Officially becoming a secular liberal person

[Contrarian]

And what research? Please post it for all to see your claims!

Let me ask some questions of you again.
1.Can a Muslim leave Islam and convert to another faith in a Sharia state?
2. Will a girl be punished by the State for having premarital sex in a Sharia state?

 

[Dubious]

Let me ask some questions of you again.
1.Can a Muslim leave Islam and convert to another faith in a Sharia state?
2. Will a girl be punished by the State for having premarital sex in a Sharia state?

1 yes but needs to choose 1 of the 2 : leave the state or face some punishment....I have not read the details of the punishment but usually it is to leave the state so one can see what they left...

2 if proven yes

 

[Contrarian]

1 yes but needs to choose 1 of the 2 : leave the state or face some punishment....I have not read the details of the punishment but usually it is to leave the state so one can see what they left...

Exactly. Why should a State punish its citizen because of his personal belief. That particular citizen might have his spiritual fulfillment with some other faith. What right does a state have to dictate which religion a citizen can or can not follow.

2 if proven yes

Again, I may choose to not marry till 50 years, what right does the State have

Both these attributes are nothing but fascism.

 

[Dubious]

5. Does Shariah really prescribe harsh punishments like stoning adulterers?
Yes, but many of these punishments have been taken out of context, abrogated, or require a near-impossible level of evidence to be carried out. For someone to be convicted of adultery, for example, there must be four witnesses to the act, which is rare. The Quran also prescribes amputating the hands of thieves, but (and this is often forgotten or unmentioned) not if the thief has repented.

Other Shariah scholars say such a punishment system can only be instituted in a society of high moral standards and where everyone’s needs are met (thereby obviating the urge to steal or commit other crimes). In such a society, the thinking goes, corporal punishments would be rarely needed.

That said, corporal punishments have been used by Islamic militant groups in places like Afghanistan, Somalia, and Syria, and governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Aceh state in Indonesia and elsewhere.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I have personally met Mokhtar Maghroui, the Algerian gentleman, in North America, a couple of times, and attended many of his lectures. He had to come to Canada to escape purge in the US. I have also met his business partner, Ninowy, and their Madina Institute in Atlanta.

Mokhtar Maghroui has changed over the past 7 years. His version of Sufism was more of an ikhwani background. He had typical wahabi beliefs like insulting Imam Hasan Basri RA and denying his spiritual inheritance of Moula Ali AS. But, seeing the fervour against wahabism in the US, and the market for Sufism, he has changed camps.

I have met him a few times. The last being in 1999. So you may well be right brother. The struggle to plant Islam in North America with the unique context of that continent is bound to be difficult and even hap-hazard. In my experience, Muslim activism in North America had a strong JI / Ikhwan tinge. ISNA was more of a social club, while ICNA people (mostly JI related Pakistanis) were more action oriented. So, one can excuse a certain flavor as being a symptom or stage of evolution in a changing scenario.

I never said that Dr. Mukhtar Al Maghraoui was a Sufi. He had a good grasp of concepts, but if asked, he would not own Sufism as a strong part of his identity. His identity was that of a scholar / activist. However, I could sense the Sufi principles at work while I conversed with him a few times. I can not say that he was a Wahabi, I can not think of anything he said that could be attributed towards that.

I can not say of his opinion about Hazrat Imam Hasan Basri RA. But I am very surprised. Perhaps he is not convinced that Imam Hasan Basri RA actually met Hazrat Ali? One can understand a scholar refusing to take something as fact without supporting evidence. In any case, this is a side issue altogether and not one that determines whether or not one is a Wahabi.

In truth, North America requires a Sufi touch. So, Dr. sahib is right in his current direction.

 

[he-man]

Exactly. Why should a State punish its citizen because of his personal belief. That particular citizen might have his spiritual fulfillment with some other faith. What right does a state have to dictate which religion a citizen can or can not follow.


Again, I may choose to not marry till 50 years, what right does the State have

Both these attributes are nothing but fascism.

all religions started conservatively but others have changed according to times except islam.

the problem is its mandatory to read quran 5 times a day in islam and as long as u do it,there will be no reform in muslim world,thats about as clear as i can put it here

 

[Dubious]

Exactly. Why should a State punish its citizen because of his personal belief. That particular citizen might have his spiritual fulfillment with some other faith. What right does a state have to dictate which religion a citizen can or can not follow.

This is a little disputed but that is the answer I know still searching for what others say about it...

Again, I may choose to not marry till 50 years, what right does the State have

Both these attributes are nothing but fascism.

lolz when does shariah say you have to marry before 50..thats your choice! Are you just throwing in rubbish now?

 

[he-man]

5. Does Shariah really prescribe harsh punishments like stoning adulterers?
Yes, but many of these punishments have been taken out of context, abrogated, or require a near-impossible level of evidence to be carried out. For someone to be convicted of adultery, for example, there must be four witnesses to the act, which is rare. The Quran also prescribes amputating the hands of thieves, but (and this is often forgotten or unmentioned) not if the thief has repented.

Other Shariah scholars say such a punishment system can only be instituted in a society of high moral standards and where everyone’s needs are met (thereby obviating the urge to steal or commit other crimes). In such a society, the thinking goes, corporal punishments would be rarely needed.

That said, corporal punishments have been used by Islamic militant groups in places like Afghanistan, Somalia, and Syria, and governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Aceh state in Indonesia and elsewhere.

it is an old and medevial law,,,times have changed and so should laws.

 

[Dubious]

all religions started conservatively but others have changed according to times except islam.

the problem is its mandatory to read quran 5 times a day in islam and as long as u do it,there will be no reform in muslim world,thats about as clear as i can put it here

huh? where did you pick this from?

After joining PDF I have realized there are really weird Mullahs in India and I am sure all the Mullahs we have in Pakistan are Indian by nature...Since they think remarkably alike when it comes to BS!

it is an old and medevial law,,,times have changed and so should laws.

Thats your thinking....

Just like once upon a time wearing a mini skirt was frawned upon but showing your belly in sari was fine

Once upon a time wife swapping was disgusting and now it is an acceptable art called swingging what next? Acceptance of selling daughters?

 

[kaku1]

all religions started conservatively but others have changed according to times except islam.

the problem is its mandatory to read quran 5 times a day in islam and as long as u do it,there will be no reform in muslim world,thats about as clear as i can put it here

So, you saying other religion are not conservative.

Did you watched the movie Da Vinci Code & Angels and Demons

 

[he-man]

huh? where did you pick this from?

After joining PDF I have realized there are really weird Mullahs in India and I am sure all the Mullahs we have in Pakistan are Indian by nature...Since they think remarkably alike when it comes to BS!

it may not be written in stone but nevertheless practised widely.............my point would stand even if u are reading it just once daily.

the point was u will be uber religious for life and thats the root cause of problem

So, you saying other religion are not conservative.

Did you watched the movie Da Vinci Code & Angels and Demons

yup i have seen the movies.
tom hanks is my favourite actor,u should watch road to perdition and cloud atlas too.

coming to topic are u comparing islam to hinduism /christianism on the level of freedoms accorded??

 

[Indischer]

@qamar1990 On a serious note, I've always felt that you and @DESERT FIGHTER are reasonable folk who've deliberately tried to rile up a few Indians here. You can't turn liberal and secular unless you have a natural predisposition towards it, borne by good grooming AND a balanced Worldview AND a certain ability to put yourself in the shoes of those less fortunate than you are. I'm sure you are way cooler men to interact with in real life.

 

[he-man]

huh? where did you pick this from?

After joining PDF I have realized there are really weird Mullahs in India and I am sure all the Mullahs we have in Pakistan are Indian by nature...Since they think remarkably alike when it comes to BS!


Thats your thinking....

Just like once upon a time wearing a mini skirt was frawned upon but showing your belly in sari was fine

Once upon a time wife swapping was disgusting and now it is an acceptable art called swingging what next? Acceptance of selling daughters?

ur point??
who should give a damn if 2 couples decide to swap without any pressure??
hell i don't care if u have an orgy as long as its consensual

 

[Dubious]

Let me ask some questions of you again.
1.Can a Muslim leave Islam and convert to another faith in a Sharia state?
2. Will a girl be punished by the State for having premarital sex in a Sharia state?

ok found a complete answer for part 1 that to from the Quran where repeteadly Quran tells Prophet he is only a Warner...If prophet was not even commended to kill no common man can claim it!


Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92

"And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'"

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief.

"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. (The Noble Quran, 10:100)" Allah Almighty helps those whom He likes to be guided to His Straight Path. If anyone doesn't believe, or reverts back from Islam, it is then his loss and it is the Will of Allah Almighty.

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.' (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)" Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say

: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is.

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

(The Noble Quran, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach.

"Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgement? Do what ye will: Verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 41:40)" Here we clearly see Allah Almighty giving a freedom of choice for people to choose or refuse Islam.

"And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (The Noble Quran, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam.

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance. (The Noble Quran, 28:56)"

Again, no authority to Prophet Muhammad over those who accept or reject Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256).

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.



The following was sent to me from "Vipor Poison"; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

"I found another verse in the Quran that dealt with apostates. Noble Verse 4:137 "Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way."

Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah.

I found many verses in the Quran that teach us NO PUNISHMENT for an apostate BUT I found no verse that says the contrary.

Here is another verse about the freedom of expression in the Quran. many translators translate this wrongly and kill the meaning of the word making it a bogus and strange statement. Noble Verse 39:18 "Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding."

The Quran tells the Muslims to listen to every thing and follow only the best of what is said. it does not tell them to kill people if they say something that is not according to the cultural norm."



The following two sets of Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Rached Blili; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

Let us look at Noble Verses 109:1-6 "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine."

Let us look at Noble Verse 42:15 "Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: 'I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.'"

The Noble Quran in all of the above Noble Verses is crystal clear about providing freedom of religion and choice to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims

 

[kaku1]

it may not be written in stone but nevertheless practised widely.............my point would stand even if u are reading it just once daily.

the point was u will be uber religious for life and thats the root cause of problem



yup i have seen the movies.
tom hanks is my favourite actor,u should watch road to perdition and cloud atlas too.

coming to topic are u comparing islam to hinduism /christianism on the level of freedoms accorded??

It is simply about perspective about bro?