PAF can counter India’s new war doctrine, says air chief

[ejaz007]

A lot of discussion is centred around SU-30 although not the topic of the thread. I don't wish to say much since I am not an expert. Just two sources an Indian and a neutral one to share some info. hope it clears a lot.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

To all my Indian friends are you sure all your SU-30's are the mighty MKI?

Regards,

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Jee,

The question is if the J-10B comes with AESA, is it still an inferior aircraft to BLK 52?

Hi,

Quality will overcome quantity but at what price----. The russian Akula ( I believe ) was an extremely fast sub--very noisy at high speed---but it could out run the mark48 torpedo I believe which had a top speed of 35--40 knots---. It only became vulnerable when the british came out with their torpedo that could do 60+ knots---this was a smarter torpedo as well----so if you can compliment the aircraft with a better and a superior bvr than your opponent---you got a game on----.

The radar on the su is humongous as compared to the f16 or the jf17---at full power it will fry the nu-ts of the technician standing in front of it---.

You need to learn to 'fear the monster' first----then you will begin to look for better systems for your security.

Learn from india----why did they take the route they did---they feared someone---. That fear made them recognize their vulnerabilities---and they made ammends to correct those deficiencies.

Pakistanis have not learnt to fear the iaf yet----once they get smacked hard---( well for the country pakistan ) it would be too late---but for any similiar nation to india---that would be the wake up call.

 

[deckingraj]

Another "obsession never ends" story. What makes you folks think it will be hard for PAF to hold the IAF in its very backyard? When you present a point, it is plausible to elaborate on it otherwise stop shooting in the air. I asked a question few days ago, what is the advantage in terms of quality and technology that IAF enjoys as of today? What makes them so superior that they have reached invincibility according to Indian members?

I have no intentions of saying that PAF should be taken any lightly....My only point is that it would be difficult for them to counter IAF even in their backyard...Difficult doesn't mean it is not possible...Now if you are saying that IAF is going to be cake walk for PAF in her own backyard then probably the obsession syndrome applies to you as well....b/w when it comes to numbers we beat you hands down with similar if not superior specs Aircrafts...Now if countering this gap is not even difficult in your eyes then i am sorry we don't have much to discuss....

 

[soldierofallah]

Pakistan should’ve gone for the f-18 hornet which is more advanced n better in dogfights than the f-16.

 

[DARKY]

A lot of discussion is centred around SU-30 although not the topic of the thread. I don't wish to say much since I am not an expert. Just two sources an Indian and a neutral one to share some info. hope it clears a lot.

India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

To all my Indian friends are you sure all your SU-30's are the mighty MKI?

Regards,

My my good friend all the Su30s in Indian Inventory are MKI versions and the older Su30K which beat the @ss of F-15s and F-16s during cope-India's was sent to Russia where they Upgraded it and sold to Bulgaria.. or some east European country for 15million $$ per plane.

The Upgrade is being done for MKI version which would be made more lethal with 30 major upgrades which includes a new AESA radar and possibly a new engine, besides Brahmos and K-100 novator carrying capability... eventually all the MKI would be upgraded after the 1st 40 new ones are made in Russia and India.

 

[DARKY]

Pakistan should’ve gone for the f-18 hornet which is more advanced n better in dogfights than the f-16.

Sir

Although SH is more advanced in BVR and EW than a F-16 Version.. with more weapon carrying capability.. It is not as good a dog-fighter as compared with F-16s without CFTs... although It would stand a better Chance against a MKI with APG-79 and the combat would look more on even grounds... but again the persistence of your Airforce with single engine planes is also a big factor here..

 

[DARKY]

Another "obsession never ends" story. What makes you folks think it will be hard for PAF to hold the IAF in its very backyard? When you present a point, it is plausible to elaborate on it otherwise stop shooting in the air. I asked a question few days ago, what is the advantage in terms of quality and technology that IAF enjoys as of today? What makes them so superior that they have reached invincibility according to Indian members?

Sir

If you look into history of aerial warfare the country which have not been able to afford a High performance machine like a F-15E r a Su30MKI(take them as examples).. have invested in robust SAM capability... USAF is the most powerful AF what did the Soviets do against them... could they match them planes to planes and tech. to tech... No they build a robust network of Ground Radars and SAM systems... There would be a time in coming years that IAF would acquire 5th Gen. planes in bulk.. with PAF again left behind to do the catch up job... while they would still be struggling to come up with a proper answer against the later 4.5++ gen. planes acquired by IAF... where does that leave PAF against IAF doctrine be it whosoever... (Please don't talk here about miraculous economic recoveries and China Selling 50 5th gen. planes in soft loans or whatever).. lets be more realistic...

 

[DARKY]

wdidnt got your point that opposition force doesnt have good enough radar to pick up large RCS.
both thunders and f-16s can pick up su 30 mki at their maximal firing range..infact well beyond their max firing range. and i am not counting the role of AWACs

i think PAF being toasted will depend more on our approach..as if PAF can maintain 1/3 strength..it shouldnt get toasted..

No sir Thunder would pick the MKI at 100-120 Km may be even less(please don't bring the Maximum range figures here I know Its 105 for 5m2 RCS in look up and 75km in look down)... If EW is employed by MKI... KLJ-7 would have hard time coping with the extreme noise figures bombarded on its antenna(yes I know about K-3000 ECM pods)... and them comes the tracking factor.. tracking would be around 70-80km... again the EW factors comes here... lock would be broken multiple times with Radars being jammed.. but yes the Thunder would get time to shoot its BVR... weather or not that BVR would reach the Su30 is a different thing... But against F-16 the game changes... I would expect your AF to use the F-16 as an escort on Thunders while Intercepting the MKI.. with the Thunder being the lamb to sacrifice If the situation arises.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Sir

If you look into history of aerial warfare the country which have not been able to afford a High performance machine like a F-15E r a Su30MKI(take them as examples).. have invested in robust SAM capability... USAF is the most powerful AF what did the Soviets do against them... could they match them planes to planes and tech. to tech... No they build a robust network of Ground Radars and SAM systems... There would be a time in coming years that IAF would acquire 5th Gen. planes in bulk.. with PAF again left behind to do the catch up job... while they would still be struggling to come up with a proper answer against the later 4.5++ gen. planes acquired by IAF... where does that leave PAF against IAF doctrine be it whosoever... (Please don't talk here about miraculous economic recoveries and China Selling 50 5th gen. planes in soft loans or whatever).. lets be more realistic...

What do you know about PAF's SAM, Ground Radar and C4I systems? Since you are presenting yourself to be an expert on PAF, please make sure that you elaborate and provide comprehensive explanations.

Cheers

 

[SQ8]

What do you know about PAF's SAM, Ground Radar and C4I systems? Since you are presenting yourself to be an expert on PAF, please make sure that you elaborate and provide comprehensive explanations.

Cheers

Well because that data is not advertised on jingoistic sites and garlanded.. they dont exist in most "analysis".

 

[notorious_eagle]

No sir Thunder would pick the MKI at 100-120 Km may be even less(please don't bring the Maximum range figures here I know Its 105 for 5m2 RCS in look up and 75km in look down)...

The JF17 is going to be data linked to PAF's comprehensive C4I network system, that will allow it to see the MKI much earlier.

If EW is employed by MKI... KLJ-7 would have hard time coping with the extreme noise figures bombarded on its antenna(yes I know about K-3000 ECM pods)... and them comes the tracking factor.. tracking would be around 70-80km... again the EW factors comes here... lock would be broken multiple times with Radars being jammed..

And how can you be so sure that JF17 will have a hard time coping with MKI's EW suite? Did you personally analyze the KLJ-7 and performed extensive testing on it to reach this conclusion?

Sounds to me that you are just pulling these statements out of your a** as you have no empirical evidence to support our outlandish claims. JF17 itself has a EW pod and a self protection pod, not to mention that its going to be backed up by assets that specialize in electronic warfare.

But against F-16 the game changes... I would expect your AF to use the F-16 as an escort on Thunders while Intercepting the MKI.. with the Thunder being the lamb to sacrifice If the situation arises.

JF17 is primarily designed for the role of interceptors and they have proved their wit against the F16's when they hammered them in mock combats. F16's are primarily acquired to accompany strike packages due to their superior electronics and true multi role capability. Interception and air defence roles will primarily be assigned to the JF17's and F7PG's.

I am surprised that your knowledge regarding PAF is extremely weak considering the fact that you have consistently tried to portray yourself as a PAF expert.

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Well because that data is not advertised on jingoistic sites and garlanded.. they dont exist in most "analysis".

I am very well aware of that. But i just wanted to call out this gentlemen's bluff because i am getting tired of his cynical and jingoistic remarks.

 

[DARKY]

What do you know about PAF's SAM, Ground Radar and C4I systems? Since you are presenting yourself to be an expert on PAF, please make sure that you elaborate and provide comprehensive explanations.

Cheers

Nothing.. more than Couple of LRTRs imported from US(which off course are good) and a few from China... nothing really If you talk of SAM capability... I know SPADA but that counts in Nothing against super-sonic combat planes.. with good ECM capabilities.

 

[deckingraj]

And how can you be so sure that JF17 will have a hard time coping with MKI's EW suite? Did you personally analyze the KLJ-7 and performed extensive testing on it to reach this conclusion?

Sounds to me that you are just pulling these statements out of your a** as you have no empirical evidence to support our outlandish claims. JF17 itself has a EW pod and a self protection pod, not to mention that its going to be backed up by assets that specialize in electronic warfare.

The bold part doesn't suit you....You are surely better than this...b/w can i pose the same question to you...How do you know that MKI EW suite will not be able to make life hell for JF-17...Have you tested them extensively...Do you have that empirical data that shows and suggests anything like that?? In other words how shall we go about this discussion???

 

[SQ8]

Nothing.. more than Couple of LRTRs imported from US(which off course are good) and a few from China... nothing really If you talk of SAM capability... I know SPADA but that counts in Nothing against super-sonic combat planes.. with good ECM capabilities.

After that statement I truly have no regard left for you.
alll your talk of engineering and "understanding" of T/R modules and what not comes to naught by this little revelation.

---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------

The bold part doesn't suit you....You are surely better than this...b/w can i pose the same question to you...How do you know that MKI EW suite will not be able to make life hell for JF-17...Have you tested them extensively...Do you have that empirical data that shows and suggests anything like that?? In other words how shall we go about this discussion???

Then why make statements such as that in the first place as your countrymen are very eager to boast all about it without granting an inch to any hardware fielded by the PAF.. accusing us of hypocrisy when one stinks of it is not fair is it now?

 

[Manticore]

These are the very first batch of the 8 Su 30s without canards(MK-I) bought off the shelf from the Irkutsk plant with 100% Russian components..currently based at No. 24 Hawks squadron
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/117386-rare-pics-iaf-su-30mki.html

the countries with limited resources should buy aircrafts rather than defensive SAMs .. atleast they provide an option of attack