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PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

A fifth generation air force capability is one of four key areas that India has a head-start on Pakistan in, and in which Pakistan seems to be dragging its feet. The others are: space technology (both civilian and defensive), nuclear reactor technology (civilian and defensive) and a missile shield. We are currently doing a decent job of narrowing the gap India had managed on in the later 1990s and early 2000s in the defense field, but we must also look ahead.

As much as I don't appreciate the connotations of the thread starter, he has, nevertheless, identified a key issue. We are so content and happy with the JF-17s and FC-20s that we've failed to realize that, whatever the expected time frame of the PAK-FA is, India still has a significant jump on us. I would wholeheartedly support any move by Pakistan to divert funds from our F-16 and JF-17 procurement plans towards the famous (or infamous) J-XX. If not, at least we should try and lobby the US for the F-35.

Agreed that India has a head start in that but the major resitriction for PAF is that aviation industry is still in its nascency. We have just started mastering 4th Gen so it makes no sense to burden oneself with things that are too difficult to manage. Russia and China had been manufactring aircrafts from ages now and still they have tough times in developing a 5th gen. Raptor project was envisioned in early 80s while materialized in 2000s so even for US, it wasn't an easy task (look at JSF, for example). So first things first, get the job at hand done well to enhance the design and systems understanding. PAF is still at the initial end of a long learning curve. The best thing would be to get done with JFT as decently as possible, and then get FC-20 under ToT (As CAC is using J-10B as a testbed for JXX systems) to develop a knowhow of 5th Gen technologies. when done with these two things decently. Then PAF will be on some footing to think about something like 5th Gen. But i am looking around 2025+ for this thing not earlier than this
 
One step at a time.

I think the Pakistani airforce is not simply interested in acquiring whole planes but something akin to the JF-17 joint venture. The project has been beneficial to the aviation industry of both China and Pakistan. I think it is vital that Pakistan absorb the knowledge of 4.5th gen plane assembly (J-10B) before moving on to the J-XX.
 
T-50 has just been signed, its not like the fighter is out in the field..it is a "possible" threat in the future. Possible because the program has just initialized, who knows what its gonna run into in the next decade..10 years is a lot of time mate, did you guys think that the LCA would still be awaiting IOC in 2011 (2011 cuz we are pretty much there)..anyways that just goes to show how these kind of programs are really prone to just so many variables that could effect its progress.

And what of the final product once its operational ? its a totally different thing to draw it out on the paper but its a different story as to how it is actually going to perform ?

You would have us commit to an expensive a$$ stealth fighter project for a future probability, every other nation is now gearing up for 5th gen planes..why should we limit our choices..If T-50 manages to come to life then its well and good, we can go for the Chinese option then.

Also its not that PAF is always looking at mitigating immediate dangers, they do plan long term however, they have to work with a very limited budget and they have to make calculated decisions.
 
Hasnain009, I am not talking about engineering a Fifth Gen aircraft on our own, I'm not stupid. I am saying that we must start making moves in that direction. Compare Pakistan's aero industry to India's and you'll realize the gap isn't as huge as the case with India-China, still India is moving in that direction. We must too.

Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?
 
Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?

hmmm under estimate LCA.... neverthless your point is valid.. JV has always worked for us... considering MKI and Brahmos.. we will surely bring this bird to life.. as $30^9 is a huge money which we wont waste...
 
Hasnain009, I am not talking about engineering a Fifth Gen aircraft on our own, I'm not stupid. I am saying that we must start making moves in that direction. Compare Pakistan's aero industry to India's and you'll realize the gap isn't as huge as the case with India-China, still India is moving in that direction. We must too.

Creder, please do not purposely underestimate and ridicule the Indian PAK-FA program. It doesn't help. It is not just a "possible" future threat, it is a very much "probable" future threat. And this isn't the LCA, it's a Russian design. I would rather we overestimate the threat than underestimate it for the sole purpose of "feeling good". Lastly, investing bow will cost significantly less than it would if we go for the "wait and see" approach. And who said China would be willing to part with it's most high tech aircraft?
I am also not referring to manufacture a 5th gen locally, the intention of examples was that even if a country has significant experience with 4 or 4.5th gen machine manufacturing and designing, 5th Gen is still a hard nut to crack. Considering PAF's need for replacement of 3rd gen fleet and no manufacturing experience of combat aircrafts, Its simply too demanding given the limited human and financial resources PAF has. I have said it before that PAF would certainly eye a 5th gen if regional situation warrented it. But its simply too far flungh at this point of time
 
hmmm under estimate LCA.... neverthless your point is valid.. JV has always worked for us... considering MKI and Brahmos.. we will surely bring this bird to life.. as $30^9 is a huge money which we wont waste...
No, sir, not underestimating the LCA. Merely pointing to the fact that it is far behind on schedule and still under-developed, partially owing to India's lack of experience in the area. I followed that by saying that "this is a Russian design", i.e., they have done this a hundred times in the past and, therefore, it is much more of a threat.

I am also not referring to manufacture a 5th gen locally, the intention of examples was that even if a country has significant experience with 4 or 4.5th gen machine manufacturing and designing, 5th Gen is still a hard nut to crack. Considering PAF's need for replacement of 3rd gen fleet and no manufacturing experience of combat aircrafts, Its simply too demanding given the limited human and financial resources PAF has. I have said it before that PAF would certainly eye a 5th gen if regional situation warrented it. But its simply too far flungh at this point of time
Sir, I am not denying any of your points. But please consider the fact that nobody, not Russia, not China and certainly not India, has had a taste of Fifth Gen before, and yet they are pursuing it. We may not have a great deal of experiencing designing 4th Gen aircraft, but we certainly have some 20 years of experience operating them, which is, incidentally, longer than India has.

See, here's how I see it. Even if we can't provide technical know-how, we can, at least, assist with specifications and requirements development, program management, and, most importantly, funding. If, say, Pakistan can become a 25% partner in the J-XX program (hypothetically speaking), that would not only solve our 5th Gen problems (possibly with ToPT once we are able to absorb it), it will even be more cost effective in the long term (as the per unit cost will certainly be much greater once it is in the production phase). The key difference to understand is that investment is greater than purchasing, and since the PAF has to move towards the 5th Gen eventually, why not invest?

Of course, that is only one idea. I'm sure if the PAF's top brass sat down to address this problem, they would find many more. Like I said, the F-35 may also be a possibility.
 
We cant say on the success of Russian & Indian Joint venure on 5th gene AC, they are already lacking and delayed in their LCA project.

Even if PAK-FA comes in 2018, still that would take atleast 5 years to become mature, battle proven, exercise proven etc etc.
I think IAF will not get it hands on before 2022. So I think we should focus to F-16s & JF-17's to counter IAF SU30's, Mig's and Mirages and to fill the GAP.

As far 5th generation AC's for PAF, so being a F-16 Customer we are already in books for F35 future induction. J-XX is another on the list.

So, sleep tight no worries coz PAF is awaking.
 
Hi All,
This is my first post and I belive some of you may not like it.

5th Generation and Pakistan:

If we want to make Pakistan stronger and a developed nation we have to think after 20 or 30 years . We have to plane know about 2020 not at 2020 for 2020.
Pakistan is having big amount of money just need proper utilization. Don’t worry about technology advancement. As an electronic Engineer I can tell you one thing when you are into electronics you can learn a 100 years advancement in 6 months and develop them in 1 year.
Before the advent of Diode what was electronics but when it advent everything changes immediately.
So we have to think about current requirements but in the same time we have to think about future requirements as well. Believe me if today we will start a programme for a 6th generation Fighter plan I can give you with in 5 years. Just what is required is a dedicated team with good knowledge and some money.
I don’t trust on single engine ,single pilot fighter plans for future requirements . If you want to see future plane you have to think about future . If i will go into details it will be very long so i want your answers to go further.
Islam teaches us one thing: always prepare our horses:
 
Hi All,
This is my first post and I belive some of you may not like it.

5th Generation and Pakistan:

If we want to make Pakistan stronger and a developed nation we have to think after 20 or 30 years . We have to plane know about 2020 not at 2020 for 2020.
Pakistan is having big amount of money just need proper utilization. Don’t worry about technology advancement. As an electronic Engineer I can tell you one thing when you are into electronics you can learn a 100 years advancement in 6 months and develop them in 1 year.
Before the advent of Diode what was electronics but when it advent everything changes immediately.
So we have to think about current requirements but in the same time we have to think about future requirements as well. Believe me if today we will start a programme for a 6th generation Fighter plan I can give you with in 5 years. Just what is required is a dedicated team with good knowledge and some money.
I don’t trust on single engine ,single pilot fighter plans for future requirements . If you want to see future plane you have to think about future . If i will go into details it will be very long so i want your answers to go further.
Islam teaches us one thing: always prepare our horses:

Welcome on board.

My 2 Lakh Rs advice.
If u want to learn then first read the posts of very senior Members (Like Moderators, Thinktank, fatman17,Mastan Khan etc). U will get mature and participate as other senior & genius people on this board.
 
2 good fighter plans are better then 100 ordinary plans. 2 good fighter plans can give you a damage more then 100 .
A war can be win or lose by those 2. Belive me if a country is having 20 6th Generation plans or 5th generation plans you can't do anything with 1000 F-16 type of plans . They will be destroyed in no time like toyes. It will be game for enjoyment for the countries with latest technology plans.
So in my point of view F-16 is nothing now in current world scenario.
Brothers don't take me wrong but we are in big danger and we have to think and act fast.
 
thanks for advice .. I will try to read all the posts depending upon the available time.. regarding the senior or junior i don’t believe.. i believe on knowledge . if a person is senior without knowledge he is useless..
I don’t know the persons you are talking about i will try to read their posts..
Well thanks again...
 
Welcome on board.

My 2 Lakh Rs advice.
If u want to learn then first read the posts of very senior Members (Like Moderators, Thinktank, fatman17,Mastan Khan etc). U will get mature and participate as other senior & genius people on this board.

:no::cheers::smokin:

Information is not knowledge.”
Albert Einstein quotes
 
2 good fighter plans are better then 100 ordinary plans. 2 good fighter plans can give you a damage more then 100 .
A war can be win or lose by those 2. Belive me if a country is having 20 6th Generation plans or 5th generation plans you can't do anything with 1000 F-16 type of plans . They will be destroyed in no time like toyes. It will be game for enjoyment for the countries with latest technology plans.
So in my point of view F-16 is nothing now in current world scenario.
Brothers don't take me wrong but we are in big danger and we have to think and act fast.

Dont underestimate 4th generation fighters ....they are still capable to challange AC's of 4.5th n 5th gen AC 's.

F-16 is the worlds best and war proven Air Craft.
 
thanks for advice .. I will try to read all the posts depending upon the available time.. regarding the senior or junior i don’t believe.. i believe on knowledge . if a person is senior without knowledge he is useless..
I don’t know the persons you are talking about i will try to read their posts..
Well thanks again...

There are many people..
Miltary officers.
Journalists..
n many who hav knolwedge in the defence profession.
Batter then people like me n u.

Just a note for advice.
 

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