No Where to Run For China, Part 1

[Genesis]

You did see where I said "Considered", right?

ISIS? Ok so I was being a dick. Afghan Taliban? It could be argued that there's a strong similarity there in the way things went down. Country just coming out of a serious war, struggling to find its footing, a new force backed by a neighbor based solely on idealogy sweeps in and takes control.

Unless the previous Afgan government legitimized the Taliban, we are not similar.

Did you happen to catch that clip of the Chinese telling P-8 to leave? And do you remember what the P-8's response was? That was fiery cross reef. Take a look at where it is in relation to China and tell me if you weren't Chinese, your first reaction wouldn't be wtf?

As for the second part, I actually appreciate that answer more than BS claims and playing victim because that's the god's honest truth. You're growing more powerful and you feel like you should be allowed to do anything you want. The rest is just horse shit.

First I am Chinese, and distance don't matter, second, that's what it is, but we all got to let the other have some wiggle room, no need to back anyone into a corner.

I'm sure it would. However, doesn't seem like they have a problem with us being there. By the way, we didn't enter China's territorial waters or airspace. That would be pretty much the same as declaring war on China.

We're just walking along on our way to our friend's place. It's the guy in the 10,000 dollar suit who's pretending like he owns the sidewalk because he just bought his first suit.

True you haven't done that yet. Or maybe never will, however as we seen with the New York imaginary kidnapper/rapist cop, intent may not be enough to convict, but it sure as hell going to make one look at it seriously.

I didn't bring up the your border dispute with India either. You did. Or did you already forget that.

If you settle it peacefully with your neighbors, no one will, if you decide to force the issue. Who knows?

As for the rest of it, Taiwan doesn't seems to interested in rejoining China. We don't plan on forcing them.

We did settle most of our borders peacefully, the ones we didn't, have other unfortunate circumstances.

As to Taiwan, it's not your job to do anything, we will. And we promise we won't burn it to the ground like you did to the South. We'll keep the bummers to a minimum as well.

Senkaku was lost in the first Sino-Japanese war. We weren't there to right all wrongs, we were just getting you back territory you lost in the second war.

Taiwan was also lost then, why did you give it back? Maybe it was under the everything clause?

It was North Korea that started the Korean War. Korea was already divided up. They decided to go for the whole thing, with a little help from their Chinese friends, of course.

I can agree to disagree.

The world police line is just something every Chinese brings up when I point out that they're not really a close second as yet. I've just learned to ignore it.

PPP is for suckers. Hit me up when your nominal GDP bigger than us. I would say hit me up when your per capita GDP matches ours. But you and I are going to be dead and buried before that.

Close second to what? What are you going to do with 11 carriers if things goes our way, and if it doesn't what do we need 11 carriers for.

During the Cold War and WW2, US had far more assets, there was a need for it, as times change needs change.

PPP is for suckers that's why I said what I said. As to per capita, it matters sure, but anyone think living in Japan is worse than living in the US? Or UK? In terms of national strength, what really matters is total output, or else China wouldn't be the biggest trading nation.

They're talking about Karakoram.

Who is? If you are talking about my post on Aksai Chin, the post I quoted clearly said Aksai China

 

[Huan]

So are you trying to say that only you, the mighty United States of the World, are allow to occupy offshore territories in other country EEZ but not us, China? Is that right? LOL

Those with might create influence and make the unequal rules on weaker parties since WW II. Washington still sees China as weak and unequal. We still have 10 nuclear carriers vs 1 Chinese training carrier.

Give me a couple of examples, preferably from the recent past. I wouldn't want to drag us down the path of fighting over the sins of our forefathers. Oh by the way, you do know we're not party to UNCLOS, right?

China is also not a party to UNCLOS.

 

[Transhumanist]

China is also not a party to UNCLOS.

Parties to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

Parties - green
Parties, dually represented by the European Union - blue
Signatories - yellow
Non-parties - red

United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index

 

[Huan]

List of parties to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

Parties - green
Parties, dually represented by the European Union - blue
Signatories - yellow
Non-parties - red

United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index

Ooops, looks like I remember wrong.

 

[DrawingDead]

Parties to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

Parties - green
Parties, dually represented by the European Union - blue
Signatories - yellow
Non-parties - red

United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index

I hate you!!! I had a nice comeback lined up. Now what am I going to do with it??

 

[soundwave1987]

The word you're looking for is "reins" not "reigns"

There is no "trap". There is, however, a genuine concern that you're unnecessarily rocking the boat. In this day and age when people aren't hopping on boats and going off to colonize far off lands "in the name of the Crown", you're trying to occupy little reefs in other countries' EEZ.

The US had already taken over as the world's largest economy after the FIRST world war and had supported Britain in its efforts during WW I and II. It wasn't like they allowed us or handed us the reins to anything. We were just heading in opposite directions.

States don't hand over the reins to other states. You take over because you are the most influential nation in the world. The Sino-American rivalry is unavoidable because these are the 2 of the largest economies in the world. However, what is very avoidable, is a military rivalry. But if the posters on PDF are anything to go by, China believes that might is right and that the Chinese are entitled to everything the any Chinese saw, touched or walked by. That really doesn't work for anyone else in today's world. The world has moved on in the century since Qing empire collapsed. You're not the Qings. You don't get to turn back the clock and claim everything that may or may not have been controlled by some empire at some point in history.

There is one more thing I'd like to point out. China is still less than 2/3 the economy with 4 times the population. Our GDP per capita is 7 times that of China. China is still working on getting its first Aircraft carrier into service, China is still working on its first stealth fighter. I'm sure I don't need to point out where we are with the same things. So maybe it would be a good idea to match us in at least a couple of these categories before worrying about "taking over the reins of the world" from us?

As far as I concern, we have officially stated that we don't want to challenge you to seize control of the world. I don't think we have world domination intended but merely to pursue our own interest. Perhaps US is obsessed with world hegemony or feel obliged to lead and be privileged, while China is no longer the middle kingdom who needed to boss the others. We now focus only on our own interest and couldn't care less about where the leadership lies as long as it hinders not our benifits. We don't command, nor do we obey, we do only what we should do and react on other's actions.
Like you said, we are far from as advanced as you, so we'll try everything to keep on advancing, not because we want to catch up with you, butbecause this is what we should do.

 

[DrawingDead]

Unless the previous Afgan government legitimized the Taliban, we are not similar.

First I am Chinese, and distance don't matter, second, that's what it is, but we all got to let the other have some wiggle room, no need to back anyone into a corner.

True you haven't done that yet. Or maybe never will, however as we seen with the New York imaginary kidnapper/rapist cop, intent may not be enough to convict, but it sure as hell going to make one look at it seriously.

We did settle most of our borders peacefully, the ones we didn't, have other unfortunate circumstances.

As to Taiwan, it's not your job to do anything, we will. And we promise we won't burn it to the ground like you did to the South. We'll keep the bummers to a minimum as well.

Taiwan was also lost then, why did you give it back? Maybe it was under the everything clause?

I can agree to disagree.

Close second to what? What are you going to do with 11 carriers if things goes our way, and if it doesn't what do we need 11 carriers for.

During the Cold War and WW2, US had far more assets, there was a need for it, as times change needs change.

PPP is for suckers that's why I said what I said. As to per capita, it matters sure, but anyone think living in Japan is worse than living in the US? Or UK? In terms of national strength, what really matters is total output, or else China wouldn't be the biggest trading nation.


Who is? If you are talking about my post on Aksai Chin, the post I quoted clearly said Aksai China

I know distance doesn't matter to you and the world is your oyster. But the people living next to your long distance claims? They're a little freaked out.

I don't even know what that means and how it pertains to the topic at hand. You did see that I said "we", right?

I'm sure the ones that you didn't settle are your neighbors fault.

Tell the Taiwanese to get rid of us. Also, do you really want to bring up ancient history? China's hasn't really been the beacon of human rights in the last 150 years.

No, I'm sure there is no need for aircraft carriers. I'm sure that's why China is furiously working on some even as we speak.

The difference in GDP per capita between US, UK and Japan is not the same as the difference between that of US and China. I hope you realize that. US, UK and Japan are in the same general vicinity. China is quite a bit smaller.

We all look at things that further our argument which is what you're doing right now with the total output example. I guess my outlook would a little different.

As far as I concern, we have officially stated that we don't want to challenge you to seize control of the world. I don't think we have world domination intended but merely to pursue our own interest. Perhaps US is obsessed with world hegemony or feel obliged to lead and be privileged, while China is no longer the middle kingdom who needed to boss the others. We now focus only on our own interest and couldn't care less about where the leadership lies as long as it hinders not our benifits. We don't command, nor do we obey, we do only what we should do and react on other's actions.
Like you said, we are far from as advanced as you, so we'll try everything to keep on advancing, not because we want to catch up with you, butbecause this is what we should do.

That is a commendable attitude. However, since you don't exist in a vacuum, the pursuit of your self-interests does affect others especially when your interests land you squarely in someone else's backyard. As for not being a hegemony, ask your neighbors, they'll tell you how they really feel. You're not in a position to push us around right now. The day you are, you're gonna be all over us like white on rice. The rest is just niceties put out there for public consumption.

Those with might create influence and make the unequal rules on weaker parties since WW II. Washington still sees China as weak and unequal. We still have 10 nuclear carriers vs 1 Chinese training carrier.


China is also not a party to UNCLOS.

How about some examples of how we're being unfair to China?

 

[Genesis]

I know distance doesn't matter to you and the world is your oyster. But the people living next to your long distance claims? They're a little freaked out.

You are standing there with your hundreds of bases, billions of spending, and you're telling us not to freak others out.

If you want to be a good guy, tone down your power, don't ask us to do ours.

I'm sure the ones that you didn't settle are your neighbors fault.

Good thing we agree.

Tell the Taiwanese to get rid of us. Also, do you really want to bring up ancient history? China's hasn't really been the beacon of human rights in the last 150 years.

I don't care if we are Nazi Germany, it's our internal business and you should stay out of it, especially since you asked for the same courtesy.

But in the end you don't have to, we are working on these projects, not so we can ask nicely later.

No, I'm sure there is no need for aircraft carriers. I'm sure that's why China is furiously working on some even as we speak.

Sure there is a need, did I say there isn't. You are twisting my words. Do you need 11 is the question. If China succeeds here, the US playing space will be significantly reduced. If it doesn't why do we need 11.

BTW, I don't mean US can't come to Asia, just that carrier effectiveness will be greatly reduced, and thus stationing 1 or 7 in Asia-Pacific will make little difference to the final outcome. China doesn't have a lot of advanced fighters, just 800, but that number will triple in the coming decades, our barriers are getting broken.

The difference in GDP per capita between US, UK and Japan is not the same as the difference between that of US and China. I hope you realize that. US, UK and Japan are in the same general vicinity. China is quite a bit smaller.

Of course I realize that, but we should reach mid income by 2025, and about South Korea level and into high income territory by 2035. Of course you can bet against us, but the record is not on your side even if there is a slow down. 20 years sounds long, but 40 has already passed.

I did say we are laying the ground work for the future and not now.

We all look at things that further our argument which is what you're doing right now with the total output example. I guess my outlook would a little different.

sure. that's why we have debates, to keep life interesting.

 

[IsaacNewton]

If the cold war taught us anythibg, it is that we can be rivals without military conflict.

But chinese us relations is defined by more than rivalry, also by cooperation in economic affairs, environment, global peace.

In fact america welcomes china to participate more in international peace keeping, especially in unstable regions of the world like middle east and Africa.

 

[DrawingDead]

You are standing there with your hundreds of bases, billions of spending, and you're telling us not to freak others out.

If you want to be a good guy, tone down your power, don't ask us to do ours.



Good thing we agree.



I don't care if we are Nazi Germany, it's our internal business and you should stay out of it, especially since you asked for the same courtesy.

But in the end you don't have to, we are working on these projects, not so we can ask nicely later.



Sure there is a need, did I say there isn't. You are twisting my words. Do you need 11 is the question. If China succeeds here, the US playing space will be significantly reduced. If it doesn't why do we need 11.

BTW, I don't mean US can't come to Asia, just that carrier effectiveness will be greatly reduced, and thus stationing 1 or 7 in Asia-Pacific will make little difference to the final outcome. China doesn't have a lot of advanced fighters, just 800, but that number will triple in the coming decades, our barriers are getting broken.



Of course I realize that, but we should reach mid income by 2025, and about South Korea level and into high income territory by 2035. Of course you can bet against us, but the record is not on your side even if there is a slow down. 20 years sounds long, but 40 has already passed.

I did say we are laying the ground work for the future and not now.


sure. that's why we have debates, to keep life interesting.

People don't worry about us to swallowing up their territory. They just don't like to see us when they got something cooking.

We are the good guys. Not just today, but in history. No super power in the world has ever behaved as well as the U.S. Everyone used their military might to take wealth from others, we've provided billions in aid to anyone and everyone. Think of our predecessors and how they treated the world in their heyday. Now compare that to how we act. Can you seriously say that Britain, Rome, the Mongols or anyone for that matter treated the world as well as the U.S.? I'm not talking about rich Asian empires that just stayed within their territories. I'm talking genuine world powers that could take the fight to the enemy.

That's where the world of today differs from the past. You don't get to forcibly take over Taiwan against their will. Sorry.

Each of those super carriers has 80-90 fighter aircraft on it. Having 7 of them plus the ones stationed in nearby bases may not be enough for a full scale ground invasion of China. However, it is enough to deter China from acting against its neighbors. "Peace through superior firepower" that's our motto.

By PPP or nominal? Because if you're thinking nominal, that means you'd have to quadruple your economy in 20 years, which is doable when you're just starting out but extremely hard when it's already 10 trillion dollars and it will get harder once the PPP and nominal line up (which it should in the next 5 years). It would be interesting to watch. Good luck

If the cold war taught us anythibg, it is that we can be rivals without military conflict.

But chinese us relations is defined by more than rivalry, also by cooperation in economic affairs, environment, global peace.

In fact america welcomes china to participate more in international peace keeping, especially in unstable regions of the world like middle east and Africa.

Oh great! Thanks for making me look like dick! Nice going, Newton

 

[soundwave1987]

I know distance doesn't matter to you and the world is your oyster. But the people living next to your long distance claims? They're a little freaked out.

I don't even know what that means and how it pertains to the topic at hand. You did see that I said "we", right?

I'm sure the ones that you didn't settle are your neighbors fault.

Tell the Taiwanese to get rid of us. Also, do you really want to bring up ancient history? China's hasn't really been the beacon of human rights in the last 150 years.

No, I'm sure there is no need for aircraft carriers. I'm sure that's why China is furiously working on some even as we speak.

The difference in GDP per capita between US, UK and Japan is not the same as the difference between that of US and China. I hope you realize that. US, UK and Japan are in the same general vicinity. China is quite a bit smaller.

We all look at things that further our argument which is what you're doing right now with the total output example. I guess my outlook would a little different.



That is a commendable attitude. However, since you don't exist in a vacuum, the pursuit of your self-interests does affect others especially when your interests land you squarely in someone else's backyard. As for not being a hegemony, ask your neighbors, they'll tell you how they really feel. You're not in a position to push us around right now. The day you are, you're gonna be all over us like white on rice. The rest is just niceties put out there for public consumption.



How about some examples of how we're being unfair to China?

Our interest lies not on others obedience, we do not invade our neighbor to overthrow their selected government like you did to Guatemala . As you can see, when their interests collide with ours, they will try everything to bargain. We do not seek to trespass into their backyards as long as they do not build their fences into our land. We do not expand like you did to Mexico. The debate is on that where is the boundary of our territory in SCS. Clearly you and other guys cannot accept the line we cannot give up, then we have no choice but to compete by any means necessary. In fact, it is very inappropriate for a American to talk about friendly neighborhood for we can learn from you in diplomacy nothing but brutality, double standard, mind dumbly selfish, and blundered military intervention.

 

[DrawingDead]

Our interest lies not on others obedience, we do not invade our neighbor to overthrow their selected government like you did to Guatemala . As you can see, when their interests collide with ours, they will try everything to bargain. We do not seek to trespass into their backyards as long as they do not build their fences into our land. We do not expand like you did to Mexico. The debate is on that where is the boundary of our territory in SCS. Clearly you and other guys cannot accept the line we cannot give up, then we have no choice but to compete by any means necessary. In fact, it is very inappropriate for a American to talk about friendly neighborhood for we can learn from you in diplomacy nothing but brutality, double standard, mind dumbly selfish, and blundered military intervention.

So let me see if I've got this right. Unreasonable demand and a threat of using "all means necessary" if they don't agree? Got it! Like I said in my previous post. All the niceties are for public consumption.

Yeah, you expanded just like us. How do think you ended up with Tibet and that big uygur province?

Yeah you invade your neighbors. Korea and Vietnam can attest to that.

And speaking of blundered interventions, you should look up the Korean War. Communists started it. End up getting a ton of their people killed and lost territory. You really hit the trifecta with that one, bud.

we're dumb and brutal? Lol ok. Hey, why don't you look up the the 10 deadliest wars and see what it says? It might enlighten you

 

[soundwave1987]

So let me see if I've got this right. Unreasonable demand and a threat of using "all means necessary" if they don't agree? Got it! Like I said in my previous post. All the niceties are for public consumption.

Yeah, you expanded just like us. How do think you ended up with Tibet and that big uygur province?

Yeah you invade your neighbors. Korea and Vietnam can attest to that.

And speaking of blundered interventions, you should look up the Korean War. Communists started it. End up getting a ton of their people killed and lost territory. You really hit the trifecta with that one, bud.

we're dumb and brutal? Lol ok. Hey, why don't you look up the the 10 deadliest wars and see what it says? It might enlighten you

I don't threat, by "any means necessay", I merely point out we do not yield. I know what is totally reasonable to us may be utterly unreasonable to you for we stand for different countries, that's why there are so many conflicts in the world, so we just compete and accept the result.
Xizang and Xinjiang became Chinese territory for hundreds of years ago, FYI Xizang merged into China for religious reason, the common ppl considered Empire of China as embodiment of Maithri bodhisatva, and the uygur are not even native of xinjiang, the native was Han Chinese and inner Moguls, who are both Chinese nationalities today, and I'm not saying we didnt expand from merely a little tribe alongside Yellow River 5 millenniums ago to a large country today. I'm just saying you are not the just one to morally judge us.
As for Korean War, we were not the communist who started it, in fact, our leadership didnt even know about the plot of stalin and kim jiong il, mao and his comrades opposed kim's aggression, but were cheated by NK and Soviet Union. It is korea's civil war, then later you came to help your little buddy from being drove into the sea, and you bombed our border city. We didnt even think about to interven untill you came to bombard us. What did you expect us to do? Sitting there to waite for your bombardment and let you freely threaten our only industrial base back then to extint the only spark of reviving China? And by the way, it was North Korea who asked for our help, how can you call it invasion?
We did intervened some SEAN back in 60s & 70s for some fanatical reason that I intend not to hide, and we stoped doing that 3 decades ago, we only defend what is righteous to us(you may not agree though), yet you are still intervening others all over the world for you thought US is obliged to lead and the rest must obey.
You know what, it's not about how brutal the war you started compared to others, it's about how could you american preaches the lesson of benign diplomacy and accuses us for being the imperialist without any consideration? From what I see, it is a bit hypocritical.

 

[sicsheep]

So let me see if I've got this right. Unreasonable demand and a threat of using "all means necessary" if they don't agree? Got it! Like I said in my previous post. All the niceties are for public consumption.

Yeah, you expanded just like us. How do think you ended up with Tibet and that big uygur province?

Yeah you invade your neighbors. Korea and Vietnam can attest to that.

And speaking of blundered interventions, you should look up the Korean War. Communists started it. End up getting a ton of their people killed and lost territory. You really hit the trifecta with that one, bud.

we're dumb and brutal? Lol ok. Hey, why don't you look up the the 10 deadliest wars and see what it says? It might enlighten you

lol its not our fault US only shares boarders with 2 countries, but you've pretty much invaded everyone else.

 

[xunzi]

Give me a couple of examples, preferably from the recent past. I wouldn't want to drag us down the path of fighting over the sins of our forefathers. Oh by the way, you do know we're not party to UNCLOS, right?

Here's the map of your offshore territories. A few was RIGHT next to South America states. Do you need me to provide territories of other country which was right in the EEZ of another country?

I was wondering why you are being so hypocrite in playing the UNCLOS and proximity card only when it favor you? What exactly is the reason for applying such vast and hilarious viewpoint?