Operation Rah-e-Nijat

[Javed3]

Dear fatman17:

“Equivalent” of 8 Divisions includes Regular and FC elements deployed in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram, North Waziristan and the support formations in Bannu, Kohat, Nowshera. Also do not forget the deployment in Mekran, Kharan, Kohlu, Dera Bugti, Khuzdar, Zhob. The three (3) Divs you are talking about are apparently dedicated to the assault on South Waziristan. A division’s strength can vary from 12,000 – 18,000 depending on the formations. Independent brigades, SSG, Logistics, Signals, support units too

Four (4) PAF squadrons are almost exclusively dedicated to the anti-terror missions (No’s 16, 14, 9, 25). Most strikes are launched by A-5, F7 and F-16’s.

There can be two inferences from the above data:
1. These assets / formations were actually surplus to our genuine national security requirements. The anti terror operations have been created to justify their need. They need to be demobilized at the earliest opportunity.
2. OR we are seriously eroding our conventional posture, over stretching our limited resources, and making ourselves too vulnerable.

I personally think (2) is the right conclusion.

 

[waraich66]

Dear fatman17:

“Equivalent” of 8 Divisions includes Regular and FC elements deployed in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram, North Waziristan and the support formations in Bannu, Kohat, Nowshera. Also do not forget the deployment in Mekran, Kharan, Kohlu, Dera Bugti, Khuzdar, Zhob. The three (3) Divs you are talking about are apparently dedicated to the assault on South Waziristan. A division’s strength can vary from 12,000 – 18,000 depending on the formations. Independent brigades, SSG, Logistics, Signals, support units too

Four (4) PAF squadrons are almost exclusively dedicated to the anti-terror missions (No’s 16, 14, 9, 25). Most strikes are launched by A-5, F7 and F-16’s.

There can be two inferences from the above data:
1. These assets / formations were actually surplus to our genuine national security requirements. The anti terror operations have been created to justify their need. They need to be demobilized at the earliest opportunity.
2. OR we are seriously eroding our conventional posture, over stretching our limited resources, and making ourselves too vulnerable.

I personally think (2) is the right conclusion.

What is reason after 65 war our army victory graph is going down ward ?

1971 War - We lost half East Paskistan.
Gargil - We fail to achieve the objective.
Wana War - We fail to achieve the objective.


Swat - continued
Waziristan- Planning


Can think tank or retired miltery professional put light on reason of our failure .

 

[TaimiKhan]

Dear fatman17:

“Equivalent” of 8 Divisions includes Regular and FC elements deployed in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram, North Waziristan and the support formations in Bannu, Kohat, Nowshera. Also do not forget the deployment in Mekran, Kharan, Kohlu, Dera Bugti, Khuzdar, Zhob. The three (3) Divs you are talking about are apparently dedicated to the assault on South Waziristan. A division’s strength can vary from 12,000 – 18,000 depending on the formations. Independent brigades, SSG, Logistics, Signals, support units too

Four (4) PAF squadrons are almost exclusively dedicated to the anti-terror missions (No’s 16, 14, 9, 25). Most strikes are launched by A-5, F7 and F-16’s.

There can be two inferences from the above data:
1. These assets / formations were actually surplus to our genuine national security requirements. The anti terror operations have been created to justify their need. They need to be demobilized at the earliest opportunity.
2. OR we are seriously eroding our conventional posture, over stretching our limited resources, and making ourselves too vulnerable.

I personally think (2) is the right conclusion.

FC has always been deployed there, so this is no new formation to have been deployed, this has been their domain.

As for Waziristan Theater of Operations:

One fighting formation unit has approx 800 guys.

Brigade = 3units = 800*3= 2400 approx

One Div = 3 Brigades = 3*2400 = 7200 approx

2 Div = 2*7200 = 14500 or take it to 15000 fighting formation troops, and in reserve there is no one full division rather one brigade each with one division at the most.

15000+2400+2400= 20,000 approx army

As for FC, there are 3 FC corps in Waziristan, South Waziristan Scouts, Shawal Rifles & Tochi Scouts. Each corps have round about 1500-2000 men, lets take the figure on the upside 2000*3=6000

So you get 20000 (Army) + 6000 (FC) = 26000 men and the figure of 28000 can be reached with some additional support units like armor & engineers & supply guys & aviation guys too, by the way they are not deployed in brigade sizes, rather units or company strength as per ground requirements.

So its very much clear that army has not compromised its defensive posture vs India as the divisions deployed are the ones which are in reserve. No divisions have been taken from the front line, that is the reason US cries that Pakistan has not deployed much forces & still its forces are India centric & fully deployed with the Indian border. Hope so you must have read that.

The last public figure for total FC NWFP was given as around 40,000 men & there are around 14+ FC Corps in all the FATA regions with disproportional strengths. Some have more men, some have less.

And as for PAF, if we go your reasoning 4 SQDs means roughly we have deployed around 70+ air crafts just for such things, then i don't understand why don't we see non stop aerial bombardment as 70+ air crafts can do nearly 24hr missions. I am in Peshawar, living right next to the air base, i barely see A-5s flying or in numbers & frequency to suggest something extra ordinary is happening.

If you look at the pattern of air strikes they are not each & everyday, once in a while & very often the heavy ones like we saw at the start of Swat Operation.

By the way the whole SQD of 18+ aircrafts don't sit all day long to just go for this bombardment, only 2 or 3 are set aside for something important, rest do their own flying & training & operational sorties. Hardly less then 10 air crafts would be on the notice to take off for any strike. Yes sorties will increase at the launch of the operation & will die down as the operation goes & more ground operations start.

Also, Waziristan & Bajaur have army formations in large numbers, in rest of the areas FC is doing the major part of operations, just in some cases supported by small army support elements.

None of your above mentioned 2 inferences are correct.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What is reason after 65 war our army victory graph is going down ward ?

1971 War - We lost half East Paskistan.
Gargil - We fail to achieve the objective.
Wana War - We fail to achieve the objective.


Swat - continued
Waziristan- Planning


Can think tank or retired miltery professional put light on reason of our failure .

For 1971 war, plz do see the map of East Pakistan, specially its boundaries & the number of Indian divisions deployed vs the Pakistan numbers. Also do some reading as how the Indian army penetrated the border & without fighting the PA by passed their positions as the terrain of East Pakistan had very few areas where pitch battles could take place. Also, maximum numbers of PA garrisons were not taken, they only surrendered after the general surrender was ordered, in many battles the Indian Army could not take their objectives.

Its Kargil, and we failed in Political Objectives, not militarily. Most of the posts were in our hands, after the Political debacle, did the captured posts were emptied & if you read Indian articles, even now some of the Indian posts are with PA. But it was a waste of men, material, resources, this thing wasn't needed or required.

As for the first Wana Operation failure, the will was lacking in the Army.

In Swat we had the will, see how they routed them out even with so much difficulties being encountered.

As for the new Wana Operation, time will tell, but they can & will make TTP run, that's for sure, as the will needed is now there.

 

[Patriot]

Of Fundamaltest you forgot to include
Swat War - We kicked out the Tafkiri TTP group and their supporters.They are on the run now at least from Swat anyway.

 

[Xeric]

In another report, the Guardian said Pakistan’s military, which nurtured the jihadist monster over the past three decades, was facing the wrath of its own protégé, like Frankenstein’s monster turned on its own creator.

 

[Xeric]

Dear fatman17:

“Equivalent” of 8 Divisions includes Regular and FC elements deployed in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram, North Waziristan and the support formations in Bannu, Kohat, Nowshera. Also do not forget the deployment in Mekran, Kharan, Kohlu, Dera Bugti, Khuzdar, Zhob. The three (3) Divs you are talking about are apparently dedicated to the assault on South Waziristan. A division’s strength can vary from 12,000 – 18,000 depending on the formations. Independent brigades, SSG, Logistics, Signals, support units too

Four (4) PAF squadrons are almost exclusively dedicated to the anti-terror missions (No’s 16, 14, 9, 25). Most strikes are launched by A-5, F7 and F-16’s.

There can be two inferences from the above data:
1. These assets / formations were actually surplus to our genuine national security requirements. The anti terror operations have been created to justify their need. They need to be demobilized at the earliest opportunity.
2. OR we are seriously eroding our conventional posture, over stretching our limited resources, and making ourselves too vulnerable.

I personally think (2) is the right conclusion.

Well this shows how blinded people can go in order to justify a false point.

Sir,

Why on earth are you including the in-situ troops in these areas?

And why did you include BALOCHISTAN in these figures..?? D. Bugti, Khusdar etc etc..?? From where did this come from?

And BTW, the way you have compared and placed D. Bugti/Khuzdar in the vicinity of Dera Gazi Khan and Kholu it tells me how weak you are not only in (Pakistani) geography, but also in understanding the way forces are mobilized!

BTW, i forgot to mention that, if you didnt know earlier that our 11 and 12 Corps have been there for the safeguard of NWFP and Balochistan!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Air strikes in South Waziristan kill 17
By Anwarullah Khan and Sailab Mehsud
Thursday, 15 Oct, 2009


LADDAH/KHAR: Warplanes hit militants’ hideouts and some civilian areas in South Waziristan, leaving 17 militants and some non-combatants dead.

According to sources, two planes bombed militant positions in Saam, Khasura, Spinkai, Gorgoray and Tangi Bazay areas. According to local people, one of the bombs hit a cave-house in Spinkai area, killing one Nekum Khan and eight members of his family and injured six others.

Security officials said the father of local Taliban leader Noor Wali Mehsud was killed when a bomb hit his house. They said the total number of militants killed in the attack could not be ascertained.

Sources said that the number of casualties in the air strikes which started on Tuesday was 26.

The town of Sara Rogha which had almost been destroyed during a military operation last year also came under attack on Wednesday.

Nine people were killed in an attack on Maulvi Khan Sarai on Tuesday. Houses of two tribal elders, Yaqoob Shah and Allauddin Mehsud, were hit in Shinkai Mela.

According to reports reaching here, militants have asked shopkeepers and about 200 people living near Razmak town in North Waziristan to move to safe places.

Thousands of tribal people, it may be mentioned, left the area amid reports of an imminent military offensive in the Mehsud area.

Security forces are reported to be consolidating their positions and moving tanks and heavy artillery towards Makin and Razmak. Troops are also building strategic roads on Mamo mountains.

In Bajaur, troops have intensified action in Salarzai where air and ground offensive was launched on Monday.

Local people said that troops backed by tanks and artillery entered the area on Wednesday and set up checkpoints. They were received by elders of Salarzai tribe and volunteers of the local lashkar.

Witnesses said that a convoy of more than 80 vehicles had entered Pashet and headed towards Mulla Said and Torget areas.

Elders of Salarzai had been asking the government for some time to send troops to the area and have raised a lashkar against militants.

Security forces have secured hilltops and other key locations to curtail movement of militants.

Meanwhile, helicopter gunships attacked militants’ hideouts in Mamond on Wednesday. Five suspected militants were killed and seven others injured. Troops have also claimed destroying several bunkers.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...06-south-waziristan-air-strikes-kill-17-rs-07

 

[TaimiKhan]

US strike on suspected militant hideout kills four
Thursday, 15 Oct, 2009

MIRANSHAH, Pakistan: A US drone missile attack on a suspected militant hideout in a remote tribal area in northwest Pakistan early Thursday killed at least four people, security officials said.

The pre-dawn strike targeted the suspected militant compound in Dandey Darpa Khel in the North Waziristan region near the Afghan border, a security official said.

‘It was a drone strike and initial reports said at least three people were killed and several wounded,’ the official said, requesting anonymity.

A senior security official later said four people were killed and six wounded. A third security official said two missiles were fired by the pilot-less aircraft. They hit a house belonging to an Afghan refugee, he said.

‘It was a suspected militant hideout,’ he added.

Afghan Taliban leader Jalaluddin Haqqani's group is said to be active in the area.Haqqani served as a minister in the Taliban government which was ousted in late 2001 in the US-led invasion of Afghanistan.

Northwest Pakistan is seeing a surge in US strikes as the United States tries to stem the flow of militants waging a deadly insurgency against about 100,000 foreign troops stationed across the border.

The US military does not, as a rule, confirm drone attacks, but its armed forces and the Central Intelligence Agency operating in Afghanistan are the only forces that deploy drones without pilots in the region.

The fatalities are impossible to verify independently due to the lack of confirmation of the strikes by the United States and because the targets are deep in Taliban-controlled territory.

Islamabad publicly opposes the US missile strikes, saying they violate its territorial sovereignty. Since August 2008, dozens such strikes have killed nearly 600 people.

But the Pakistani government welcomed the death of Taliban warlord Baitullah Mehsud in a US drone attack on August 5, and analysts say Islamabad gives its tacit support to the strikes.

Pakistan's security forces are also engaged in a fierce offensive against Taliban fighters in the northwest whom they blame for a wave of attacks across Pakistan that has killed more than 2,100 people in the past two years. –AFP

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | US strike on suspected militant hideout kills four

 

[fatman17]

More troops, tanks move into Waziristan, 10 Taliban killed

* Jet planes bomb Taliban hideouts in Ladha tehsil
* Locals leaving area in anticipation of full-scale offensive

Staff Report

TANK: At least 11 Taliban were killed and seven injured when jet planes bombed the group’s hideouts in South Waziristan on Wednesday, said officials, as more soldiers and tanks moved into the agency for an expected offensive.

Political Administration officials told Daily Times that two jet planes bombed Taliban hideouts in Maidan, Tangi, Bodaizai, Kacha Langar Khel, Sam, Ragh and Salairogha areas of Ladha teshil, killing 11 Taliban.

Also, eight members of a family were killed and one injured in airstrikes in Sarokai tehsil, said locals, and political authorities confirmed the civilian casualties.

Thousands of civilians have fled South Waziristan in anticipation of a military offensive.

The Reuters news agency quoted officials as saying on Monday that the military was sending more soldiers into mountains overlooking Makeen, a Taliban stronghold, while other soldiers were approaching from another direction.

“We’ve seen many tanks coming here since yesterday. Some went to their camp while others were deployed in the mountains,” said a resident of Shankai village.

 

[fatman17]

Troops, lashkar flush out Taliban from stronghold in Bajaur

KHAR: Security forces evicted Taliban from one of their strongholds in Bajaur Agency on Wednesday, said officials. A tribal lashkar also joined troops to flush out Taliban from Mulla Sayed areas in Salarzai tehsil, according to military officials. “The forces and the lashkar have occupied important heights in Damadola, a stronghold of the Taliban,” said a statement by the Frontier Corps Media Centre in Peshawar. The lashkar also handed over positions taken from the Taliban. According to witness accounts, at least 30 Taliban have been killed in the agency over the last three days. Drones struck twice in Damadola in 2006 following reports on the presence of senior Al Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri in the area. However, Zawahiri survived the two strikes.

staff report

 

[PakShaheen79]

So, who was killed in air strikes? I mean did we get any big fish in these attacks or these are against terrorist infrastructure only?

 

[TruthSeeker]

So, who was killed in air strikes? I mean did we get any big fish in these attacks or these are against terrorist infrastructure only?

How many innocents were killed? Why isn't that as big a question for air strikes as it is for drone strikes? Is "terrorist infrastructure" a new euphemism for "collateral damage"? Maybe Pakistani Air Force caused collateral damage is OK, even if it is never reported? Maybe no one really knows since the areas where the air strikes occurred are in "enemy" territory and only the enemies know the true facts .....

 

[waraich66]

How many innocents were killed? Why isn't that as big a question for air strikes as it is for drone strikes? Is "terrorist infrastructure" a new euphemism for "collateral damage"? Maybe Pakistani Air Force caused collateral damage is OK, even if it is never reported? Maybe no one really knows since the areas where the air strikes occurred are in "enemy" territory and only the enemies know the true facts .....

Air force is not bombing on civilian population or their villages , so their is no question of innocient killing , your drones are killing innocient civilian better stop them ,do some protest infront of white house

 

[TruthSeeker]

Air force is not bombing on civilian population or their villages , so their is no question of innocient killing ...

Fundamentalist, you have no idea where the PAF is dropping their bombs. It defies reason that they are dropping their bombs anywhere OTHER THAN the same places that drone strikes have been directed. After all, the targeting intelligence and decision makers are the same. the only difference is that the drones have enough dwell time and accuracy to make sure the target is legitimate and to minimize collateral damage. Air plane strikes are an order of magnitude less controlled. Please think.