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Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircatft project : Indian Air Force

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter

New Delhi says Sukhoi T-50 is pricey, sloppy, under-powered

Russia’s new T-50 stealth fighter is fast, maneuverable, heavily-armed and hard to detect on radar. In theory.

But according to Indian air force officials, in practice the Sukhoi-made stealth jet is also too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines.

The Indians’ complaints illustrate the yawning gulf between stealth warplane design and the actual production of radar-evading jets. In other words, it’s one thing to sketch an advanced warplane on paper. It’s quite another to build one and get it to work.

All new aerospace development is difficult and many planes get poor reviews early in testing. But the gripes coming out of New Delhi are particularly worrisome for the Russians.

Sukhoi is working on two variants of the T-50—one for Russian use and another for the Indians. The Indian air force has ambitions to purchase 144 of the stealth jets, and the money from this sale underpins the entire T-50 development effort. New Delhi is also kicking in $6 billion for design work.

Without the Indians’ cash, there wouldn’t be a T-50. And Russia would have basically no hope of acquiring a stealth jet to counter the Americans’ F-22s and F-35s and Chinese J-20s and J-31s.

1*364yYcoQEkIk-LnZ1Y8nvQ.jpeg

A T-50 suffers an engine flame-out during a 2011 air show.


The Russian version of the T-50 is reportedly simpler than the Indian version, which includes Indian avionics and a wider range of compatible weapons. Five Russian T-50 prototypes are flying. The Indian model still exists only on paper.

But that hasn’t stopped the Indian air force from voicing its unhappiness with the T-50. According to transcripts of December and January meetings obtained by Business Standard, air force and defense ministry officials listed at least four “shortfalls … in terms of performance and other technical features”:

The AL-41F engines currently fitted to the T-50 are unreliable. The radar is inadequate. The airframe is poorly built, with serious implications for the jet’s stealth profile. And in light of these defects, $6 billion is too much to pay up front.

According to Business Standard, Russian officials countered, saying the AL-41F engines are a temporary fit until brand-new and more powerful motors can be developed. The radar, too, is temporary—pending new sensors being developed specifically for the Indian version of the warplane.

But the allegations of sloppy construction appear to be particularly serious. Besides posing an accident risk, low-quality construction can result in gaps and mismatched angles that elevate a plane’s radar signature.

Press reports in 2013 indicated that Sukhoi was having problems with quality control in the T-50 effort. At least one of the prototypes needed patches on its wings to keep from falling apart during high-stress maneuvers.

All the same, Business Standard speculates that the Indian complaints could be somewhat politically motivated, as New Delhi is also planning to buy 126 new Rafale fighters from France for an eye-watering total price of $18 billion. Scrapping the T-50 could help India pay for the French jets.
 
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Yes US ahead of in Military technology that's why lost each and every War in history. They are ahead in stealth tech because of that Knight-hawk 117 shoot down haina? They never use F22 raptor against any country just to safe side their Air supermacy tactics. If any country shoot down F22 US Air supermacy badmashi will ***** up!

Nobody has claimed the F117 or the F22 are invincible. If they were we would have 1000 of them. BTW what country were we holding back using our F22's....Iraq..Afghanistan? It only went in service in 2005.
 
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although posted in separate thread ...I am posting here for convenience .


Russia Offers Joint Productions On All Future Defense Deals With India
, As IAF Reportedly Criticizes FGFA Deal
Wednesday, January 22, 2014


Sukhoi_T_50_PAK_FA_by_nellenmellen.jpg


Joint productions of all future projects is expected to be the new norm in Indo-Russian relations after Moscow last year offered to set up manufacturing facilities in the country for joint production of defence hardware.

India and Russia agreed to set up manufacturing facilities in India for joint production of defence hardware during Deputy Prime Minister of Russia Dmitry Rogozin’s state visit to New Delhi last year.

The two countries are reportedly on the brink of signing various new defence deals this year such as the contract to integrate the Brahmos cruise missile aboard the multifunctional fighter Su-30MKI, the joint development of the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA), a $471 million contract to supply Invar Anti Tank Guided Missiles to the Indian arm and a $ 3 billion deal to procure 42 new Su–30 MKI combat aircraft and 71 Mi–17V5 medium-lift helicopters.



However, the Indian Air Force is reported to have has criticized the $6 billion project (expected to be signed soon) and has alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance.


An Indian newspaper, Business Standard reported that the IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS) said the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.



The Indian Ministry of Defense had earlier rejected the prospect of buying the American fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, declaring the FGFA would suffice. According to Indian scientists, the knowledge gained from the FGFA will help India develop an indigenous fifth generation fighter called the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).



The next step in the FGFA project is the signing the R&D phase of the project which is likely to cost $11 billion. India and Russia, in 2010, signed the preliminary design contract (PDC) worth $295 million under which Indian designers and scientists were even stationed in Russia to work out the blueprints and documentation for the fighter.

Last year, the project fell under a cloud after Russia hiked the cost of manufacturing the aircraft. The project could end up costing India over $35 billion over the next two decades from the original $30 billion for over 200 fighters.



However, HAL has reportedly proposed to surrender 30 percent of its 50 percent work share – a move that has allegedly left the Indian Air Force fuming. India has also reportedly expressed its unhappiness over the fact that it is getting only 15 percent of the research and development work share despite paying half the development cost.



The second and third prototypes are to arrive in India in 2017 and 2019 respectively and the IAF has planned to induct the fighter by 2022. In 2012, then Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned.



The FGFA will be based on the Sukhoi T-50 (which has four variants) and will be developed to suit the IAFs needs.

The IAF had initially pitched for 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat fighters but will go for only single-cockpit jets now to reduce costs as well as protect stealth features



Currently, Russia is testing several prototypes of the T-50 aircraft, which is due to enter service with the Russian Air Force after 2017.



India has expressed interest in developing some of the aircraft's computers, software, guidance systems and other systems, as it did for a similar project with Russia producing a locally-made variant of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike aircraft.

Russia Offers Joint Productions On All Future Defense Deals With India, As IAF Reportedly Criticizes FGFA Deal
 
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Dunno about you folks but the PAKFA looks like a dream machine. Backing it all the way. Lets hope the government doesn't cock it up like the MMRCA deal.
 
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Dunno about you folks but the PAKFA looks like a dream machine. Backing it all the way. Lets hope the government doesn't cock it up like the MMRCA deal.

do you think that India is trying to allocate funds on this project to get MMRCA deal? That could be the case, India do not have infinitely amount of money and it has to pick one project other another.
 
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do you think that India is trying to allocate funds on this project to get MMRCA deal? That could be the case, India do not have infinitely amount of money and it has to pick one project other another.

Money was never the issue with us Indians. Every year the defense allocation funds get returned to the kitty because our politicians sit on their fat arses for ages before coming to a decision. 2012's allocation of Rs 37,000 crores (USD 6 billion and change) was returned because they dilly dallying with the arms procurement processes. We are currently sitting on a dedicated kitty of $25 billion odd dollars because of the same effing problem. :-/
 
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Money was never the issue with us Indians. Every year the defense allocation funds get returned to the kitty because our politicians sit on their fat arses for ages before coming to a decision. 2012's allocation of Rs 37,000 crores (USD 6 billion and change) was returned because they dilly dallying with the arms procurement processes. We are currently sitting on a dedicated kitty of $25 billion odd dollars because of the same effing problem. :-/

Its because the politicians are indecisive. The politicians make too much promise to people and the research orgs by claiming that they can get TOT from the French and the Russians. The fact is that these countries are not going to share the latest tech, no matter how much you pay them. This goes for every country as no country would share their most critical technology. So India is not going to grow just by trying to buy the latest TOT from another country. What India should do is to just buy the know hows on building Rafale and pay less per plane. With the saved money, it can help Russia build the T-50 and get it done faster. India can request a major discount per plane or even buy it at cost as it already contributed some money in the test phase to get the plane ready. That is what India should do to acquire its planes in the quicker pace at a less price. Finally, India should continue to develop engine technology that no one would transfer by itself. But do not tie it to a internal project as India is not ready for that.
 
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I said this yesterday

For me it has to be either 126 rafale @ $25 billion

Or

144 PAK FA FGFA @ $25 billion

Thet cant afford both

that is certain
 
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Rafale cannot even take on J-10B, let alone J-20 which has DSI, AESA, EOTS, none of which Rafale has. PAK-FA is India's only answer to J-20. :p:
 
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Bringing in the US doesn't hide the fact that you can't build a fighter after 22 years. :omghaha:
If Liaoning is a casino ship, what India has is a fishing boat. Grow a brain, fact find before opening your mouth, don't bring down american and indian IQ score.:omghaha:

Laoing is casionling and we all know it... once again you guys are the 2nd largest GDP, have way more resources than India and still have a worldwide reputation of " made in china" product.... aka garbage :rofl:



says the guy whose country is laughing stock worldwide for his " MADE IN CHINA" brand. :lol:
PTCVoice: Six Reasons Why China Is Losing Its Edge In Manufacturing - Forbes
 
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Laoing is casionling and we all know it... once again you guys are the 2nd largest GDP, have way more resources than India and still have a worldwide reputation of " made in china" product.... aka garbage :rofl:




says the guy whose country is laughing stock worldwide for his " MADE IN CHINA" brand. :lol:
Guess how China managed to become the 2nd largest GDP, by Selling Garbage.
Also guess which country is buying most of this Garbage???
Even a 2 year old would have more brains than your Garbage mouth.
 
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Laoing is casionling and we all know it... once again you guys are the 2nd largest GDP, have way more resources than India and still have a worldwide reputation of " made in china" product.... aka garbage :rofl:

Inferior Intellect, unsound argument. Come back when you can make a coherent argument.

says the guy whose country is laughing stock worldwide for his " MADE IN CHINA" brand. :lol:
PTCVoice: Six Reasons Why China Is Losing Its Edge In Manufacturing - Forbes

The joke is on India who has to import and rebrand CHinese made phone as Indian, you have zero manufacturing capability :omghaha:
 
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Inferior Intellect, unsound argument. Come back when you can make a coherent argument.



The joke is on India who has to import and rebrand CHinese made phone as Indian, you have zero manufacturing capability :omghaha:

Chinese import/steal our designs... but you get mad when someone else does it to China? I think the Indians call this Karma.
 
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Chinese import/steal our designs... but you get mad when someone else does it to China? I think the Indians call this Karma.
That karma crap is for incapable people wanting to feel good about themselves
 
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