owais.usmani
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Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)
- Thread starter ejaz007
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AgNoStIc MuSliM
I beg to disagree that State is a non-entity. State of Pakistan is the greatest moral authority and the raison d eter for our existence. Fortunately the State was founded by the great visionary Quaid-e-Azam; our present crop of wet eyed limp leadership have nothing to do with it.
So, again, do you recognize the authority of the State/Government and authorized institutions (LEA's and Military), in our case democratically elected, to take actions as they deem fit to safeguard the lives, property and freedom of its citizens?
If I put my blinkers on, and just focus on the validity of the above sentence, the Answer is a resounding YES.
BUT in the specific context of Waziristan, its a resounding NO for the following reasons:
1. This operation does not in any way safeguard the lives, property and freedom of the citizens of Pakistan, if you truly believe that FATA too is an integral part of Pakistan, and its people are citizens of Pakistan too. Mass exodus of 100,000 people, about 30% of the population does not equate to Safety of the people. In case of Swat it was almost 70% of the population (2.5 million). Dont tell me they ran away from Taliban, exodus begins as the operation was launched.
2. This operation primarily aimed at Scoring with the US / NATO, and to prove that we are doing much more than anybody else. Per se there is no national agenda. Whereas the silent majority of Pakistanis abhor the use of armed forces on its soil, just look who are showering praises on us:
Gates encouraged by Pakistan push
DAWN Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
DAWN.COM | World | US defence secretary ?encouraged? by Pakistan push
Nato hails Pakistan offensive against Taliban
DAWN Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
DAWN.COM | World | Nato hails Pakistan offensive against Taliban
3. Just look who is paying for this operation.
US asked to expedite Coalition Support Fund payments
DAWN Monday, 19 Oct, 2009
ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Monday urged the United States to expedite the delayed payments of Coalition Support Fund claims and Foreign Military Funds to Pakistan at the current critical juncture when the government was engaged in military action in South Waziristan.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | US asked to expedite Coalition Support Fund payments
4. Any war operation results in a disproportionate number of civilian casualties. So called anti insurgency operations have a self perpetuating quality; innocent victims finally swell the ranks of the bad guys.
Displaced family hit by bomb; 12 dead
By Sailab Mehsud
DAWN: Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
LADDAH: Twelve members of a displaced family were killed when a bomb hit them in South Waziristan on Monday. The dead included women and children.
DAWN.COM | Provinces | Displaced family hit by bomb; 12 dead
5. Armed Forces are a National asset, sole purpose being the defense of national borders against external aggression. Whenever they are used for internal conflict resolution, the results are catastrophic. East Pakistan was a case in point. The Army scored victories against our Bangla citizens and the resultant wave of hatred paved the way for external aggression in a vulnerable moment. The murder of Sardar Akbar Bugti has spread hatred on a scale where Pakistani flag cannot be raised in select parts of Baluchistan. Swat may be shot with a tranquilizer dart (your opinion) but the cinders are still alive.
6. Gen Kiyani put it rather nicely Oh Mehsuds have been serving as Pakistan Army without pay. What we have of Azad Kashmir is attributable to the noble sacrifices of these guys, at a time when Pak Army chief General Gracey had refused Quaid-e-Azam point blank to get involved in Kashmir (he was reporting to Lord Mountbatten, the then Governor General of India).
The Government has neither the writ nor the moral Authority.
I beg to disagree that State is a non-entity. State of Pakistan is the greatest moral authority and the raison d eter for our existence. Fortunately the State was founded by the great visionary Quaid-e-Azam; our present crop of wet eyed limp leadership have nothing to do with it.
So, again, do you recognize the authority of the State/Government and authorized institutions (LEA's and Military), in our case democratically elected, to take actions as they deem fit to safeguard the lives, property and freedom of its citizens?
If I put my blinkers on, and just focus on the validity of the above sentence, the Answer is a resounding YES.
BUT in the specific context of Waziristan, its a resounding NO for the following reasons:
1. This operation does not in any way safeguard the lives, property and freedom of the citizens of Pakistan, if you truly believe that FATA too is an integral part of Pakistan, and its people are citizens of Pakistan too. Mass exodus of 100,000 people, about 30% of the population does not equate to Safety of the people. In case of Swat it was almost 70% of the population (2.5 million). Dont tell me they ran away from Taliban, exodus begins as the operation was launched.
2. This operation primarily aimed at Scoring with the US / NATO, and to prove that we are doing much more than anybody else. Per se there is no national agenda. Whereas the silent majority of Pakistanis abhor the use of armed forces on its soil, just look who are showering praises on us:
Gates encouraged by Pakistan push
DAWN Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
DAWN.COM | World | US defence secretary ?encouraged? by Pakistan push
Nato hails Pakistan offensive against Taliban
DAWN Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
DAWN.COM | World | Nato hails Pakistan offensive against Taliban
3. Just look who is paying for this operation.
US asked to expedite Coalition Support Fund payments
DAWN Monday, 19 Oct, 2009
ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Monday urged the United States to expedite the delayed payments of Coalition Support Fund claims and Foreign Military Funds to Pakistan at the current critical juncture when the government was engaged in military action in South Waziristan.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | US asked to expedite Coalition Support Fund payments
4. Any war operation results in a disproportionate number of civilian casualties. So called anti insurgency operations have a self perpetuating quality; innocent victims finally swell the ranks of the bad guys.
Displaced family hit by bomb; 12 dead
By Sailab Mehsud
DAWN: Tuesday, 20 Oct, 2009
LADDAH: Twelve members of a displaced family were killed when a bomb hit them in South Waziristan on Monday. The dead included women and children.
DAWN.COM | Provinces | Displaced family hit by bomb; 12 dead
5. Armed Forces are a National asset, sole purpose being the defense of national borders against external aggression. Whenever they are used for internal conflict resolution, the results are catastrophic. East Pakistan was a case in point. The Army scored victories against our Bangla citizens and the resultant wave of hatred paved the way for external aggression in a vulnerable moment. The murder of Sardar Akbar Bugti has spread hatred on a scale where Pakistani flag cannot be raised in select parts of Baluchistan. Swat may be shot with a tranquilizer dart (your opinion) but the cinders are still alive.
6. Gen Kiyani put it rather nicely Oh Mehsuds have been serving as Pakistan Army without pay. What we have of Azad Kashmir is attributable to the noble sacrifices of these guys, at a time when Pak Army chief General Gracey had refused Quaid-e-Azam point blank to get involved in Kashmir (he was reporting to Lord Mountbatten, the then Governor General of India).
The Government has neither the writ nor the moral Authority.
fatman17
but the point being made by Javed3 is that AQ Khan has moral authority!!! - how so when he was the "ring leader" of the proliferation business! - giving away state secrets for a handful of $$$!
First of all, is there anything intrinsically wrong with the Proliferation business? The first ever proliferator was the United States, helped Britain (officially) and Soviet Union (through leakages) and Israel (direct Technology Transfer) become Nuclear powers.
Indian Nuclear weapons program was aided by Israel in the early 80s as a counter against Pakistans Islamic Bomb (this phrase has since then gone out of fashion).
Who on earth Licensed the Nuclear Weapons design to Pakistan? Wasnt that through proliferation business? If you really should stand on a tall moral pedestal, then convince the Army to disband the nuclear program because it was acquired through proliferation.
Pakistan is never going to get a Civilian Nuclear deal like India even we had no weapons. That is US strategy to bring India into the fold of big-5 in the Security Council.
India being a predominantly Hindu State elected Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam as a token of gratitude for his sterling contributions. Just look what did we do to our National hero, who ensured our future against Indian Nuclear blackmail. Ask an average Pakistani on the street if he would like democratically elected Zardari with A Q Khan?
but the point being made by Javed3 is that AQ Khan has moral authority!!! - how so when he was the "ring leader" of the proliferation business! - giving away state secrets for a handful of $$$!
First of all, is there anything intrinsically wrong with the Proliferation business? The first ever proliferator was the United States, helped Britain (officially) and Soviet Union (through leakages) and Israel (direct Technology Transfer) become Nuclear powers.
Indian Nuclear weapons program was aided by Israel in the early 80s as a counter against Pakistans Islamic Bomb (this phrase has since then gone out of fashion).
Who on earth Licensed the Nuclear Weapons design to Pakistan? Wasnt that through proliferation business? If you really should stand on a tall moral pedestal, then convince the Army to disband the nuclear program because it was acquired through proliferation.
Pakistan is never going to get a Civilian Nuclear deal like India even we had no weapons. That is US strategy to bring India into the fold of big-5 in the Security Council.
India being a predominantly Hindu State elected Dr. A P J Abdul Kalam as a token of gratitude for his sterling contributions. Just look what did we do to our National hero, who ensured our future against Indian Nuclear blackmail. Ask an average Pakistani on the street if he would like democratically elected Zardari with A Q Khan?
fatman17
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whats done legally and illegally are two different things - and u cant make these comparisons as the circumstances for each country are/were different - AQKhan has himself admitted to his mistakes - also it was a lot many other scientists who have "contributed" albeit quietly more than our esteemed hero has. the issue with our hero is his over-bloated ego!!! ....and we are not talking about my moral high ground here (as i have already done so by resigning my army commission during zia's dark years) and yes i still support the army as the army is not "one-man".
Javed > You seem to have forgotten the Primal Writ of the State: 'Either you are with us or against us' Also called the Bush Doctrine
Welcome to Democracy Pakistan Style.
Our Think Tank Chief has just ducked your punch.
I do think AQ Khan will be elected overwhelmingly by your people with no runner up in sight.
Welcome to Democracy Pakistan Style.
Our Think Tank Chief has just ducked your punch.
I do think AQ Khan will be elected overwhelmingly by your people with no runner up in sight.
fatman17
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fatman17
““whats done legally and illegally are two different things - and u cant make these comparisons as the circumstances for each country are/were different - AQKhan has himself admitted to his mistakes””
Which law or jurisdiction are you referring to? Proliferation is illegal under the terms of Non proliferation treaty (NPT) to which Pakistan, India and Israel are not signatories. No law applies to proliferation of Nuclear weapons design by Israel to India, or the activities of our government, using A Q Khan as front.
“Confession” statements by Dr A Q Khan on TV was the most disgraceful episode orchestrated by Gen. Musharraf to score with the USA, to address their “concerns” on our Nukes and pave the way for the US to take control on a suitable occasion.
A Q Khan is not a politician, and so is supposed to be the largely ceremonial post of the President (sans 17th Amendment). In this hour of national strife we need a State Icon that commands universal respect and moral authority.
““whats done legally and illegally are two different things - and u cant make these comparisons as the circumstances for each country are/were different - AQKhan has himself admitted to his mistakes””
Which law or jurisdiction are you referring to? Proliferation is illegal under the terms of Non proliferation treaty (NPT) to which Pakistan, India and Israel are not signatories. No law applies to proliferation of Nuclear weapons design by Israel to India, or the activities of our government, using A Q Khan as front.
“Confession” statements by Dr A Q Khan on TV was the most disgraceful episode orchestrated by Gen. Musharraf to score with the USA, to address their “concerns” on our Nukes and pave the way for the US to take control on a suitable occasion.
A Q Khan is not a politician, and so is supposed to be the largely ceremonial post of the President (sans 17th Amendment). In this hour of national strife we need a State Icon that commands universal respect and moral authority.
SeaGull
“” Javed > You seem to have forgotten the Primal Writ of the State: 'Either you are with us or against us' Also called the Bush Doctrine””
Writ of the State ... YES anytime!. But writ of the Government ..... OK I am against you. You can do whatever you fancy.
“” Javed > You seem to have forgotten the Primal Writ of the State: 'Either you are with us or against us' Also called the Bush Doctrine””
Writ of the State ... YES anytime!. But writ of the Government ..... OK I am against you. You can do whatever you fancy.
fatman17
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“Confession” statements by Dr A Q Khan on TV was the most disgraceful episode orchestrated by Gen. Musharraf to score with the USA,
if AQKhan had any "morals/morality" he should have refused and faced the consequences!!! - then he would have been a "Hero to the Nation"
if AQKhan had any "morals/morality" he should have refused and faced the consequences!!! - then he would have been a "Hero to the Nation"
Last edited:
fatman17
“” if you r referring to AQKhan (which u r) - wrong again!!!””
Could be wrong, but certainly not for the reasons you stated. Justice Iftikhar Chaudry is another person with nearly universal acceptability.
By the way I am not referring to them for any ethnic, religious or racial prejudices. One is Urdu Speaking and the other is a Punjabi. They just command respect.
“” if you r referring to AQKhan (which u r) - wrong again!!!””
Could be wrong, but certainly not for the reasons you stated. Justice Iftikhar Chaudry is another person with nearly universal acceptability.
By the way I am not referring to them for any ethnic, religious or racial prejudices. One is Urdu Speaking and the other is a Punjabi. They just command respect.
fatman17
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already done friend!
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