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Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)

I won't offer you my full brief in retort yet but some base premises of yours need challenging now-

"Predator attacks are a no-no. Period...Be it Nigeria, Algeria or the US, no state can violate another country's sovereignty and conduct strikes."

Presumption, of course, is that the state exercises de facto along with de jure sovereignty over its lands. You might consider what constitutes both because both must exist to provide de jure sovereignty a foundation. For instance, what did attacks from Pakistani soil by Nek Mohammad, a Pakistani civilian, and his minions upon Afghanistan constitute? Further, what was de facto established by the abortive negotiations conducted by the Musharraf government with Mohammad?

You also said-

"America is thousands of miles away, it is safe. Nothing has happened after 9/11."

9/11 happened. So too a prior WTC bombing in 1994. So too, evidently forgotten by you, an abortive attack this Christmas day over the skies of Detroit.

Finally, beyond our sovereign territory, our troops are stationed by invitation much closer than "thousands of miles away".

"Just out of curiosity, how many predator attacks have taken place in the provinces not under the ISAF's forces in Afghanistan?"

Are you ready to declare certain provinces in Afghanistan as under some authority other than the GoA/ISAF? If so, which, may I ask?

In any case, why is this relevant when we possess other means within Afghanistan to address those threats, thus relieving PREDATOR to remain our least intrusive means for addressing threats away from Afghanistan?

"How about this: with great power comes even greater responsibility..."

Least intrusive implies exactly that. Consider the myriad options available for our defense should the principle of such hold validity. Some might suggest, "In for a penny, in for a pound". We haven't...yet.

As Arnold says, "I'll be back..." but kudos to lil' Elmo for asking important questions, even if couched as assertions.:agree:

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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As Arnold says, "I'll be back..." but kudos to lil' Elmo for asking important questions, even if couched as assertions

oooh! how nice!!!:cheers: you'd never reply like this to us 'peeps'
 
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"oooh! how nice!!!:cheers:"

Thank you. She is nice.

"you'd never reply like this to us"

Have you or others provided even the modicum of independant research on this issue which is reflected in her post?:agree:

"'peeps'"

Take it up with Elmo. That is her word. Not mine.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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In the year 2525,If man is still alive,

If woman can survive,They may find-
In the year 3535Ain't gonna need to tell the truth,Tell no lies.Everything you think, do, and sayIs in the pill you took today.
In the year 4545Ain't gonna need your teeth,Won't need your eyes.You won't find a thing to chew,Nobody's gonna look at you.
In the year 5555Your arms are hanging limp at your side,You legs got nothing to do,Some machine's doing that for you.
In the year 6565Ain't gonna need no husband,Won't need no wife.You'll pick your sons, pick your daughters tooFrom the bottom of a long glass tube.Whoa-oh-oh.
In the year 7510If God's a-comingHe ought to make it by then.Maybe he'll look around himself and say,"Guess it's time for the Judgement Day."
In the year 8510God is gonna shake his mighty head.He'll either say, "I'm pleased where man has been"Or tear it down and start again.Whoa-oh-oh
In the year 9595I'm kinda wonderingIf man is gonna be alive;He's taken everything this old Earth can giveAnd he ain't put back nothing.
Now it's been ten thousand years,Man has cried a billion tearsFor what he never knew.Now man's reign is through.But throught eternal night,The twinkling of starlight,So very far away,Maybe it's only yesterday...

Supertramp
 
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I see that you're ruminating a bit as evening deepens on your side of the world.

That's good. We've too little of that from you at times. Doing so adds flourishes of humanity to the editorial machine you occasional assume as a mask.

God love ya'. I know I do.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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the editorial machine you occasional assume as a mask.

i know you are 'averse' to the above, but just to clarify (if at all it helps), i post the 'editorial columns' to trigger a 'dialouge' between the forum members - most times i fail but on a few occasions it has provided excellent discourse which to me is very important, otherwise IMO this forum by and large becomes a 'bitching contest' for indians and pakistanis.

i apologise if i have hurt any feelings - just being candid.
 
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"i apologise if i have hurt any feelings - just being candid."

Haven't hurt mine. Your candor is always appreciated in this corner.

:usflag::pakistan:Forever!

Can't speak for our countries but you've got my loyalty. Let's pray it extends beyond personal ties. Heaven help us all if it doesn't.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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You've an interesting view of bringing peace ………

My view is certainly interesting but your view remains deliberately distorted and, at best, utterly biased.

It is quite obvious that when you are face with an intellectual debate you can certainly press few buttons on your computer and you can even manage to google few things too….. A great feat …I must congratulate you for that. But that’s where, very unfortunately, the bravado ends.

Have you ever heard of something called “Timeline“ or “Perspective” … by reading your post it seems that these words does not exist in your dictionary. But quite unfortunately these two are the basic building blocks to understanding and furthering one‘s knowledge.


Anyway without further ado I shall get on with the answer.

So lets put your first reference in perspective.

Taliban killed few hundred Hazaras.

I regret the loss of life, be it a Hazara be it a Pashtun be it a Jew be it a Palestinian be it a Talib be it a NATO or US soldier.

But since you have brought up the Hazara’s massacre and proved that you can manage to search through google and yet have miserably failed to see it in perspective.

You have been very keen on lecturing us all that we should look at the drone attacks in perspective of 9/11 attacks and cross border terrorism in Afghanistan from Pakistan.

Why is it that you have totally missed on what Hazaras and Gen Pahlawan, Malik did to THREE THOUSEND Taliban that were betrayed and subsequently captured in Mazar-I-Sharif? And all that after having a firm operational agreement with Taliban for the help to oust Dostum from Mazar-I-Sharif in May 1997...

What did they do to THREE THOUSEND Taliban prisoners in Mazar-I-Sharif, Shiberghan and Maimana in May-June 1997?

Since you have, quite deliberately, missed on the point I will tell you that this is the single largest known massacre of prisoners by any of the parties in the Afghan conflict. This was the worst ever massacre in the history of Afghanistan and it took them weeks to systematically kill three thousand Taliban.

Read the following:


““One former Taliban driver who was taken into custody by forces allied with Malik gave this account:

"I am from Qandahar province [name of village withheld]. When we got to Shiberghan we established a base there, then moved into Mazar-i Sharif once fighting began between Malik and the Taliban. As the fighting esalated, I went with two of the mullahs to leave Mazar. We were moving toward the airport when we were attacked. They were killed. I was captured. Many senior Taliban were killed; others surrendered. Commander Zahir, who was with Malik, took us to a prison in Mazar. We were very crowded, we couldn’t move. There was little food. Sometimes we caught birds and ate them. Sometimes they beat us. They beat me on the genitals so severely, that I am impotent now. Some died from the beatings. The ICRC came and gave food sometimes. One night, men in military suits came and shouted at us, “who is from Qandahar?” They separated us. They said there was going to be a prisoner exchange. They took our pictures. They tied our hands and put us in a big container. The container I was in was full. We were kept in the container all day, until the next night. Some of the men inside died. They drove out of Mazar. Then the truck got stuck. They opened the door. We were in the desert. They took us out in groups of 30 at a time every ten minutes. They tied the prisoners together and shot them. We were still in the truck and we could see it through small holes in the container. When they shot them they revved the engine loudly. I was in the last group. I prayed to God. We resisted when they came for us but they pushed us outside. We stood in 3 lines, on in front of the other. When they started shooting I just fell down and others fell on top of me. Then I heard someone say let’s shoot each of them in the head. But I was under the others so they did not shoot me. Then they turned the car lights away to get the truck unstuck. When they were working on the truck I asked if anyone else was alive. There were three of us, but one was injured and we could not help him. When Malik’s men left two of us went to Tashkurghan and then to Kunduz. Mullah Dadaullah and Mullah Baradar [two senior commanders who were responsible for a number of massacres in 1998-2001, see below) were in Kunduz. Then we were sent to Qandahar.””


So if I go by your war mongering logics that you give us all the time that it is OK for USA to kill others as some of its citizens were killed in a terrorist attack…. so you should ravel in joy to see what Taliban did to Hazaras and Shumalis in response to above mentioned atrocities.

But you don’t … and the reason is that you are dishonest at worst and you are biased at best.

Here is the link to the rest of the document.

http://afghanistanjusticeproject.org/warcrimesandcrimesagainsthumanity19782001.pdf

Will you mind telling me that what did Hazara do to Taliban in Bamiyan after luring them into the valleys on a back of a promise of a safe passage to Kabul?

Why is it that each and every party hates Hazaras? has it nothing to do with Hazar’s utter barbaric behaviour with population under their control including their own Hazars that are from opposing factions?

Why is it that Amir Abdurahman more then 100 years ago virtually enslaved the whole Hazara population?

Big wide open mouth wouldn’t get anyone anywhere but knowing the Perspective will.


Nothing can be more testament to your dishonesty then how you replied to Taliban’s eradication of poppy cultivation in Afghanistan, now here the perspective has nothing to do with the fact that they stopped the poppy cultivation, if anything, it only goes to show that the practice of poppy cultivation was wide spread and Taliban were certainly making money from it and yet they decided to forgo the revenue and imposed the ban on poppy cultivation.

There was almost no poppy production in Afghanistan around October 2001 and in 2002 and onwards there has been bumper production of poppy…..

What happened between October 2001 and 2002? And is that thing that happened between October 2001 and 2002 not the reason from ZERO to the record poppy production?

Your reply is

Why Taliban not ban it earlier then 2001.…..
That is not what i asked … and even if they had banned it right away US invasion would still have resulted in current levels of production.

Then you say….
What about the poor farmers……

I again say I haven’t asked about that either…

But of course you will say whatever it takes to dodge the fact that if USA had not attacked Afghanistan today there would have been no heroin in this world. Irony is that the so called coalition used drugs as one of a primes to invasion of Afghanistan…….. Bravo

Now finally coming to Bin laden

The taliban's involvement reaches far beyond 9/11. They'd offered safe haven to a man wanted for attacks on American facilities in Yemen, Dar-es-salaam and Nairobi well before 9/11 …

So your point is that CIA and FBI knew Al-Qaeda was involved …. They asked Taliban to hand him over… Taliban delayed the handover…. War Mongers jumped to the war in less then 8 weeks after 9/11.…

If such is the case then will you be kind enough to tell that why did CIA not do anything when Bin Laden was in Dubai having dialysis just months before 9/11?


Why CIA agents were paying him visits yet they did not arest him?

I know what you will shout while burying your head in sand

“Urban Myths…. Urban Myths….. Urban Myths”


Let me give you source of the Urban Myth


La Figaro reports and I quote

“Dubai, … was the backdrop of a secret meeting between Osama bin Laden and the local CIA agent in July. A partner of the administration of the American Hospital in Dubai claims that public enemy number one stayed at this hospital between the 4th and 14th of July.

Having taken off from the Quetta airport in Pakistan, bin Laden was transferred to the hospital upon his arrival at Dubai airport. He was accompanied by his personal physician and faithful lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahari, four bodyguards, as well as a male Algerian nurse, and admitted to the American Hospital, a glass and marble building situated between the Al-Garhoud and Al-Maktoum bridges.

Each floor of the hospital has two "VIP" suites and fifteen rooms. The Saudi billionnaire was admitted to the well-respected urology department run by Teerry Callaway, gallstone and infertility specialist. Dr Callaway declined to respond to our questions despite several phone calls……

……..While he was hospitalised, bin Laden received visits from many members of his family as well as prominent Saudis and Emiratis. During the hospital stay, the local CIA agent, known to many in Dubai, was seen taking the main elevator of the hospital to go to bin Laden's hospital room.

A few days later, the CIA man bragged to a few friends about having visited bin Laden. Authorised sources say that on July 15th,
the day after bin Laden returned to Quetta, the CIA agent was called back to headquarters….

….In the pursuit of its investigations, the FBI discovered "financing agreements" that the CIA had been developing with its "arab friends" for years. The Dubai meeting is then within the logic of "a certain American policy".


Here is the link to the above “Urban Myth”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html

If this Urban Myth is not pleasing enough then let me show you another example of the urban Myths, this one comes straight out of your White House,

You said that Bin Ladin’s guilt was all known to CIA and FBI

Your ex-president claims otherwise.

Specially watch @50 seconds
Clinton says “CIA and FBI could not certify that Al Qaeda was responsible…..”

Is that Urban Myth is not entertaining enough? read the following,

In his book, Dereliction of Duty, Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson, chief military aide to President Clinton writes and I quote,

"The White House Situation Room was buzzing. It was fall 1998 and the National Security Council (NSC) and the 'intelligence community' were tracking the wehereabout of Osama bin Laden, the shadowy mastermind of terrorist attacks on American targets overseas. 'They successfully triangulated his location,' yelled a 'Sit Room' watch stand. 'We've got him.' Beneath the West Wing of the White House, behind a vaulted steel door, the Sit Room staff sprang into action. The watch officer notified National Security Advisor Sandy Berger, 'Sir, we've located bin Laden. We have a two-hour window to strike'. Characteristic of the Clinton administration, the weapons of choice would be Tomahawk missiles. After several attempts to first locate President Clinton to receive permission to get Osama bin Laden, President Clinton was nowhere to be found. When the President finally accepted Berger's call, there was discussion, there were pauses -- and no decision. 'We studied the issue until it was too late -- the window of opportunity closed'."


USA had the chances they missed it one after the other…… and yet they wanted Taliban to comply without a let and hinder …… if you think someone needs to be bombed then it should be CIA and FBI not the poor population of Afghanistan or poor civilians of Pakistani tribal area.

So the USA decided to attack Afghanistan cause Taliban had delayed in compliance but then what happened after they started the war?


The US now said it was "in no hurry" to catch bin Laden.

"The Pentagon is in no hurry to try to catch or kill Osama bin Laden as it orchestrates a step-by-step bombing campaign over Afghanistan." ("Pentagon Will Not Rush Manhunt," Washington Times, October 9, 2001.)

But just a few weeks before the US DEMANDED that the Taliban hand bin Laden over or the US would take military action . . . . The refusal of the Taliban to hand bin Laden over without evidence or judicial procedure was the causa belli of the military strikes…………….

Recall that the US is accusing bin Laden of masterminding the slaughter of approximately 3000 Americans, and has said that he is the brains and the money behind the Taliban. If those statements are true, capturing him should be the first priority. Indeed, by October 11, the FBI warns US that over the next several days, they should be aware of new terrorist attacks, which would of course be directed by the pesky Bin Laden.

The Senate and the House of Representatives pass a draconian bill, allowing suspension of YOUR rights, but, remember: "The Pentagon is in no hurry to try to catch or kill Osama bin Laden . . . "

"YOUR" is in bold, italic, underlined and in caps...... so read it

On October 14, CNN.com reported President Bush again refused an offer by the Taliban to surrender bin Laden to a third country if the US would produce evidence of his complicity in Operation 911. ("Afghanistan pounded in second week of air strikes.")

No, capturing or otherwise placing Osama bin-Laden in custody would spoil the fun. It's better to have bin Fake-it on the loose, mouthing the words written by the NWO psyops team.

And at the end they came up with this video, the smoking gun……

In fact it was nothing more then more smoke in the smoke screen that has been erected for the gullible, far detached from ground reality and media centric western population.


Try to come up with better sources please…don’t insults my intelligence by
Referring to bogus videos….

If you want me to give you the source I suggest that u just type Bin Ladin’s bogus video ….

This video and many more that were released after 2001 were discredited and dubbed as fake by USA’s own experts….


Finally bringing you to you non ending RANT about

40+ countries coalition …
UN resolution….
Afghanistan inviting USA… etc


USA and UK could do the job so why get 40+ countries into the war ????

It is just to give some legitimacy to your unholy and illegal war. If you look at the numbers committed by many countries then you will see that almost 90% of countries has not send a fighting force to Afghanistan. So if this is the case then what are they doing there…..?

They are just there to give weight and legitimacy to USA illegal endeavours.. So USA is not seen involved in wars alone all over the world…..

Urban Myth …..?

Listen to what John Carry has to say about your “GRAND COALITION“…..


So if you scratch under this shining veneer of you argument you will find….. Nothing.. Yes Nothing .. Cause it is a hollow argument with no legs to stand on.

But what do u care you can carry on ranting it like a broken record and the more lie you tell the more real it might sound to some moron.

But since I see many members here has rebuked you for treating them as morons so you might as well lay off this RANT….

Now about UN resolution …..

I suggest that just stop lying to us through your teeth.

There was no UN resolution that was passed before USA attacked Afghanistan that allowed the military use before they attacked the Afghanistan.

Reaffirming its previous resolutions on Afghanistan, in particular resolutions 1267 (1999) of 15 October 1999, 1333 (2000) of 19 December 2000 and 1363 (2001) of 30 July 2001, Supporting international efforts to root out terrorism, in keeping with the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming also its resolutions 1368 (2001) of 12 September 2001 and 1373 (2001) of 28 September 2001. None of above mentioned resolution agreed upon the use of military intervention.

It was only on 20 December, the Security Council, by resolution 1386 (2001), authorized the establishment of an International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to help the Authority maintain security in Kabul and its surrounding areas. But by then USA and UK had already attacked Afghanistan.

Again don’t take us for fools… cause we are not.

Now your claim that USA was invited into Afghanistan….

May I ask you who invited you to Afghanistan…?

You don’t accept Taliban as legitimate repetitive government of Afg so it leaves out Rabani … right?

So if USA invaded Afghanistan on the back on Rabbani’s invitation then why on 22 December, in Kabul, the “internationally recognized administration” of Rabbani handed power to the new Interim Afghan Administration, established in Bonn and headed by Chairman Hamid Karzai.

Why would USA show such an immediate lack of trust in someone on whose invitation they have just invaded a country AGAINST THE WILL OF WHOLE WORLD.???????????



Its about time you shut your “bullsh!t”
 
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Ah... the facade of genteel scholarship falls away to reveal the face of the contorted rant-driven pseudo-scholar.

At a minimum, I expected more coherence to your reply. Certainly not a soap-box rant distilling off into a page long diatribe and counter-claims.

I provide linked data from the U.N.O.D.C. and HRW.

You provide...videos and passages from unattributed sources.

You waste my time. I can and have received better from adolescents here. That's saying very little, btw. You've managed to say less.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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"Peeps" is slang for "people"...

With the "peeve" in the sentence, a bit of rhyming and a bit of alliteration to achieve "effect" :cool:
 
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Gates in Pakistan to Discuss New Strikes on Taliban

Jan. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates is to discuss with Pakistani leaders whether their army might begin an offensive against Pakistan-based Taliban who attack U.S. troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

Gates, in his first visit for almost three years, signaled he’ll encourage Pakistan to extend the fight against the Taliban and al-Qaeda after what he called its “very successful military operations” that have broken up a major Taliban haven in the tribal region of South Waziristan. A Pakistani army spokesman said any new offensive is probably at least six months off.

“We have heard about plans to move into” North Waziristan later this year, Gates told reporters today aboard his plane from New Delhi, where he spent two days meeting Indian leaders. “I’d like to explore those with them.”

Pakistan’s army entered South Waziristan in October, ousting Taliban of the Mehsud tribe, which the government blamed for 80 percent of terrorist attacks in the country. In North Waziristan, a Taliban faction headed by commander Jalaluddin Haqqani fights NATO troops in Afghanistan.

No new offensive is imminent, said Pakistan’s military spokesman, Major General Athar Abbas. “We want to stabilize and consolidate the operations that we have embarked on before taking on new ones,” Abbas told reporters in Islamabad, the capital. “I think we are talking about six months to a year,” before Pakistan would begin any new operation, he said.

Helicopters Sought

Abbas said Pakistan needs more transport and attack helicopters and surveillance equipment to aid its fight.

Pakistan’s willingness and ability to control militants targeting India also is pivotal for regional stability. Gates said he might ask the government “if there are some ways that they have in mind that will help lessen” tensions.

India snapped peace talks with Pakistan after the November 2008 attacks on Mumbai by 10 Pakistani gunmen India says belonged to the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group. Both countries have nuclear weapons.

Gates said yesterday in New Delhi that Islamists working under “the umbrella of al-Qaeda” want to destabilize the entire South Asian region by provoking a conflict between India and Pakistan.

Pakistan and India have fought three wars and smaller conflicts since independence from British rule in 1947.

U.S. Assistance

In a sign of its long-term commitment, Gates said the U.S. is working on a new “multi-year military funding program” for Pakistan, without giving further details. Last year, Congress and President Barack Obama approved a bill to provide $1.5 billion a year in economic aid to the country.

That law requires a cutoff of aid if Pakistan fails to provide civilian control of its military, cooperate with the U.S. on counter-terrorism, protect its nuclear arsenal and enforce international nuclear non-proliferation rules. Those conditions triggered accusations from opposition politicians and Pakistan’s military of interference in the country’s internal affairs.

Such conditions on U.S. aid evoke bitter memories in Pakistan of the 1990s, when the so-called Pressler amendment forced a halt to most U.S. aid because of evidence that Pakistan was developing nuclear weapons. The cutoff in U.S. military aid hampered American efforts to influence Pakistan’s powerful armed forces, and led many Pakistani leaders to call the U.S. an unreliable ally.

Anti-Americanism

Anti-Americanism is another topic on Gates’ radar. The U.S. is concerned about visa restrictions for U.S. officials visiting the country and the harassment of Americans, Gates said.

The U.S. Embassy in Pakistan complained publicly on Jan. 7 that Pakistani authorities had harassed and detained embassy personnel in “contrived incidents” as they traveled around the country. Diplomats also have faced delays in approvals for visas and visa extensions, the Associated Press said.

Al-Qaeda leaders are believed to have holed up in ungoverned tribal areas along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border since the U.S. toppled the group’s Taliban protectors in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. Obama last year ordered 30,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan to battle the Taliban insurgency.

Gates arrived in Pakistan for his first trip since February 2007 as the government reached an agreement to hand back responsibility for maintaining order in the longtime Taliban stronghold of South Waziristan to tribal leaders after a three- month military offensive.

Security Pact

Elders from the Mehsud tribe, which dominates the area, endorsed a government proposal yesterday with a unanimous show of hands at a gathering in Tank, the tribal agency’s winter capital. The two sides plan to sign the agreement on Feb. 10, a pact that may also pave the way for an eventual military withdrawal.

U.S. officials have criticized such deals in the past, saying they haven’t been effective in ending violence or turning back the advance of militant extremism. Gates said he had not heard about yesterday’s accord.

The U.S. is trying to balance its rapidly expanding ties with India, the world’s largest democracy and the fastest- growing economy after China, even as the Obama administration strengthens links with Pakistan.

To contact the reporter on this story: Viola Gienger in Islamabad via vgienger@bloomberg.net .
 
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