India could have escalated on the 27th. The didn't because their knew

The government of the time placed a ban on discussing Pakistan's response to the matter. Even forums like this had people thread banned for life for putting out basic questions on 27 Feb, Brahmos and August 05 2019 Kashmir annexation.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

China and Iran will not come near you in the event of war; you can ask any senior here. Turkey..I don't know whether it would like to get directly involved in a conflict.

A nation must depend on itself for war. War is always fought by a nation on its own shoulders.
If time time come, we will prove it .You should think about yourself.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Victory or not, legalized or not, the Indian part of Kashmir was before under the occupation of India and is still under the occupation of India. I am a Kashmiri myself (working in UAE), living just 7 kilometers away from the LOC. And believe me, it does not make any difference what India did after 27 Feb. The question is whether Pakistan can take back what even at the first hand was not under its control. To be honest, there is no diplomatic solution for the Kashmir issue... there never will be ... It only needs a full-scale war in which either we (Pakistan) lose or win, and that's another debate.

Loc is defacto border till pak has nukes. Rest is waste of time and resources.

 

[Abid123]

Defeatist attitude like yours obviously will not get anything done. There is opportunity to make them pay and forced them to use nuke (they won’t and im 100% certain of that). They’ve turned Pakistan cities into wartime while the sleazy cowards talk about 100 year peace. I’m not trolling.

Turn the heat up on in IOK which will forced them to pay attention to us and take their eyes off China. The US doesn’t want that at all cause it will undermine the greater strategy of encircling China. At that point you negotiate favorable terms to lower the heat. Nerves of steel is needed for this policy. If the Indians want war, which they are itching for regardless, then go to war we must.

Additionally, the Indians will never fight China. Theyre getting all these weapons from the west by claiming it’s for China, but sooner or later will use it against Pakistan. Hell, they’re already talking about capturing Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Hezbollah defeated IDF with Iman, tactics, and a sound strategy while the PAF air chief at the time (another sleazy bastards mocked the Lebanese for crying about their cities getting bombed).

Let me start of by saying I appreciate your patriotism, but the reality is that Pakistan can not fight India on "equal terms".

Operation Swift Retort was a benefitting reply to the Indians. They are still butthurt over it so many years later. What does that tell you?

Iran which is a regional power pounded a US base with ballistic missiles. While no soldiers were killed around 110 soldiers had to be treated for traumatic Brain injury. How do you think the US which is a superpower felt about its base getting attacked by Iran which is at best a regional power like the Saudis and Turks? And the US did not do a jack shit about it, due to not wanting to escalate to all-out war.

But you are expecting Pakistan which has a weaker conventional military, far smaller economy, far smaller manpower and Industrial base than India to unleash "The gates of hell". Lol...

 

[Olympus81]

So did PAF actually down a Su-30MKI.

Any members would like to shed light on this with reliable sources?

@SQ8 @PanzerKiel

 

[SQ8]

So did PAF actually down a Su-30MKI.

Any members would like to shed light on this with reliable sources?

@SQ8 @PanzerKiel

Most reliable sources including those in the air that day based on what they are allowed to publicly say claim a kill. Non PAF sources familiar with the operation confirm a kill. Early accounts from eyewitnesses, including Indian TV sources along with the oddly coincidental death of Indian MKI pilots in a “road accident” further reinforces this claim. Lastly, the dispatch of a Mi-17 right after the Mki claim was made and its subsequent demise by fratricide lend more credence to the Pakistani account.

Indians claim the MKi dodged several Amraams however, Pakistan’s F-16 fleet and its stock of American weapons is regularly audited by US embassy to keep checks and prevent any missing items or access by the Chinese regardless of PAF assurances. A record of the AMRAAMs is coordinated with US incl OEM in Raytheon so these aren’t things people cannot source for verification. Then, several AMRAAMs would mean multiple missile wreckage or otherwise much like the one held up during that misconceived press conference done by India post this event - they only presented a single piece.

Finally, muted messaging by Lockheed Martin in its pitches of the block 70 to Bahrain and other countries have referenced this kill so while in my view it remains a claim since there is no picture of wreckage to back this up - stronger evidence is that if nothing else there was a proximity detonation versus a missile just crashing into the ground.

However, that does not change the status of the MKI claim to a confirmed kill regardless of what the PAF has publicly tried to show for most neutral observers.

 

[Fasbre2]

If that is the case isn't a failure of combined operations, would this not create chaotic situation like the 65 where the army and airforce are doing their thing, or like there is noaccountability for chief, do whatever u want and nobody gives a damn, i thought we had passed that era, but here we are stuck in that same loop.

Hence the reason to get rid of the idiotic situation where CJCSC is a symbolic role as opposed to a role with overall accountability and responsibility. The COAS should not have more power or authority than the CJCSC, who should be able to sack any services head for professional misconduct or incompetence…

 

[Hamza913]

PAF could have downed more Indian planes in Pulwama crisis: ex-air chief​

By Our Correspondent
January 16, 2023



LAHORE: Former Air Chief Marshall Sohail Aman Sunday said Pakistan could have taught India even a bigger lesson during the Pulwama crisis but it displayed restraint as an escalation of the tension was not an objective.

He was delivering a lecture at the Nazriya Pakistan Trust which was the first of a series of “Quaid e Azam Leadership Lectures” launched by the trust devoted to promoting the vision and philosophy of the founding fathers of the nation. Sohail Aman spoke of passion and determination as key elements of leadership and added that the Quaid-e-Azam proved through creation of Pakistan that “nothing is impossible”. He said Pakistan’s superior strategy and decisive leadership had humbled India during the ‘post-Pulwama crisis’ in February 2019, when “we had eight Indian aircraft within our range, with electronic warfare tracking their every move and we could have taught them a bigger lesson, but we didn’t want to escalate.”

Terming ex-ACM Sohail Aman an authentic Pakistani hero, Senator Mushahid Hussain, Vice Chairman of Nazriya Pakistan Trust (NPT), said the Quaid-e-Azam through his leadership based on character, courage and commitment had set a unique example which inspired Muslims and led to the struggle which created Pakistan. “Thanks to the Quaid-e-Azam and the founding fathers, we are today living as free citizens of a free country,” Mushahid Hussain said, underlining that the nation must honour its heroes who are role models for the people of Pakistan. He said the people of Pakistan had guts and the spirit but they were let down by a weak leadership.

He lauded Sohail Aman for building a modern fighting force in the form of the Pakistan Air Force, which gave a befitting reply to Indian aggression in Balakot in February 2019, which was Pakistan’s finest hour, along with the nuclear tests in May 1998.

Presiding over the meeting, NPT Senior Vice Chairman Mian Farooq Altaf talked about various attributes of the Quaid-e-Azam’s leadership, his impeccable integrity and honesty, and uncompromising stand on Pakistan, adding, “the Quaid gave all his property to educational institutions and his family derived no benefit from the creation of Pakistan.” Conversely, today he warned against “worshipping power and money”, as character is more important than these worldly material possessions. Other speakers said Quaid’s leadership based on character, courage and commitment is the key to Pakistan’s turnaround in the future.

PAF could have downed more Indian planes in Pulwama crisis: ex-air chief

LAHORE: Former Air Chief Marshall Sohail Aman Sunday said Pakistan could have taught India even a bigger lesson during the Pulwama crisis but it displayed restraint as an escalation of the tension...

www.thenews.com.pk

"Muh restraint"

Could have would have should have been the same story forever now, and now we have them dropping their pants live on TV saying that they "learnt their lesson" from their wars with India

A failure to jawans everywhere, command is only good at killing its own citizens and then surrendering afterwards

 

[GuySajerGD1943]

Victory or not, legalized or not, the Indian part of Kashmir was before under the occupation of India and is still under the occupation of India. I am a Kashmiri myself (working in UAE), living just 7 kilometers away from the LOC. And believe me, it does not make any difference what India did after 27 Feb. The question is whether Pakistan can take back what even at the first hand was not under its control. To be honest, there is no diplomatic solution for the Kashmir issue... there never will be ... It only needs a full-scale war in which either we (Pakistan) lose or win, and that's another debate.

Amen - wars are won by the more committed side. They’re more committed hence all the talk about capturing AK and GB; while the whole spectrum of Pakistan in a true cowardly and sleazy fashion wants to sweep things under the rug and pretend the pagans will okay with the status quo. It’s deeper than that. They have pure unadulterated hatred towards Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan.
The whole concept of “Ghar Wapis” is aimed at Muslims. It serves a very sinister purpose - to hinduinize India and the rest of SA in order to increase the numbers of eligible women. You see, due to female fraticide, the Indians have more men than women. They need to offset the number - hence the above.
Why do you think rape is such a massive problems in their society. Same reason why they got rid of the triple talaq, and pretty soon limited the amount of wives a Muslim man can have. You guys are sleeping on the danger from the east. Because of some of your beghairety in bending over to the goras, you’re opening yourselves to subjugation.

I remember disagreeing with @MastanKhan but with time i feel he was 100% correct.
This was a mistake by PAF leadership. They should have taken out every aircraft in their sights. India would not have escalated as the next act would have been standoff weapons against runways and India would have taken weeks to mobilise their ground forces. By then international pressure on both side would have been immense and especially on India for initiating the act of war. The sheer shock of having lost almost a squadron of aircraft on day 1 would have been felt for generations

It was a win win but what was lacking was decisive leadership with courage. India could have escalated on the 27th. The didn't because their knew

he’s a very intelligent poster.

Let me start of by saying I appreciate your patriotism, but the reality is that Pakistan can not fight India on "equal terms".

Operation Swift Retort was a benefitting reply to the Indians. They are still butthurt over it so many years later. What does that tell you?

Iran which is a regional power pounded a US base with ballistic missiles. While no soldiers were killed around 110 soldiers had to be treated for traumatic Brain injury. How do you think the US which is a superpower felt about its base getting attacked by Iran which is at best a regional power like the Saudis and Turks? And the US did not do a jack shit about it, due to not wanting to escalate to all-out war.

But you are expecting Pakistan which has a weaker conventional military, far smaller economy, far smaller manpower and Industrial base than India to unleash "The gates of hell". Lol...

Yes, burn down their cities. I’m advocating exactly that. No difference than what they’ve been doing to Pakistan for the past 20 years. When all that foreign investment starts fleeing their lands, then we’ll see how much of a war they can sustain.



Let me start of by saying I appreciate your patriotism, but the reality is that Pakistan can not fight India on "equal terms".

Operation Swift Retort was a benefitting reply to the Indians. They are still butthurt over it so many years later. What does that tell you?

Iran which is a regional power pounded a US base with ballistic missiles. While no soldiers were killed around 110 soldiers had to be treated for traumatic Brain injury. How do you think the US which is a superpower felt about its base getting attacked by Iran which is at best a regional power like the Saudis and Turks? And the US did not do a jack shit about it, due to not wanting to escalate to all-out war.

But you are expecting Pakistan which has a weaker conventional military, far smaller economy, far smaller manpower and Industrial base than India to unleash "The gates of hell". Lol...

Thank you for your condescending and patronizing tone.

The fact that you used the term “befitting” albeit misspelled tells me what I need to know about your strategy.

Fight them there so you won’t have to fight them in Lahore Islamabad Karachi Skardu.

Nothing says we’re afraid to escalate like oh hey, we could’ve done x y z on 2/27/19 but chose to deescalate. I’ve advocated bombing their barracks and parts of their precious fence they built in IOK to stop movement of mujahideens.

I knew American SOF serving with the UN observer force on the LOC during the 90s and they have ample stories on how Indian soldiers used to flee their posts just by hearing that the “Afghans” were operating in their AOR. Veterans of the war against the Soviet found a new battlefield. I don’t expect anything out of the worthless force Pakistan calls its army. They are mafioso organization only good at following orders from their foreign masters. I mean the fact that they carry that f***ken pimp stick around should you about their mindset. They are not build for war, but corruption. I seen their DHAs in ISB firsthand and how morally corrupt these whiskey drinking bastards are. Where’s the past 4-5 COAS residing? That should open many more eyes.

 

[GuySajerGD1943]

"Muh restraint"

Could have would have should have been the same story forever now, and now we have them dropping their pants live on TV saying that they "learnt their lesson" from their wars with India

A failure to jawans everywhere, command is only good at killing its own citizens and then surrendering afterwards

You’re talking to apes who only know mentally slavery.

I went on a twitter space for the PSF some defense think tank and advocated the same burn their cities down policies and called them out for saying that you could’ve shot down 9 of their planes but chose not to after they tried to murder children in a madrasah. The folks running the PSF consortium twitter space couldn’t care less about that than about keeping peace. The fact that an enemy just try to murder innocent children and had they been successful, it would’ve been claimed there were indeed “terrorists” at that school.

Additionally, this coward and sleazy colonial force we call our army, they didn’t response when the Chinese engineers were killed in that bus bombed attack, they didn’t lift a finger when Karachi stock exchange was attacked, they kept quiet when Mian Channa occurred. I have no hope that they will defend Pakistan. Hell these MINOs bastards will likely side with their coward pagan cousins and kill and rape Muslims in Pakistan to defend their interests. Same as occurred in Algeria and Egypt.

 

[undercover JIX]

Leaked Info Exposes How Indian Pilots Were Too Scared to Fly on 27 February 2019

Indian Air Force’s (IAF) Squadron No. 51 refused to get airborne to take action against the retrieving Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft during the

propakistani.pk

 

[AZMwi]

According to an interview of Radar guys, they had 9 indian jets locked on, but clearance was not given by high command.
Only one SU-30MKI was shot as it came too near to the attack team going for the ground bombing.
Then poor Nandu flew in blinded by signal jamming and didn't know where he was and what hit him.

I agree with ex air chief. We should have downed more indian a/c's. It's about time we grow some pair of balls and stop getting intimidated by the cow piss drinkers. There is a very thin line between cowardice (بیغرتی) and peace. And we have crossed that line long time ago.