PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

No---the main point here is that till yesterday---the iaf ruled the skies---today paf has that strike capabilities---. Till yesterday---the SU30 ruled the skies without impunity with its russian bvrs---today---it is nothing out of the ordinary---it is still a great aircraft indeed----but its fangs are not as effective any more---.

There will be no daring flights over pakistan any more by the iaf---the paf pilots have been training with bvr's for a long time now---. Flight simulators have indeed sort of balanced the playing field----but the other than that has levelled the field is the kill ratio of of th eaim120 over longer distances than its russian counter part---.

Now, I do understand that the rafale is coming in the future---we will talk about it when it gets operational---but for the moment, paf has regained some of its lost momentum.

Thanks Mastan bhai for patiently explaining why comparing PAF of the late 90s with the current one is a plain stupid.
It appears that most members have taken that fact on board but some still continue to lose the plot and keep on repeating the number of their fighters and what they will have in the future vs. what PAF was back in the 90s.
There is definitely a limit to jingoism and if that doesn’t help they would post US drone attacks and the slala post clearly suggesting that intent is just argument for the sake of argument.
I know it’s a futile attempt but once again I will clarify to Indian fanboys that the huge number of IAF combat aircrafts and awesomeness of your MKIs is not the point of discussion here. PAF chief says that we can counter whatever IAF has in its mind. Feel free to reject it if that helps you, if you still not convinced after 200 posts, despite the clarifications by both Indian & Pakistani members then nothing will.

 

[soul hacker]

guys have a look :-An analysis on PAF(pakistan airforce) and IAF (indian airforce) in the light of history,pilot training,technology,numbers and upgrades.

hope you guys got your answer

 

[rockstarIN]

Well.. yes.. and not necessarily these days.
For eg.. in the earlier days you would preferably try to reach at the same level to ensure optimum conditions for the missile shots.
And being at 45k is not an advantage for lets say CAP's or sweeps.
But it can be a great advantage when trying to hit High value targets such as AWACS or refuellers.
Since at 45k there may still be some low flying targets that will evade your scan and slip through the net.
But at 45 k you may also zoom over any existing CAP's around HVAA's.

For a strike package with escorts, say...with Awacs data link to avoid the opponent's CAP surprises.

Isn't it easy for the higher altitude escorts to fire BVRs at the approaching CAPs in full speed. It will save the energy of the missile for the endgame tail chase provided the boost phase is at higher altitude.

 

[Pfpilot]

Too many members from both sides are suffering from the "if everything breaks right" syndrome, proclaiming capabilities of their respective forces in the perfect circumstances, where the adversary is essentially brain dead.
If we are to discuss this rationally, then there is no reason to doubt these claims. It is outrageous to assume the influx of new f-16s don't multiply the PAF capability manifold. As Irfan Baloch has tirelessly pointed out (I envy your patience), PAF can protect Pakistani airspace in a short conflict, long enough to allow for a diplomatic resolution. An assumption I make from past Indo-Pak conflicts where fighting is fierce, but short. As Pakistanis, we must accept that at no point, in the foreseeable future, will we have comparable firepower to the Indians and the longer the conflict, the more convincing becomes our defeat. But as far as the PAF is concerned, it should be able to protect Pakistanis skies for just long enough. In no way does that dilute the capabilities of the IAF as some defensive members are assuming, but it only gives due credit to a professional fighting force that has the requisite experience in fighting wars to at-least hold off the superior IAF firepower for a limited space of time.

 

[mughaljee]

soul hacker
may thanks for this nice sharing.

 

[IND151]

Thanks Mastan bhai for patiently explaining why comparing PAF of the late 90s with the current one is a plain stupid.
It appears that most members have taken that fact on board but some still continue to lose the plot and keep on repeating the number of their fighters and what they will have in the future vs. what PAF was back in the 90s.
There is definitely a limit to jingoism and if that doesn’t help they would post US drone attacks and the slala post clearly suggesting that intent is just argument for the sake of argument.
I know it’s a futile attempt but once again I will clarify to Indian fanboys that the huge number of IAF combat aircrafts and awesomeness of your MKIs is not the point of discussion here. PAF chief says that we can counter whatever IAF has in its mind. Feel free to reject it if that helps you, if you still not convinced after 200 posts, despite the clarifications by both Indian & Pakistani members then nothing will.

what do you think about post 220, sir?

 

[Hello_10]

Thanks Mastan bhai for patiently explaining why comparing PAF of the late 90s with the current one is a plain stupid.
It appears that most members have taken that fact on board but some still continue to lose the plot and keep on repeating the number of their fighters and what they will have in the future vs. what PAF was back in the 90s.
There is definitely a limit to jingoism and if that doesn’t help they would post US drone attacks and the slala post clearly suggesting that intent is just argument for the sake of argument.
I know it’s a futile attempt but once again I will clarify to Indian fanboys that the huge number of IAF combat aircrafts and awesomeness of your MKIs is not the point of discussion here. PAF chief says that we can counter whatever IAF has in its mind. Feel free to reject it if that helps you, if you still not convinced after 200 posts, despite the clarifications by both Indian & Pakistani members then nothing will.

I remember in 80s to 90s, when Indian high ranked professionals used to migrate to US then they used to argue that NASA, GE/ GM, MS etc help them gain better experience which they can’t gain while working with Indian companies. Similarly I find Pakistani Pilots are really good but they don’t have that capable aircrafts to perform, I think. Only ‘18’ F16 block52, an aircraft of the comparison of Mirage2000-5 mk2, while US would close production line of F16s by 2014 and at the same time France has now closed production line of Mirage2000-5 mk2 for Rafale? Pakistani Pilots would be given opportunity to practice on the 'next gen' aircrafts like Rafale, EFT, F15SE etc.

I think we would now imagine a 'South Asian Air Force' which would include both Indian and Pakistani Pilots. As its clear that new orders of Indian military, like Rafale/ aircraft career etc, aren’t for its South Asian neighbors, then why don’t we think to start with ‘Rafale F4’, say, 'a part' of IAF for whole South Asian region which would have Pakistani Pilots also? we may have a South Asian military, specially Air force+ Navy, I guess? I have read Indian pilots are also among the top performers same as Pakistani pilots…..........

Earlier, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF!

Are Indian Fighter Pilots better than US Fighter Pilots?

Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF’s brand-new Euro fighter Typhoon super fighters during air combat exercises in Turkey
http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com...phoons-pilots-beaten-by-paf-f-16viper-pilots/

 

[Masterio92]

How it is contradictory ? kindly explain.

The article says, the purpose of delivery of F16 was to divert a nuclear option from Pakistan while on the other hand US also aknowledge that F16s are not going to help Pakistan to deny Indian superiority over her skies. So the idea containing pretty much contradictory elements.

 

[SQ8]

For a strike package with escorts, say...with Awacs data link to avoid the opponent's CAP surprises.

Isn't it easy for the higher altitude escorts to fire BVRs at the approaching CAPs in full speed. It will save the energy of the missile for the endgame tail chase provided the boost phase is at higher altitude.

Again.. that would make sense except that approaching CAP's may not be too high either.. ambush tactics.. knowing a fighter sweep is inbound at that altitude.. forcing a merge with the strike package. Too many variables to predict any outcome.

 

[beggingwalker]

Too many members from both sides are suffering from the "if everything breaks right" syndrome, proclaiming capabilities of their respective forces in the perfect circumstances, where the adversary is essentially brain dead.
If we are to discuss this rationally, then there is no reason to doubt these claims. It is outrageous to assume the influx of new f-16s don't multiply the PAF capability manifold. As Irfan Baloch has tirelessly pointed out (I envy your patience), PAF can protect Pakistani airspace in a short conflict, long enough to allow for a diplomatic resolution. An assumption I make from past Indo-Pak conflicts where fighting is fierce, but short. As Pakistanis, we must accept that at no point, in the foreseeable future, will we have comparable firepower to the Indians and the longer the conflict, the more convincing becomes our defeat. But as far as the PAF is concerned, it should be able to protect Pakistanis skies for just long enough. In no way does that dilute the capabilities of the IAF as some defensive members are assuming, but it only gives due credit to a professional fighting force that has the requisite experience in fighting wars to at-least hold off the superior IAF firepower for a limited space of time.

but why fighting the war if its limited one??

 

[SQ8]

I have read Indian pilots are also among the top performers same as Pakistani pilots…..........

Both forces train much more for WVR engagements than other comparable arms. Which is why their ACM is among the best.
When it comes to being the best in technological integration, tactics.. that is disputable.

The Cope India example is a little off.. since the US forces were handicapped most of the time by the RoE.
They were infact used to simulate a PAF force..

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Too many members from both sides are suffering from the "if everything breaks right" syndrome, proclaiming capabilities of their respective forces in the perfect circumstances, where the adversary is essentially brain dead.
If we are to discuss this rationally, then there is no reason to doubt these claims. It is outrageous to assume the influx of new f-16s don't multiply the PAF capability manifold. As Irfan Baloch has tirelessly pointed out (I envy your patience), PAF can protect Pakistani airspace in a short conflict, long enough to allow for a diplomatic resolution. An assumption I make from past Indo-Pak conflicts where fighting is fierce, but short. As Pakistanis, we must accept that at no point, in the foreseeable future, will we have comparable firepower to the Indians and the longer the conflict, the more convincing becomes our defeat. But as far as the PAF is concerned, it should be able to protect Pakistanis skies for just long enough. In no way does that dilute the capabilities of the IAF as some defensive members are assuming, but it only gives due credit to a professional fighting force that has the requisite experience in fighting wars to at-least hold off the superior IAF firepower for a limited space of time.

that is the essence of it all
the question Indian members should ask themselves is how far IAF is willing to take it and how long?
why the need to launch the attack in the first place?

if PAF is able to blunt the attack then it has pretty much denied IAF from achieving its target, say surgical strikes for example.
its not a long Boxing match of Muhammad Ali where IAF is banking on its ability to be able to suffer higher number of losses than PAF and then after an "N" number of planes it will achieve its objective when PAF has nothing left to counter it.

The argument by some Indians about outlasting PAF is more like an endgame scenario and has every possibility of raising the bar up to MAD level. As if India decides to go all out to occupy Pakistan. Although this is one of the possibility that some Indian Think tank does consider (like our ZH's Ghazwai Hind) but in reality the military planners are not that rash. its about cost benifit analysis to what end IAF is willing to go by accepting the loss of say "N" number of planes (please use whatever number you think is right because I dont want to break the heart of a fanboy by quoting the number which might take the thread to yet another salvo of ranting and flaming).

the air conflict will be short and fierce indeed and will get other nations to jump in to defuse the conflict because of the sensitivity of the region and the fact that both are Nuclear.

therefore if IAF plans a limited war with specific target in mind say some surgical strikes then for that reason the argument of its X number of planes doesn't apply because for that PAF is pretty much prepared and able to counter such ambitions and that what the PAF chief said.

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

but why fighting the war if its limited one??

yup ask yourself and ask your IAF chief why he was talking about surgical strikes after Mumbai attacks?

and also ask yourself why spending billions on new weapons at all when it can all lead to MAD scenario?

what do you think about post 220, sir?

good point,

but Pakistan also has its own set of cruise Missiles. so nothing unique in this regard.

 

[beggingwalker]

yup ask yourself and ask your IAF chief why he was talking about surgical strikes after Mumbai attacks?

and also ask yourself why spending billions on new weapons at all when it can all lead to MAD scenario?

so what will be your reaction if we do same like mumbai??
we share border with china also with pakistan and big sea coast to defend and indian ocean as well
i think we should spend to achieve maximum in limited war like U.S airforce do.

 

[it'sok]

yup ask yourself and ask your IAF chief why he was talking about surgical strikes after Mumbai attacks?

and also ask yourself why spending billions on new weapons at all when it can all lead to MAD scenario?

i sure it has nothing to do with Pakistan.

 

[soul hacker]

soul hacker
may thanks for this nice sharing.

You're welcome