No Where to Run For China, Part 1

[Genesis]

I did a debate in another thread, and I thought I would compile my thoughts into this thread and discuss the "trap" that China has fallen into with the US in regards to the South China Sea. I thought I would do a couple of different parts, to keep the post short.

A couple of points that are of interest to me in this topic are US and UK situation at the end of world war two is completely different to China and US in the twenty-first century.

At the end of World War two, Britain was devastated, it's country destroyed, losing most of its colonies including India, and worst of all, facing an enemy, that can steamroll the entire Western Europe with enough time left over for dinner, in the Soviet Union. It also helps that America was in the Britain's democratic western camp.

Today's China America dynamic is very different. America isn't so much in decline as China is on the rise. American power will remain the force for the foreseeable future and even should it not be the case, it will continue to be a force on the world stage. The same cannot be said for Britain.

Americans will not want to hand over the reigns, this is especially true since America has no country in its camp that can take over the reigns, with China being very much on its own side. Handing over the reigns to China is the equivalent of handing it to Soviet Russia, should they ever become stronger than America, or Soviets doing the same to America. Neither did, the Soviet Union just faded, which won't happen to America.

This makes the Sino American rivalry unavoidable, and regardless of whether there is a South China Sea, or not. China and America will face off. Anyone involved in the current dispute, that would argue otherwise needs to prove China and America are not going to face off anyways, and that South China Sea is the exclusive cause of China American tensions.

Regarding whether South China Sea is THE excuse for America, how the Chinese American conflict has already started, what it's doing to the geopolitics of the region and its implications, and the necessity of Chinese actions in the South China Sea, I will address in a later thread.

 

[Development C&P]

yep，the "Trap"

But also the "Opportunity"~

 

[DrawingDead]

I did a debate in another thread, and I thought I would compile my thoughts into this thread and discuss the "trap" that China has fallen into with the US in regards to the South China Sea. I thought I would do a couple of different parts, to keep the post short.

A couple of points that are of interest to me in this topic are US and UK situation at the end of world war two is completely different to China and US in the twenty-first century.

At the end of World War two, Britain was devastated, it's country destroyed, losing most of its colonies including India, and worst of all, facing an enemy, that can steamroll the entire Western Europe with enough time left over for dinner, in the Soviet Union. It also helps that America was in the Britain's democratic western camp.

Today's China America dynamic is very different. America isn't so much in decline as China is on the rise. American power will remain the force for the foreseeable future and even should it not be the case, it will continue to be a force on the world stage. The same cannot be said for Britain.

Americans will not want to hand over the reigns, this is especially true since America has no country in its camp that can take over the reigns, with China being very much on its own side. Handing over the reigns to China is the equivalent of handing it to Soviet Russia, should they ever become stronger than America, or Soviets doing the same to America. Neither did, the Soviet Union just faded, which won't happen to America.

This makes the Sino American rivalry unavoidable, and regardless of whether there is a South China Sea, or not. China and America will face off. Anyone involved in the current dispute, that would argue otherwise needs to prove China and America are not going to face off anyways, and that South China Sea is the exclusive cause of China American tensions.

Regarding whether South China Sea is THE excuse for America, how the Chinese American conflict has already started, what it's doing to the geopolitics of the region and its implications, and the necessity of Chinese actions in the South China Sea, I will address in a later thread.

The word you're looking for is "reins" not "reigns"

There is no "trap". There is, however, a genuine concern that you're unnecessarily rocking the boat. In this day and age when people aren't hopping on boats and going off to colonize far off lands "in the name of the Crown", you're trying to occupy little reefs in other countries' EEZ.

The US had already taken over as the world's largest economy after the FIRST world war and had supported Britain in its efforts during WW I and II. It wasn't like they allowed us or handed us the reins to anything. We were just heading in opposite directions.

States don't hand over the reins to other states. You take over because you are the most influential nation in the world. The Sino-American rivalry is unavoidable because these are the 2 of the largest economies in the world. However, what is very avoidable, is a military rivalry. But if the posters on PDF are anything to go by, China believes that might is right and that the Chinese are entitled to everything the any Chinese saw, touched or walked by. That really doesn't work for anyone else in today's world. The world has moved on in the century since Qing empire collapsed. You're not the Qings. You don't get to turn back the clock and claim everything that may or may not have been controlled by some empire at some point in history.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out. China is still less than 2/3 the economy with 4 times the population. Our GDP per capita is 7 times that of China. China is still working on getting its first Aircraft carrier into service, China is still working on its first stealth fighter. I'm sure I don't need to point out where we are with the same things. So maybe it would be a good idea to match us in at least a couple of these categories before worrying about "taking over the reins of the world" from us?

 

[Genesis]

There is no "trap". There is, however, a genuine concern that you're unnecessarily rocking the boat. In this day and age when people aren't hopping on boats and going off to colonize far off lands "in the name of the Crown", you're trying to occupy little reefs in other countries' EEZ.

Rocking the boat unnecessarily, I was going to address it later, but the proverbial boat has been rocked, since before our claims started to surface again.

One example is Taiwan, how would America react if someone stepped in and told Lincoln, the confederates must remain and any attempt on them is a declaration of war. Flying spy planes close to our coast, it's not illegal, if we are to accept American's definition, but it's not friendly. I could stand 2 inches away from some one and breath down their necks, it's not illegal, but I don't do it, because it's insane.

Before you say we can do the same, let's look at a field where we can, America has clearly defined cyber activities in relations to national security and not IP theft are normal and some what acceptable, and yet, we are hearing

Proof Obama administration did say it.
US Accuses Chinese Hackers in Latest Data Breach | The Diplomat

Yet we all heard the response, and America is actively defending its cyber security, in ways that we don't know. Before you say America is only shoring up your own defense, not infringing on other nation's rights.

10th Fleet’s the Charm? US Navy Looks to Beef Up Cyber Capabilities | The Diplomat

Keep in mind China is not building islands to launch attacks on South East Asia, and let's not pretend otherwise. It could do that, just like the American "defensive" abilities can easily be turned offensive, but according to both of us, neither of us is doing so, and our version is more convincing. Which is more likely, China conquering Philippines for kicks or America turning on it's "defensive" cyber warriors to attack.

Oh and your allies, Philippines and Taiwan also claims islands far outside of their EEZ. Look at the map again. Especially Taiwan who not only wants the entire SCS, but also Mongolia.

I accept American interests are for there for America, but I find that most Americans seems to assume China does things randomly.

The US had already taken over as the world's largest economy after the FIRST world war and had supported Britain in its efforts during WW I and II. It wasn't like they allowed us or handed us the reins to anything. We were just heading in opposite directions.

My point exactly, did you miss the point where I said America is not going away even after we pass you guys in GDP.

States don't hand over the reins to other states. You take over because you are the most influential nation in the world. The Sino-American rivalry is unavoidable because these are the 2 of the largest economies in the world. However, what is very avoidable, is a military rivalry. But if the posters on PDF are anything to go by, China believes that might is right and that the Chinese are entitled to everything the any Chinese saw, touched or walked by. That really doesn't work for anyone else in today's world. The world has moved on in the century since Qing empire collapsed. You're not the Qings. You don't get to turn back the clock and claim everything that may or may not have been controlled by some empire at some point in history.

We signed treaties with Pakistan to solve our dispute, we solved out dispute with Russia, done deal with Mongolia, though ROC still claims it. What's left.

Dispute with India, border left over from the British era, I mean even Pakistan and India still has dispute over border, and they were created by the British.

Taiwan, come on.

South China Sea, left over from 1947, again republic of China, if you want I can walk you through why we inherited those claims.

Japan, America handed the Diaoyu islands to Japan without inviting us OR ROC to the meeting of SF.

So tell me again, which ones were started by us, and not left over from previous governments or created by some foreign power who didn't even ask our opinion, when they knew full well what we thought, or at least ROC, an American ally thought.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out. China is still less than 2/3 the economy with 4 times the population. Our GDP per capita is 7 times that of China. China is still working on getting its first Aircraft carrier into service, China is still working on its first stealth fighter. I'm sure I don't need to point out where we are with the same things. So maybe it would be a good idea to match us in at least a couple of these categories before worrying about "taking over the reins of the world" from us?

We have the longest HSR network, more than the world combined, we have more city centers that have million or more people, we have the largest military, fastest growing military budget, and one of the fastest growing economy on percentages terms, and fastest overall in raw numbers.

We have the world's best clean energy program, our hydro, wind and more are heads and shoulders above the rest, we are the fastest growing car market, biggest consumption of oil(sometimes), and largest trading nation, biggest trader in Africa, most nations have us as biggest trade partners. Peaceful for 40 years.

The list goes on.

Depends on how you want to look at it, though I always maintain it is the future, this is just laying the ground work for the future.

 

[DrawingDead]

Glad you caught me on slow Saturday

One example is Taiwan, how would America react if someone stepped in and told Lincoln, the confederates must remain and any attempt on them is a declaration of war.

Taiwan is a poor example. Lincoln was the legitimate, elected representative of the United States. The communists weren't the legitimate government of the time. KMT was the considered the legitimate government. We did exactly the right thing by not acknowledging a hostile takeover of mainland China. That's why ROC held the permanent seat in the UN security council for 25 years. We didn't back Taiwan because we had Chiang Kai-Shek tattooed on our collective asses. We had sound legal reasoning behind. Did China recognize the Taliban government in Afghanistan? How about ISIS? Are you recognizing them too?

Flying spy planes close to our coast, it's not illegal, if we are to accept American's definition, but it's not friendly. I could stand 2 inches away from some one and breath down their necks, it's not illegal, but I don't do it, because it's insane.

So you do see our problem with China crowding its neighbors . But yet you disregard it? Our recon is over international waters. The problem with you claiming the islands in the middle of the ocean is that you're putting the "Chinese coast" next to us not the other way around. The other countries don't mind us there because they have defense pacts with us.

Before you say we can do the same, let's look at a field where we can, America has clearly defined cyber activities in relations to national security and not IP theft are normal and some what acceptable, and yet, we are hearing

Proof Obama administration did say it.
US Accuses Chinese Hackers in Latest Data Breach | The Diplomat

Yet we all heard the response, and America is actively defending its cyber security, in ways that we don't know. Before you say America is only shoring up your own defense, not infringing on other nation's rights.

10th Fleet’s the Charm? US Navy Looks to Beef Up Cyber Capabilities | The Diplomat

And I agree with the US policy. You can call me biased if you'd like (and to an extent, I'm sure I am). However, think of international waters and airspace as a park bench. You're welcome to sit on it. You just can't build a home around it and pretend like its yours. You said it yourself that it was creepy to stand 2" away from someone. If you're walking along, yeah you might brush up against someone, sometime. That's the difference between what we're doing and what you're building. We've brushing up against people as we walk by, you're the creepy guy who's standing way too close for comfort. China has a right to put any and all defensive or offensive systems its heart desires. What is not acceptable is building stuff in other people's EEZ.

Keep in mind China is not building islands to launch attacks on South East Asia, and let's not pretend otherwise. It could do that, just like the American "defensive" abilities can easily be turned offensive, but according to both of us, neither of us is doing so, and our version is more convincing. Which is more likely, China conquering Philippines for kicks or America turning on it's "defensive" cyber warriors to attack.

Oh and your allies, Philippines and Taiwan also claims islands far outside of their EEZ. Look at the map again. Especially Taiwan who not only wants the entire SCS, but also Mongolia.

I accept American interests are for there for America, but I find that most Americans seems to assume China does things randomly.

I don't believe China is going to launch attacks on South East Asia. China, by character, is not an aggressive, in your face kind of nation. They are more squatters than conquerors. If you're not looking, they'll grab anything that's not nailed to the floor. But I don't believe they are above pushing one of the little countries around and grabbing their land up. I believe the goal is to claim all these islands and then use that slowly create a larger and larger EEZ and cut other countries out of the any benefits from the SCS.

This isn't about claiming islands OUTSIDE your EEZ. Many countries have claims like that. It is about claiming islands that INSIDE someone else' EEZ.

We don't assume that China is doing things randomly. I've explained what I think is going on in the previous part of this post.

My point exactly, did you miss the point where I said America is not going away even after we pass you guys in GDP.

That was just me clarifying that the die was cast after the first world war. You made it sound like the second world war caused Britain lose its status the premier power in the world.

We signed treaties with Pakistan to solve our dispute, we solved out dispute with Russia, done deal with Mongolia, though ROC still claims it. What's left.

Dispute with India, border left over from the British era, I mean even Pakistan and India still has dispute over border, and they were created by the British.

Taiwan, come on.

South China Sea, left over from 1947, again republic of China, if you want I can walk you through why we inherited those claims.

Japan, America handed the Diaoyu islands to Japan without inviting us OR ROC to the meeting of SF.

I think its great that you solved your border disputes with Pakistan, Russia and Mongolia. I don't know much about the your conflict with India. However, the little bit I looked up shows me that you agreed to the line drawn by the same guy when it came to your border with Burma. There is one interesting point I wanted to raise regarding your conflict with India. You're claiming an entire state there as yours. However, they've had control for 70 years. What is your plan if they woke up one day and said fine, its yours? Those people don't know Chinese. They have nothing in common with you. Your only basis for this claim is that the Qing empire once had peripheral control of this area through Tibet. Other than that, you've got nothing. This is all ancient history. Do you see why you're making your neighbors uncomfortable? Do you see why we think your claims are no more than glorified attempts at a land-grab?

Taiwan is a completely different from all the other cases because, in essence, they claim sovereignty over you and vice versa. It is not a classic border dispute.

Again, PRC fought the ROC for supremacy over China. You are not the same entity. You don't automatically get everything they claimed. If you have anything that is not based on the Qing Empire or random claims by the ROC after WWII, I'd love to hear it. However, China would be better off taking it to arbitration. If you have a legitimate claim, I'm sure you'll prevail.

Of course, we gave Senkaku to Japan. We took it from them. They had it BEFORE WWII. Why would we give it back to you? You lost them in the first Sino-Japanese war.

So tell me again, which ones were started by us, and not left over from previous governments or created by some foreign power who didn't even ask our opinion, when they knew full well what we thought, or at least ROC, an American ally thought.

I'm guessing you're looking for more than North Korea/South Korea, India and the tensions today in the SCS?

We have the longest HSR network, more than the world combined, we have more city centers that have million or more people, we have the largest military, fastest growing military budget, and one of the fastest growing economy on percentages terms, and fastest overall in raw numbers.

We have the world's best clean energy program, our hydro, wind and more are heads and shoulders above the rest, we are the fastest growing car market, biggest consumption of oil(sometimes), and largest trading nation, biggest trader in Africa, most nations have us as biggest trade partners. Peaceful for 40 years.

The list goes on.

Depends on how you want to look at it, though I always maintain it is the future, this is just laying the ground work for the future.

There are some terrific accomplishments there. Before you can take over the reins of this world, you're going to need to be either a economic or military superpower (preferably both, like you know who ). You're neither right now. 35 year of backbreaking work and sacrifices have brought to within 60 percent of us. I'm just wondering if you should be worrying about taking over the reins rather than how to get past us first.

 

[Genesis]

Taiwan is a poor example. Lincoln was the legitimate, elected representative of the United States. The communists weren't the legitimate government of the time. KMT was the considered the legitimate government. We did exactly the right thing by not acknowledging a hostile takeover of mainland China. That's why ROC held the permanent seat in the UN security council for 25 years. We didn't back Taiwan because we had Chiang Kai-Shek tattooed on our collective asses. We had sound legal reasoning behind. Did China recognize the Taliban government in Afghanistan? How about ISIS? Are you recognizing them too?

I'm glad you said the KMT is the legitimate government. The KMT was formed sometime before 1911, after 1911, along with Yuan Shikai, they forced the Qing government to abdicate, and give the reins of government to the Republic of China, which was headed by Yuan, NOT KMT. KMT was later outlawed and banished, they made a come back a little later, and formed a weak government in Guangdong, with the help of a warlord who later almost killed Sun Yatsen.

Sun Yatsen in turn, turned to the Soviets, and made he CCP a part of the Republic. Along with the CCP, with a Communist Regiment, YiTing, going head first into battle. In 1927, KMT purged CCP, as CCP held Shanghai and Chang wasn't about to let CCP have Shanghai, thousands were killed.

In the chain of events, the CCP was part of the republic of China, also made and legitimized by Sun himself, thus Sun was the father of both CCP and KMT.

The only way CCP isn't legitimate is if the purge made it so, would you say a purge can make a party illegitimate?

You can see the difference between Taliban, ISIS and CCP.

So you do see our problem with China crowding its neighbors . But yet you disregard it? Our recon is over international waters. The problem with you claiming the islands in the middle of the ocean is that you're putting the "Chinese coast" next to us not the other way around. The other countries don't mind us there because they have defense pacts with us.

We mind you guys flying near us, the Chinese coast was just China and you disregard it. Now we are taking actions into our own hands. Whatever others think in this issue isn't important, what is important is what we think.

This may come as a shock to you, but China doesn't take orders from the US, just like the US doesn't take orders from China. You do what you must do in cyber space and we will do what we must in South China Sea.

And I agree with the US policy. You can call me biased if you'd like (and to an extent, I'm sure I am). However, think of international waters and airspace as a park bench. You're welcome to sit on it. You just can't build a home around it and pretend like its yours. You said it yourself that it was creepy to stand 2" away from someone. If you're walking along, yeah you might brush up against someone, sometime. That's the difference between what we're doing and what you're building. We've brushing up against people as we walk by, you're the creepy guy who's standing way too close for comfort. China has a right to put any and all defensive or offensive systems its heart desires. What is not acceptable is building stuff in other people's EEZ.

It's not international waters, the Philippines and Vietnam and more claims it, which means EVEN IF our claim is illegitimate, those islands will still generate EEZ and territorial sea, according to BOTH Vietnam and Philippines, if they are to fall into their hands. Which means even though some may be inside other's EEZ, it doesn't make them theirs, there isn't a part of the law that says what's closer is yours.

As to brushing by, when I see a guy in a 10,000 dollar suit, I don't go up as close as possible, I would continue on my way, but not make a point to stand near him to show who's boss. If I did, he would file a restraining order, and this is our way of saying GTFO.

I think its great that you solved your border disputes with Pakistan, Russia and Mongolia. I don't know much about the your conflict with India. However, the little bit I looked up shows me that you agreed to the line drawn by the same guy when it came to your border with Burma. There is one interesting point I wanted to raise regarding your conflict with India. You're claiming an entire state there as yours. However, they've had control for 70 years. What is your plan if they woke up one day and said fine, its yours? Those people don't know Chinese. They have nothing in common with you. Your only basis for this claim is that the Qing empire once had peripheral control of this area through Tibet. Other than that, you've got nothing. This is all ancient history. Do you see why you're making your neighbors uncomfortable? Do you see why we think your claims are no more than glorified attempts at a land-grab?

Burmese and China signed treaties that settled the borders, same way we solved it with Pakistan, with the guy drawing the same line. India, however, especially Nehru sees India as the leading third world nation and wanted no part of a negotiation, thus came the 62 war.

Now you can see it however you like, someone in China might think Indian people are screwed over in America, but it doesn't matter because it is settled. Once these borders of China become settled again, who would even raise an eyebrow over what's China's and what isn't.

Nobody brings up the fact China Tajikistan dispute, they ceded land to us, but it doesn't matter, because it is settled.

BTW, India also claims Chinese territory, why don't you bring that up, it's not a one way claim.

Taiwan is a completely different from all the other cases because, in essence, they claim sovereignty over you and vice versa. It is not a classic border dispute.

Yet, there you are, which makes it worse, you are interfering in the internal politics of China. If Communism was a thing in the cold war, it stopped once the cold war stopped and we are no longer communist.

Before you bring up Taiwan attitude, the confederates didn't separate because they loved the union.

Again, PRC fought the ROC for supremacy over China. You are not the same entity. You don't automatically get everything they claimed. If you have anything that is not based on the Qing Empire or random claims by the ROC after WWII, I'd love to hear it. However, China would be better off taking it to arbitration. If you have a legitimate claim, I'm sure you'll prevail.

Of course, we gave Senkaku to Japan. We took it from them. They had it BEFORE WWII. Why would we give it back to you? You lost them in the first Sino-Japanese war.

All Japanese occupied territories are to be returned, that includes Taiwan which was. Now those islands were administered by the US after WW2, after US relinquished control who should it be returned to, according to the treaty that was signed by the Japanese, of which we are a party.

I'm guessing you're looking for more than North Korea/South Korea, India and the tensions today in the SCS?

The super powers created the Koreas, btw who really started Korean war is debatable, let's not forget the first Korean President is no charmer. India and China is a British creation, and South China Sea is a inherited claim of ROC.

BTW, the Vietnamese claim is also inherited from their American puppet, while Philippines came from the US, did a non existent nation create claims?

There are some terrific accomplishments there. Before you can take over the reins of this world, you're going to need to be either a economic or military superpower (preferably both, like you know who ). You're neither right now. 35 year of backbreaking work and sacrifices have brought to within 60 percent of us. I'm just wondering if you should be worrying about taking over the reins rather than how to get past us first.

Sure in PPP terms we are already #1, but I'm willing to wait for nominal #1. As to military, we are already advancing fast, America created F-15, only 30 years later did we create an equivalent, now, it's only 10 years. We'll have a hard time catching the US in numbers as we don't want to become a world police, and the world doesn't have room for a world police anymore, as current US dominance cannot last, due to the fact, China is getting a bigger slice and the pie isn't getting bigger.

Last taking South China Sea, final claim undecided, not going to be the entire 9 dash line, international organizations Africa, Asia and South American investment, and more, these are all part of it.

Unless you think after we pass you in GDP, and one day we wake up America accepts it. It's incremental, even the US needed the League than UN.

 

[Sam.]

I think its great that you solved your border disputes with Pakistan, Russia and Mongolia. I don't know much about the your conflict with India. However, the little bit I looked up shows me that you agreed to the line drawn by the same guy when it came to your border with Burma. There is one interesting point I wanted to raise regarding your conflict with India. You're claiming an entire state there as yours. However, they've had control for 70 years. What is your plan if they woke up one day and said fine, its yours? Those people don't know Chinese. They have nothing in common with you. Your only basis for this claim is that the Qing empire once had peripheral control of this area through Tibet. Other than that, you've got nothing. This is all ancient history. Do you see why you're making your neighbors uncomfortable? Do you see why we think your claims are no more than glorified attempts at a land-grab?

By this way afganistan/pakistan/bangladesh/nepal/bhutan/myyamar all belongs to us as they were part of India in ancient times.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

We signed treaties with Pakistan to solve our dispute, we solved out dispute with Russia, done deal with Mongolia, though ROC still claims it. What's left.

Dispute with India, border left over from the British era, I mean even Pakistan and India still has dispute over border, and they were created by the British.

You signed treaties with Pakistan over territory without involving India which is a genuine claimant!

In essence you committed the same crime that you later accuse Japan and America of!

Am I missing something here or you guys are so much used to the hypocrisy that you don't notice it anymore?

Japan, America handed the Diaoyu islands to Japan without inviting us OR ROC to the meeting of SF.

I think its great that you solved your border disputes with Pakistan, Russia and Mongolia. I don't know much about the your conflict with India. However, the little bit I looked up shows me that you agreed to the line drawn by the same guy when it came to your border with Burma.

The border-settlement that Chinese had with Pakistan is invalid because the genuine claimant, India was not party to it!

However, the little bit I looked up shows me that you agreed to the line drawn by the same guy when it came to your border with Burma.

Another hypocrisy! They recognize the same line with Burma while vehemently denying and questioning the legality of it when it comes to India!

There is one interesting point I wanted to raise regarding your conflict with India. You're claiming an entire state there as yours. However, they've had control for 70 years. What is your plan if they woke up one day and said fine, its yours? Those people don't know Chinese. They have nothing in common with you. Your only basis for this claim is that the Qing empire once had peripheral control of this area through Tibet. Other than that, you've got nothing. This is all ancient history. Do you see why you're making your neighbors uncomfortable? Do you see why we think your claims are no more than glorified attempts at a land-grab?

But that's not a big problem for them, you see! They can of course, use the tactics first learnt during the Cultural revolution, which were then practiced/perfected in Xinjiang!

It would take them less time for cleansing the area of the 'remnants' than building one of those skyscrapers in Shanghai from ground up!

 

[xunzi]

The word you're looking for is "reins" not "reigns"

There is no "trap". There is, however, a genuine concern that you're unnecessarily rocking the boat. In this day and age when people aren't hopping on boats and going off to colonize far off lands "in the name of the Crown", you're trying to occupy little reefs in other countries' EEZ.

The US had already taken over as the world's largest economy after the FIRST world war and had supported Britain in its efforts during WW I and II. It wasn't like they allowed us or handed us the reins to anything. We were just heading in opposite directions.

States don't hand over the reins to other states. You take over because you are the most influential nation in the world. The Sino-American rivalry is unavoidable because these are the 2 of the largest economies in the world. However, what is very avoidable, is a military rivalry. But if the posters on PDF are anything to go by, China believes that might is right and that the Chinese are entitled to everything the any Chinese saw, touched or walked by. That really doesn't work for anyone else in today's world. The world has moved on in the century since Qing empire collapsed. You're not the Qings. You don't get to turn back the clock and claim everything that may or may not have been controlled by some empire at some point in history.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out. China is still less than 2/3 the economy with 4 times the population. Our GDP per capita is 7 times that of China. China is still working on getting its first Aircraft carrier into service, China is still working on its first stealth fighter. I'm sure I don't need to point out where we are with the same things. So maybe it would be a good idea to match us in at least a couple of these categories before worrying about "taking over the reins of the world" from us?

So are you trying to say that only you, the mighty United States of the World, are allow to occupy offshore territories in other country EEZ but not us, China? Is that right? LOL

 

[Genesis]

By this way afganistan/pakistan/bangladesh/nepal/bhutan/myyamar all belongs to us as they were part of India in ancient times.

Did you miss the part where I explained how People's Republic came to be?

The British owned India, hence they can do whatever they want with it. They made these countries, because it was their right. China inherited all previous claims in a continuous succession of governments.

You signed treaties with Pakistan over territory without involving India which is a genuine claimant!

In essence you committed the same crime that you later accuse Japan and America of!

Am I missing something here or you guys are so much used to the hypocrisy that you don't notice it anymore?

Don't notice it anymore. But also there was a treaty with the US on the handing back of all lands occupied by the Japanese, I don't recall a treaty that says China needs to involve India in all discussions.

Another hypocrisy! They recognize the same line with Burma while vehemently denying and questioning the legality of it when it comes to India!

That has a historic reason to it. If me and my friend fight, we may get into it, but we would make up later, if I fight a stranger, I might sue or get the police involved.

India and China has historic reasons behind it. Tell me you guys made no mistakes in that settlement and were an innocent party in the 62 war.

Had you try to deal with us on equal terms at the time, it would have ended, as it was close to it. Nehru's arrogance was not only evident there, but Bandung conference and other events.

But that's not a big problem for them, you see! They can of course, use the tactics first learnt during the Cultural revolution, which were then practiced/perfected in Xinjiang!

It would take them less time for cleansing the area of the 'remnants' than building one of those skyscrapers in Shanghai from ground up!

we made mistakes certainly, but if are to judge how minorities are treated, especially given the economic attention paid to these areas, I would say quite a few other people are far more guilty than us, but it's not a race to the bottom and I don't care what someone else does.

So I would just say it is an area we need to work on.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

BTW, India also claims Chinese territory, why don't you bring that up, it's not a one way claim.

Except that Indian claim on what you describe as "Chinese" territory (Aksai Chin) are not based on some medieval empire but of the princely state which ruled it all the way after Partition of the subcontinent in 1947.

Don't notice it anymore. But also there was a treaty with the US on the handing back of all lands occupied by the Japanese, I don't recall a treaty that says China needs to involve India in all discussions.

You wouldn't have to involve India in the settlement - except that Aksai Chin, being part of the princely state of J&K all the way till after the partition in 1947, formally acceded to India!

I would argue India's claim on Aksai Chin is stronger than any of the other parties - one which claims it simply on the basis of their religion while the other, bases its claim on a medieval empire!

 

[Genesis]

Except that Indian claim on what you describe as "Chinese" territory (Aksai Chin) are not based on some medieval empire but of the princely state which ruled it all the way after Partition of the subcontinent in 1947.



You wouldn't have to involve India in the settlement - except that Aksai Chin, being part of the princely state of J&K all the way till after the partition in 1947, formally acceded to India!

I would argue India's claim on Aksai Chin is stronger than any of the other parties - one which claims it simply on the basis of their religion while the other, bases its claim on a medieval empire!

We are still disputing Aksai Chin, Pakistan didn't hand it over to us, I don't think.

 

[DrawingDead]

I'm glad you said the KMT is the legitimate government. The KMT was formed sometime before 1911, after 1911, along with Yuan Shikai, they forced the Qing government to abdicate, and give the reins of government to the Republic of China, which was headed by Yuan, NOT KMT. KMT was later outlawed and banished, they made a come back a little later, and formed a weak government in Guangdong, with the help of a warlord who later almost killed Sun Yatsen.

Sun Yatsen in turn, turned to the Soviets, and made he CCP a part of the Republic. Along with the CCP, with a Communist Regiment, YiTing, going head first into battle. In 1927, KMT purged CCP, as CCP held Shanghai and Chang wasn't about to let CCP have Shanghai, thousands were killed.

In the chain of events, the CCP was part of the republic of China, also made and legitimized by Sun himself, thus Sun was the father of both CCP and KMT.

The only way CCP isn't legitimate is if the purge made it so, would you say a purge can make a party illegitimate?

You can see the difference between Taliban, ISIS and CCP.

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You did see where I said "Considered", right?

ISIS? Ok so I was being a dick. Afghan Taliban? It could be argued that there's a strong similarity there in the way things went down. Country just coming out of a serious war, struggling to find its footing, a new force backed by a neighbor based solely on idealogy sweeps in and takes control.

We mind you guys flying near us, the Chinese coast was just China and you disregard it. Now we are taking actions into our own hands. Whatever others think in this issue isn't important, what is important is what we think.

This may come as a shock to you, but China doesn't take orders from the US, just like the US doesn't take orders from China. You do what you must do in cyber space and we will do what we must in South China

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Did you happen to catch that clip of the Chinese telling P-8 to leave? And do you remember what the P-8's response was? That was fiery cross reef. Take a look at where it is in relation to China and tell me if you weren't Chinese, your first reaction wouldn't be wtf?

As for the second part, I actually appreciate that answer more than BS claims and playing victim because that's the god's honest truth. You're growing more powerful and you feel like you should be allowed to do anything you want. The rest is just horse shit.

It's not international waters, the Philippines and Vietnam and more claims it, which means EVEN IF our claim is illegitimate, those islands will still generate EEZ and territorial sea, according to BOTH Vietnam and Philippines, if they are to fall into their hands. Which means even though some may be inside other's EEZ, it doesn't make them theirs, there isn't a part of the law that says what's closer is yours.

As to brushing by, when I see a guy in a 10,000 dollar suit, I don't go up as close as possible, I would continue on my way, but not make a point to stand near him to show who's boss. If I did, he would file a restraining order, and this is our way of saying GTFO.

I'm sure it would. However, doesn't seem like they have a problem with us being there. By the way, we didn't enter China's territorial waters or airspace. That would be pretty much the same as declaring war on China.

We're just walking along on our way to our friend's place. It's the guy in the 10,000 dollar suit who's pretending like he owns the sidewalk because he just bought his first suit.

Burmese and China signed treaties that settled the borders, same way we solved it with Pakistan, with the guy drawing the same line. India, however, especially Nehru sees India as the leading third world nation and wanted no part of a negotiation, thus came the 62 war.

Now you can see it however you like, someone in China might think Indian people are screwed over in America, but it doesn't matter because it is settled. Once these borders of China become settled again, who would even raise an eyebrow over what's China's and what isn't.

Nobody brings up the fact China Tajikistan dispute, they ceded land to us, but it doesn't matter, because it is settled.

BTW, India also claims Chinese territory, why don't you bring that up, it's not a one way claim.

I didn't bring up the your border dispute with India either. You did. Or did you already forget that.

If you settle it peacefully with your neighbors, no one will, if you decide to force the issue. Who knows?

As for the rest of it, Taiwan doesn't seems to interested in rejoining China. We don't plan on forcing them.

Senkaku was lost in the first Sino-Japanese war. We weren't there to right all wrongs, we were just getting you back territory you lost in the second war.

It was North Korea that started the Korean War. Korea was already divided up. They decided to go for the whole thing, with a little help from their Chinese friends, of course.

The world police line is just something every Chinese brings up when I point out that they're not really a close second as yet. I've just learned to ignore it.

PPP is for suckers. Hit me up when your nominal GDP bigger than us. I would say hit me up when your per capita GDP matches ours. But you and I are going to be dead and buried before that.

 

[Joeblow]

We are still disputing Aksai Chin, Pakistan didn't hand it over to us, I don't think.

They're talking about Karakoram.

 

[DrawingDead]

So are you trying to say that only you, the mighty United States of the World, are allow to occupy offshore territories in other country EEZ but not us, China? Is that right? LOL

Give me a couple of examples, preferably from the recent past. I wouldn't want to drag us down the path of fighting over the sins of our forefathers. Oh by the way, you do know we're not party to UNCLOS, right?