Once home of the Calipha - Istanbul

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

The Ottoman Empire was in decline since the early 1700s and it had some weird notions about Islam and traditions. Ottoman sultans killed their brothers or jailed them til their official inthronisation (this made them mad because isolation makes you mad).

The Indian Muslims never recognized their caliphate, in facts Mughals were against the Ottomans. The Delhi Sultanate had a tiny Abbasid influence but that was it. Pakistanis are blind when it comes to Turkey (let's be honest we even love India more than Pakistan) and are their biggest fanboys.

@Indus Pakistan
Why are you so obsessed with mini skirts and alcohol drinking women? Are you into rap videos? My religion NEVER blocked me from becoming successful in life, in fact it was my main driver to make as much money and degrees as possible. Muslims need Muslim role models and not some random Raki addicts from Turkey.

WTF???????......................You MAY love india but we the Patriotic Pakistanis CERTAINLY don't............

 

[Iltutmish]

WTF???????...........You MAY love india but we the Patriotic Pakistanis CERTAINLY don't............

I was making a point: Pakistanis literally love every other nation more than their own. How do you explain the weird obsession with Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Chinese, Westerners and yes even Indians?

I whis Pakistanis would love their own country as much as they love Turkey or China!

Not all blind I would say, where people recognize that historical facts are being meddled with they speak up. See this video where it was shown that Shah Jahan bowed down to Turkish Sultan Murad, both Indians and Pakistanis are mad and defending Shah Jahan in the comments against Turkish misinformation.

Thanks for the link! My brother told me about it recently. As the top comment correctly states: RIP History...

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Interesting tour of Sultan Erdogan's Istanbul. After ruling for 20 years and with almost absolute power in the last 10 years we can see Dar al Islam. Reminds me of Peshawar, Islamabad and Lahore. Not Amsterdam or Berlin or Paris.

TRUTH be told, we Pakistanis are even more unIslamic than non-Muslims, forgot about Turks. Most Pakistanis don't even follow REAL Islam. They ONLY PRETEND to. Pakistanis being pious Muslims is an illusion. Look at how corrupt, immoral and unscrupulous Pakistanis are. Look at how we treat the poor and needy. That is NOT Islam.

 

[T-SaGe]

Let me teach you a little Turkish history:

1. Ataturk saved the honor, life, property and homeland of the Muslim Turkish people and prevented the silence of the prayers in our mosques with the end of the War of Independence, which he fought by implementing the principle of "jihad" of Islam against Christian Crusade imperialism.

2. He established the Directorate of Religious Affairs in order to carry out religious affairs and to prevent the abuse of religion from using religion by bigotary or english-payed so called Sheiks on the public. Rıfat Börekçi, the first President of Religious Affairs of our Republic, always stood by Atatürk, rebelled against the palace, was sentenced to death by the caliph sultan, was a patriotic, brave and intellectual person.

3. He saw the religion of Islam as the "national religion of the Turk", embraced Beloved Prophet(s.a.v.) and developed the Return to Self in Religion, which also includes these issues. In Turkish history, Atatürk is the only statesman who has worked seriously on the religion of Islam at an intellectual level last centuries.

4. Ataturk had been pioneering to translate and tasfir(interpretation) main source of the religion of Islam, Qur'an-ı Kerim, by the most reputable religious scholar at that time. He offered to paid all expenses with his personal money but Elmalılı Hamdi Hodja wanted this money to go to charities.

5. He had the Hadiths of Bukhari, one of the most reliable hadith sources, translated into Turkish in an understandable way. The title of the work is Kamil Miras translation. Understandable and simple Turkish studies are the most basic need for people to embrace Islam at that time, without any need to others.

6. He taught the Turkish Quran, Turkish sermon and adhan in mosques so that the Muslim Turkish people could understand and feel and turn towards God in a more heartfelt way and without the need for intermediaries. This was perhaps the only controversial reform. However, there can never be talk of malicious motives here. Atatürk was a leader who gave importance to the Turkish language and wanted his people to understand what they saying while praying or listening Khutbah. This reform was abolished in 1950 and religious practicing in the Arabic language was reverted.

7. Moving from the fact that Islam does not contain anything contrary to reason and science, it has placed "reason" and "science" at the foundation of the new Turkish state. He did not drift between in the conflict of religion and science, thinking that pure Islam is not an obstacle to reason and science, he acted from the formula that Muslim Turkey can also be a Modern Turkey. Atatürk said, “The Turkish nation should be more religious, only in all its simplicity. I believe Islam as I believe in the truth itself." He always drew attention to the relationship between religion and science such statements as: " The religion of Islam is a religion that is completely compatible with reason and logic. "

8. All concepts that were supposed to be necessary in the religion of Islam, but that emerged later, such as sultanate, caliphate, madrasahs, dervish lodges, fortune-telling, witchcraft, heathen-like practises, or wearing fez, all these institutions, concepts and objects have removed. All of these are aimed at helping people claim the essence of Islam and abandon superstitions.

9. By declaring the Republic, he transformed the state, which the Umayyad caliph Muawiya transformed into a sultanate centuries ago, back to its original essence & people's choice, centuries later.

10. With the principle of secularism, while separating religion and state affairs from each other, it prevented the abuse of religion and guaranteed freedom of religion.

11. For centuries, women, who have been left behind, restricted, suppressed for so-called "religious reasons" (but actually as a result of bigotry) have regained the dignity of human in a way that befits to their "maternity". The civil, social, cultural and political rights Atatürk gave to Muslim Turkish women are in all respects in accordance with the spirit of the religion of Islam.

12. With the War of Independence he won, he created a model of "independence" for the whole Islamic world, that was crushed under the feet of imperialism at that time, and during the Republic period, he established very good relations with the Islamic world and against the expansionist ambitions of countries such as Italy, Germany and Russia. The Sadabat Pact between Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq was one of the pionering model about Muslim world solidarity and it was Atatürk's foreign policy.

 

[عقاب]

I have heard that the writer of Famous Urtugrul serial could not find more histoey than 4 pages of Urtugrul life.
After reading 4 pages he engineered that serial

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

My question is clear. Leave the slogans, explain the your arguements with historical justifications. Here I will tell you about Atatürk's services to Islam.

Well yes

My question is clear. Leave the slogans, explain the your arguements with historical justifications. Here I will tell you about Atatürk's services to Islam.

You replied but didn't quote me bro??

Let me make this clear I am not someone who naively thinks that the Ottoman empire is going to magically reappear.

On the other hand yes Ataturk did in fact carry out harsh anti Islam actions. This is evidenced by Adnan Menderes. His party platform consisted of allowing the mosques to open again, allowing the azan in Arabic again(like it is in ALL other muslim countries and is the sunnah) and allowing some of the madrasas aka in Turkish imamhatips to reopen. There's also a tv series about this how people struggled to reopen the basics of Islamic institutions in Turkey.

The military saw this as being too extremist(when it is mere basics of Islam if I'm honest). And Menderes bey was subsequently executed and General Cemal Gürsel took over in 1960.

But this caused a greater schism which can still be seen till this day.

After 1960 there was a musical chairs of different Prime Ministers and during this period Turkey sank deeper and deeper into chaos, political and economic instability.

Then again in 1980 Gen Kenan Evren seized power reason same schism. And then again in 1990s(this time through a memorandum of sorts).

*[Then in 2016 again and I am 100% sure the military saw AKP as being too extreme in this instance too. But after the gross failure of the coup Gulen became the perfect scapegoat. This is my personal opinion. The official narrative is very different feel free to disagree]*

Do you see the pattern here?

I know and I understand very well that Turks live and breath Ataturk and can't live without him. But in my humble opinion there is no use chasing Ataturk's ghost.

Yes, what his harsh stance may have worked back then but it has caused so much harm. Turkey of today is very different from his times. You can have a balance between the secular and the traditional. Banning hijabs and bullying girls who wear it will not make Turkey a shining city on a shining hill.

Rest you know better how Turkey works.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I was making a point: Pakistanis literally love every other nation more than their own. How do you explain the weird obsession with Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Chinese, Westerners and yes even Indians?

I whis Pakistanis would love their own country as much as they love Turkey or China!


Thanks for the link! My brother told me about it recently. As the top comment correctly states: RIP History...

I see you have a soft spot for gangus now. Obviously you are a Pakistani that is obsessed with india and gangu-varsha.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I have heard that the writer of Famous Urtugrul serial could not find more histoey than 4 pages of Urtugrul life.
After reading 4 pages he engineered that serial

He did a great job then

 

[عقاب]

At a theoretical level no as Islam is supposed to be a universal religion and for all times. But nothing in life exists in a vacuam. Depending on how Islam is interpreted it often can equal to Arab culture. For instance the whole thing about dates and even basing events on moon sighting is very Arab influenced as are many other precepts. For instance if you happen to have lived in Norway the chance of opening your fast with dates or seeing the moon are limited for obvious reasons.

The Islam that evolved in Balkans and Anatolia or what are today Bosnia and Turkey are not same as what you see in Tataristan or in Oman or Somalia or even in Egypt. For instance in Egypt they practice female mutilation. Those are cultural aspects that have seeped in. For those of you who have read Allama Iqbals "Recomstruction of Religious Thought in Islam" he states clearly Islam needs to be cleaned of Arabic cultutal practices.

ذرا سی بات تھی اندیشہ عجم نے اسے
بڑھا دیا ہے فقط زیبِ داستاں کے لیے

He did a great job then

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Another mistake the leftist Turk state of the time made was outlawing Kurds to identify as a Kurd and making them call themselves Turk. Yes from a national integration perspective it make sense.

But it opened a much bigger Pandora's box in form of PKK. That Turks are still fighting today.

For example if I said that I don't want the urdu speak/hindustanis/Karachiwalas can't call themselves those names. I would be banned and dragged through the mud on PDF. Or if I said the Balochis cannot call themselves Balochis only Pakistanis. Then probably all of Balochistan would go and join BLA or something.

 

[fitpOsitive]

@Indus Pakistan
is culture of Islam equal to culture of Arab tribes?

Certainly not. Taking it like that is the biggest mistake.

 

[عقاب]

Yep. Wondering what all the buzz is about Ertugrul Ghazi I watched a clip on youtube. That triggered off suggestions of other similiar Turkish content by Googles algorithm. Reading some of the comments was a expose in the retarded, religious addlled brain dead Pakistani's. The laugh was reading comments about Turkish ladies and their dress codes by Pakistanis. The leading lady who plays Ertugruls wife Halime Sultan was being bombarded with questions about her lifestyle etc.

Then seeing the reaction of the Turks was lesson in social studies. I think the Pakistani's sttruggle to accept that Turks are white, European and secularized people. It's a laugh seeing the two cultures collide under while the song "Turk-Pak" dosti is playing in the background.

Or the reality that even in 2021 Ataturk is almost a god in Turkey. You are brave to even be slightly critical of him.
I have been to Istanbul. The most conservative areas of Turkey would be regarded as libetards even by posh Lahore standards. I have been to Lahore. Would like to see bunch of skirt wearing women sat on cafe outside drinking alcohol.

There was a group of turkish girls who studied at UOL lahore in english department,
I guarantee you that I have never seen more humble and modest girls in thier looks and personality in the entire university, leave pakistanis


I have been to turkey, I have witnessed what you have said
They are tolerant when it comes to liberal values and yes most turkish modern people likes to follow west more than the westerns themselves

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Let me teach you a little Turkish history:

1. Ataturk saved the honor, life, property and homeland of the Muslim Turkish people and prevented the silence of the prayers in our mosques with the end of the War of Independence, which he fought by implementing the principle of "jihad" of Islam against Christian Crusade imperialism.

2. He established the Directorate of Religious Affairs in order to carry out religious affairs and to prevent the abuse of religion from using religion by bigotary or english-payed so called Sheiks on the public. Rıfat Börekçi, the first President of Religious Affairs of our Republic, always stood by Atatürk, rebelled against the palace, was sentenced to death by the caliph sultan, was a patriotic, brave and intellectual person.

3. He saw the religion of Islam as the "national religion of the Turk", embraced Beloved Prophet(s.a.v.) and developed the Return to Self in Religion, which also includes these issues. In Turkish history, Atatürk is the only statesman who has worked seriously on the religion of Islam at an intellectual level last centuries.

4. Ataturk had been pioneering to translate and tasfir(interpretation) main source of the religion of Islam, Qur'an-ı Kerim, by the most reputable religious scholar at that time. He offered to paid all expenses with his personal money but Elmalılı Hamdi Hodja wanted this money to go to charities.

5. He had the Hadiths of Bukhari, one of the most reliable hadith sources, translated into Turkish in an understandable way. The title of the work is Kamil Miras translation. Understandable and simple Turkish studies are the most basic need for people to embrace Islam at that time, without any need to others.

6. He taught the Turkish Quran, Turkish sermon and adhan in mosques so that the Muslim Turkish people could understand and feel and turn towards God in a more heartfelt way and without the need for intermediaries. This was perhaps the only controversial reform. However, there can never be talk of malicious motives here. Atatürk was a leader who gave importance to the Turkish language and wanted his people to understand what they saying while praying or listening Khutbah. This reform was abolished in 1950 and religious practicing in the Arabic language was reverted.

7. Moving from the fact that Islam does not contain anything contrary to reason and science, it has placed "reason" and "science" at the foundation of the new Turkish state. He did not drift between in the conflict of religion and science, thinking that pure Islam is not an obstacle to reason and science, he acted from the formula that Muslim Turkey can also be a Modern Turkey. Atatürk said, “The Turkish nation should be more religious, only in all its simplicity. I believe Islam as I believe in the truth itself." He always drew attention to the relationship between religion and science such statements as: " The religion of Islam is a religion that is completely compatible with reason and logic. "

8. All concepts that were supposed to be necessary in the religion of Islam, but that emerged later, such as sultanate, caliphate, madrasahs, dervish lodges, fortune-telling, witchcraft, heathen-like practises, or wearing fez, all these institutions, concepts and objects have removed. All of these are aimed at helping people claim the essence of Islam and abandon superstitions.

9. By declaring the Republic, he transformed the state, which the Umayyad caliph Muawiya transformed into a sultanate centuries ago, back to its original essence & people's choice, centuries later.

10. With the principle of secularism, while separating religion and state affairs from each other, it prevented the abuse of religion and guaranteed freedom of religion.

11. For centuries, women, who have been left behind, restricted, suppressed for so-called "religious reasons" (but actually as a result of bigotry) have regained the dignity of human in a way that befits to their "maternity". The civil, social, cultural and political rights Atatürk gave to Muslim Turkish women are in all respects in accordance with the spirit of the religion of Islam.

12. With the War of Independence he won, he created a model of "independence" for the whole Islamic world, that was crushed under the feet of imperialism at that time, and during the Republic period, he established very good relations with the Islamic world and against the expansionist ambitions of countries such as Italy, Germany and Russia. The Sadabat Pact between Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq was one of the pionering model about Muslim world solidarity and it was Atatürk's foreign policy.

You did a good job summarizing these things. But I just don't understand the bit about not wearing fez. Wear the fedora or be executed don't make sense bro.


I could be a rocket scientist but still sport a fez. Jus sayin.

On a side not I think reddit Turks might disagree with this Nimazi, virtuous version of Atatürk lol . But reddit is totally different to what we're discussing hehe .

Certainly not. Taking it like that is the biggest mistake.

O bhai wo konsa genuinely argue kar rha hai. He is arguing for chaska.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

1. Ataturk saved the honor, life, property and homeland of the Muslim Turkish people and prevented the silence of the prayers in our mosques with the end of the War of Independence, which he fought by implementing the principle of "jihad" of Islam against Christian Crusade imperialism.

Bro so many other Pashas, war lords, tribal leaders etc were fighting with him for exact same reasons. To protect honor of Turks, other muslim ethnics and minorities. But they were not in favor of his harsh "modernisation" steps he took. That's why a good chunk of them were blacklisted and erased from history and curriculum.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Well yes

You replied but didn't quote me bro??

Let me make this clear I am not someone who naively thinks that the Ottoman empire is going to magically reappear.

On the other hand yes Ataturk did in fact carry out harsh anti Islam actions. This is evidenced by Adnan Menderes. His party platform consisted of allowing the mosques to open again, allowing the azan in Arabic again(like it is in ALL other muslim countries and is the sunnah) and allowing some of the madrasas aka in Turkish imamhatips to reopen. There's also a tv series about this how people struggled to reopen the basics of Islamic institutions in Turkey.

The military saw this as being too extremist(when it is mere basics of Islam if I'm honest). And Menderes bey was subsequently executed and General Cemal Gürsel took over in 1960.

But this caused a greater schism which can still be seen till this day.

After 1960 there was a musical chairs of different Prime Ministers and during this period Turkey sank deeper and deeper into chaos, political and economic instability.

Then again in 1980 Gen Kenan Evren seized power reason same schism. And then again in 1990s(this time through a memorandum of sorts).

*[Then in 2016 again and I am 100% sure the military saw AKP as being too extreme in this instance too. But after the gross failure of the coup Gulen became the perfect scapegoat. This is my personal opinion. The official narrative is very different feel free to disagree]*

Do you see the pattern here?

I know and I understand very well that Turks live and breath Ataturk and can't live without him. But in my humble opinion there is no use chasing Ataturk's ghost.

Yes, what his harsh stance may have worked back then but it has caused so much harm. Turkey of today is very different from his times. You can have a balance between the secular and the traditional. Banning hijabs and bullying girls who wear it will not make Turkey a shining city on a shining hill.

Rest you know better how Turkey works.

Bro so many other Pashas, war lords, tribal leaders etc were fighting with him for exact same reasons. To protect honor of Turks, other muslim ethnics and minorities. But they were not in favor of his harsh "modernisation" steps he took. That's why a good chunk of them were blacklisted and erased from history and curriculum.

If you do not modernise, progress and develop then there is a risk you will become poor and backward like us Pakistanis. Ataturk could see this, which is WHY he modernised Turkey. He did what was NECESSARY to make Turkey developed, wealthy, advanced and prosperous. There is a REASON why millions of Pakistanis immigrate to Westernised, modern, developed nations.