No, Mughals didn't loot India. They made us rich

[American Pakistani]

LOL ...what a moron. If there is a summer and winter capital, then what on earth is a "Main" capital ?

Do you know who was the last king of the kushans ? King Vasudeva of Mathura

Vasudeva is also the name of Krishna.

Da Mb fk, read proper history not the 7 lakh indian occupier terrorists or indian r rona media taught history.

After gradually wresting control of Bactria from the Scythians and the Indo-Parthians, Kujula Kadphises moved the Kushantribes into the region known as Gandhara (northeast Afghanistan and northern Pakistan) with the main capital located at Taxila (northwestern Pakistan) and the summer capital at Begram (known in ancient times as Kapisa, near the present-day Bagram Air Base), which also served as a major trading cneter.

The rule of Kanishka, the third Kushan emperor, who flourished from the late first to the early/mid-2nd century AD, was administered from two capitals: Purushapura (present-day Peshawar) adn the summer capital complex at Begram (Kapisa), which rivalled the pleasure palaces created by the emperors in Rome or Han dynasty China.

https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh02-08enl.html

the third Kushan emperor flourished from the late first to the early/mid-second century A.D., was administered from two capitals: Purushapura (now Peshawar) near the Khyber Pass, and Mathura in northern India.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kush/hd_kush.htm

Every site will show you their capital as Peshawar which was also the birth place of Kaniska the emperor of Kushan empire.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@EgyptianAmerican Secular as in atheist/agnostic ..Muslims may be many things but they are certainly not atheist/agnostic....Fact remains White people became massively better than any other race on earth after they started seeing the world in a rational agnostic/atheist manner...Japan copied this blueprint and they stole a march over the Asian races..now China has adopted this blueprint and is getting ahead of every other race that is still left behind..I am not talking invention of gunpowder which happened in China...but the refinement of gunpowder into explosive artillery...which happened in Europe

 

[sankranti]

Yeah no, especially since the concept of secularism was invented by a Muslim.

LOL..... this is truly some of the funniest $hit I have heard in a long time.

Did muslims invent gravity too ?

Did you even watch it? They didn't.

Did you ? Yes they did.

I said no SANE person would do such a thing, Buddhist monks aren't sane. They try to deny their basic biological functions for some grade A nonsensical bullshit.

Of course not, Buddhist monks are KAFIRS

Killing them gives you a free pass to heaven.

Then don't bring it up, dipshit.

What makes you think that anyone would be taking advice from a grade 1 jihadi dick like you ?

"According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years beforeHijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur’an ], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, Kitaab al-Tafseer, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-saa`atu Maw`iduhum wa al-sa`atu adhaa wa amarr)

Ayesha was married after Hijrah (migration). Thus, if she could recall that Chapter 54 was revealed, she must have been at least 3-5 years old, plus the 9 years before hijrah, which places her at 12-14 before Hijrah and at least 14-16 before marriage. This makes it impossible that she was 9 or 6.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha‘s (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhudclearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha‘s (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyah al-isti`anah fi al-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:

"When we reached Shajarah."

It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group traveling towardBadr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha‘s (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari,Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Baab Ghazwi al-nisaa wa qitalihinna ma`a al-rijaal.

Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-e-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to save them from any hindrance in their movement].”

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitaab al-maghaazi, Baab ghazwah al-khandaq wa hiya al-ahzaab, Arabic.

Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation.”

This battle took place before Ayesha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad, so now we see that she was at least 15-16 years old.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha(ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayahthat Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. IfAsma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha’s (ra) and Asma’s (ra) Age:

According to Abd al-Rahman ibn abi zannaad:

Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, pg. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risala’h, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] was ten years elder to her sister [i.e. Ayesha]. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933)

For Asma’s (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH

According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] witnessed the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy,Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy:

She [i.e. Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy, Pg. 654, Arabic, Bab fi al-nisaa, al-Harf al-alif, Lucknow)"

- @Sher Shah Awan

There you go, allegation debunked.

This is the standard convoluted defense you guys provided based on assumptions and more assumptions.

Thankfully I do not have to indulge in such whataboutery. I can give your direct quotes.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3896—Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Al-Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he wrote the marriage (wedding) contract with Aishah when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Muslim 3310—Aisha reported: Allah’s Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Muslim 3311—Aisha reported that Allah’s Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Sunan Abu Dawud 2116—Aishah said: The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old. (The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years.) He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.


Sahih al-Bukhari 3894—Narrated Aishah: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years). We came to Al-Madina and we dismounted at the place of Bani Al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on, my hair grew (again) and my mother, Umm Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became normal, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.




And THIS is the final nail in your coffin.

Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)—And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah [see 2:228]. The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

@EgyptianAmerican Secular as in atheist/agnostic ..Muslims may be many things but they are certainly not atheist/agnostic....Fact remains White people became massively better than any other race on earth after they started seeing the world in a rational agnostic/atheist manner...Japan copied this blueprint and they stole a march over the Asian races..now China has adopted this blueprint and is getting ahead of every other race that is still left behind..I am not talking invention of gunpowder which happened in China...but the refinement of gunpowder into explosive artillery...which happened in Europe

White people became massively better after they came in contact with greater civilizations of India and china.

Before being introduced to older civilizations, they continued to be backward and murderous.

Ever wonder WHY they could Not become "rational" before that ?

Explosive artillery itself was used in china by the mongols and by the mugals in India. Way before the white men.

What the white man did was convert that into a portable hand held device called the musket.

In any case, finding more efficient means to killing people is hardly the sign of a "rational" mind. Or did you think Hitler was "rational" ?

 

[Kaushika]

Sankranti,

1-5 is true of most civilisations/societies- so how come only we had sati? and only sati, no sataa?

Regards

Why your priests only rape younger boys amd not girls ?

 

[khanmubashir]

1. There are records of only a handful satis. Not "millions".

2. Since Brhama is not a "Man", he has NO FEET you fool. Its a METAPHOR.

3. No good will come from an illiterate man "touching" a scripture. Islamic invasions PROVED it beyond doubt.

4. Jews were ALWAYS a TINY ethnicity UNLIKE the Hindus who filled up a whole CONTINENT. The same continues to remain true today.

5. I am talking about forced conversion in pakistan and bangladesh. India is STILL HINDU.



I have already told you that you are free to do Sataa. So what is the problem ?

1. There are records of only a handful satis. Not "millions".

2. Since Brhama is not a "Man", he has NO FEET you fool. Its a METAPHOR.

3. No good will come from an illiterate man "touching" a scripture. Islamic invasions PROVED it beyond doubt.

4. Jews were ALWAYS a TINY ethnicity UNLIKE the Hindus who filled up a whole CONTINENT. The same continues to remain true today.

5. I am talking about forced conversion in pakistan and bangladesh. India is STILL HINDU.



I have already told you that you are free to do Sataa. So what is the problem ?

Thus, a main view that Altekar espoused is that the spread of sati increased over time (with local variations, for example reductions in territories governed by zealous rulers hostile to the practice), and probably was close to a maximum when the British began to intervene in the first decades of the nineteenth century.[81]
Wiki sati
As brshama not being a man I know it's mythology metaphor bit if I call u a dog doesn't literally mean I think of u as canine but means I think u to b disgusting and expressing metaphorically same kind of disgust was expressed by upper caste Hindi for fellow lower caste metaphorically and also physically like those thousands of dalit pit to death or limbs chopped off for minor issue like limb chopped off for minor issue like quarrel with brahmin touching him going to mandir etc in your hindutva Golden age and and even today stories frequently come up of dalit abise like destruction of there billages mass killing on minor caste issue killing for collecting dead cows hide
And again I asked for u post reliable source of mass forced conversion in India as I said forced conversion was rarity in India otherwise u would b muslim

 

[sankranti]

Why your priests only rape younger boys amd not girls ?

That bigot is a Hindu hater and a Hindu baiter.

Sati and its equivalent was prevalent all over the world across civilizations.

1. In the 1886 published Hobson-Jobson, Henry Yule and Arthur Coke Burnell mention the practice of Suttee (sati) as an early custom of Russians near Volga, tribes of Thracians in southeast Europe, and some tribes of Tonga and Fiji islands.[24] Yule and Burnell also compiled a few dozen excerpts of historical descriptions of sati, the first being of Ceteus (or Keteus) mentioned above in 317 BC, and then a few before the 9th century AD, where the widow of a king had the choice to burn with him or abstain. Most of the compiled list on sati, by Yule and Burnell, date from 1200 AD through the 1870s AD.[24]


2. The archaeologist Elena Efimovna Kuzmina enlists clear parallels between the burial practices of the ancient Asiatic steppe Andronovo cultures (fl. 1800–1400 BC) and the Vedic Age.[25] In Kuzmina's archaeological definition, sati is understood as a double burial, the co-cremation of a man and a woman/wife, a feature to be found in both cultures.[26] Kuzʹmina states that in the Androvo culture and Vedic age, the practice was never strictly observed and was symbolic.[27]

The sacrifice of widow(s) or a great man's retainers at his death is attested in various Indo-European cultures outside of India. As an example where the widows vied for the honour to die with their common husband, the 5th-century BC historian Herodotus mentions the Krestones tribe among the old Thracians. The woman found to have been held highest in the husband's favour while he lived had her throat slit on his grave, the surviving wives reputedly regarding it as a great shame to have to live on.[28] Citing 6th-century AD Procopius from his "Gothic Wars", Edward Gibbon notes that among the Germanic tribe of the Heruli, a widow typically hanged herself upon her husband's tomb.[29]


3. The early 14th-century traveller Odoric of Pordenone mentions wife burning in Zampa (Champa), in nowadays south/central Vietnam.[30][note 2] Anant Altekar states that sati spread with Hindu migrants to Southeast Asian islands, such as to Java, Sumatra and Bali.[32] According to Dutch colonial records, this was however a rare practice in Indonesia, one found in royal households.[33]


Description of the Balinese rite of self-sacrifice or Suttee, in Houtman's 1597 Verhael vande Reyse ... Naer Oost Indien
In Cambodia, both the lords and the wives of a dead king voluntarily burnt themselves in the 15th and 16th centuries.[34][note 3]According to European traveller accounts, in 15th century Mergui, in present-day extreme south Myanmar, widow burning was practiced.[37] A Chinese pilgrim from the 15th century seems to attest the practice on islands called Ma-i-tung and Ma-i (possibly Belitung(outside Sumatra) and Northern Philippines, respectively).[38]


4. Chinese sociology studies that followed suggest that the practice was historically more widespread, far removed from India (near the Korean peninsula), and found among the Manchu people of China where a widow would ritually commit suicide after her husband died (Chinese: xunsi, congxun).[42][43][44] After her suicide, she was socially celebrated as a virtuous chaste widow.[43][45][note 4] This Altaic tradition was not limited to the Manchu people of China, but also found in other Chinese ethnic groups.[47] The practice of self-immolation and other forms of public suicide by widows were observed, for example, in Fukien province of southeast China, in some cases in duress after a rape attempt and in other cases voluntarily without duress.[48]


5. A similar practice of widow suicide to follow her husband or fiancé, states Hai-soon Lee, existed in medieval Korea, in accordance with the traditional Confucian ethos.[49] According to Martina Deuchler, this practice was praised as misok (beautiful custom), and the dead widow praised as "faithful wife", in the historic Korean culture and literature.[50]

Historical documents attest to the public self-immolation practice (self cremation, as shaoshen 燒身 or zifen 自焚)[51] among Buddhist nuns (and monks) in ancient and medieval China for religious reasons.[52][53][54] This was considered as evidence of a renunciant bodhisattva, and may have been inspired by the Jataka tales wherein the Buddha in his earlier lives immolates himself to assist other living beings,[55] or teachings in the Lotus Sutra.[56] The Chinese Buddhist asceticism practices, states James Benn, were not an adaptation or import of Indian ascetic practices, but an invention of Chinese Buddhists, based on their unique interpretations of Buddhists texts.[57] It may be an adoption of more ancient pre-Buddhist Chinese practices.[58][59]


6. A well-known case is that of the 10th-century AD ship burial of the Rus' described by Ibn Fadlan. Here, when a female slave had said she would be willing to die, her body was subsequently burned with her master on the pyre.[63]



7. Early 20th-century pioneering anthropologist James G. Frazer, for example, thought that the legendary Greek story of Capaneus, whose wife Evadne threw herself on his funeral pyre, might be a relic of an earlier custom of live widow-burning.[64] The strangling of widows after their husbands' deaths are attested from as disparate cultures as the Natchez people in present-day US state Louisiana, to a number of Pacific Islander cultures.[65]

 

[Destrius]

The practice of a Sati is quite understandable, considering the alternative was being made into a sex slave.

 

[sankranti]

Thus, a main view that Altekar espoused is that the spread of sati increased over time (with local variations, for example reductions in territories governed by zealous rulers hostile to the practice), and probably was close to a maximum when the British began to intervene in the first decades of the nineteenth century.[81]
Wiki sati

Do you think the Islamic invasion had anything to do with it ?

Sati and Jauhar both peaked during the invasion of the barbaric jihadis.

As brshama not being a man I know it's mythology metaphor bit if I call u a dog doesn't literally mean I think of u as canine but means I think u to b disgusting and expressing metaphorically same kind of disgust was expressed by upper caste Hindi for fellow lower caste metaphorically and also physically like those thousands of dalit pit to death or limbs chopped off for minor issue like limb chopped off for minor issue like quarrel with brahmin touching him going to mandir etc in your hindutva Golden age and and even today stories frequently come up of dalit abise like destruction of there billages mass killing on minor caste issue killing for collecting dead cows hide
And again I asked for u post reliable source of mass forced conversion in India as I said forced conversion was rarity in India otherwise u would b muslim

Nice story

 

[Kaushika]

Mazdayasna

Remember my name, when those retarded gujju waanabe Aryan, Cuck bangali p*aki asslicker and ricebag convert try to team up again, feel free to call this dogra for help.

 

[sankranti]

Remember my name, when those retarded gujju waanabe Aryan, Cuck bangali p*aki asslicker and ricebag convert try to team up again, feel free to call this dogra for help.

I don't need help to take on these cowards. They neither have the balls nor the brains to take me on.

But thanks for the offer.

The practice of a Sati is quite understandable, considering the alternative was being made into a sex slave.

That is the story of how Hindu Nun's who dedicated their lives to god, called Dev Dasi's, were forced to become prostitutes.

The joys of islamic rule.

 

[Pakistani E]

This is the standard convoluted defense you guys provided based on assumptions and more assumptions.

Thankfully I do not have to indulge in such whataboutery. I can give your direct quotes.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3896—Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Al-Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he wrote the marriage (wedding) contract with Aishah when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Muslim 3310—Aisha reported: Allah’s Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Muslim 3311—Aisha reported that Allah’s Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Sunan Abu Dawud 2116—Aishah said: The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old. (The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years.) He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.


Sahih al-Bukhari 3894—Narrated Aishah: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years). We came to Al-Madina and we dismounted at the place of Bani Al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on, my hair grew (again) and my mother, Umm Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became normal, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.




And THIS is the final nail in your coffin.

Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)—And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah [see 2:228]. The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

That which you dismissed as assumptions are actual historical facts, it does look like you did not read them and went back to that same website to find the above like another poster did on a previous thread.

I have already spoken with you another thread so really don't consider you worthy of replying to, you are one of those sanghis who think they have some great intellectual capability because you are able to copy and paste from western sourced websites so it makes you a scholar of everything Islamic.

But let me explain once again the science of hadith for the benefit of others. Every hadith has to be judged from several different factors before it can be accepted, it depends on verifying the chain of the narrators as well as the actual words. If there is even a slight doubt on the narrators or the validity of that narrative chain, it has to be rejected and if it also rejects the Qur'an or other Hadiths or any other confirmed aspects of historical setting, then it also has to be rejected.

But I really don't believe you are interested in this discussion purely from an objective historical point of view, you are here on PDF for a certain reason, and we all know what that reason is. But I will indulge in this, not for your sake, but to educate any who are still in doubt from within the Muslim community.

Critics cite that Tabari, Abu Dawood, and Bukhari also says Ayesha was 9. Such critics miss the point on Hisham ibn `urwah. They are unaware of the fact that each one these traditions, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawood, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:“narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.” It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 – 51).

The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [i.e. Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqalaaniy, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

All the hadith Hisham related regarding the age of Ayesha are from the time he was in Iraq. From a historical and evidentiary perspective, this already puts into severe doubt the veracity of such claims.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living inMedinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 – 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

When he was old, Hisham‘s memory suffered quite badly (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, Al-Zahabi, Arabic, Al-Maktabah al-Athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, pg. 301).

So now we have evidence that when Hisham related the traditions related to Ayesha’s age, he did so while his memory suffered severely. Already, no court of law would consider such testimony valid, not even in a civil court where the burden of proof is quite low compared to a criminal court.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before`umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), whenKhaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha‘s (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word “bikr” in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is “Jariyah“. “Bikr” on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a “lady”.

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227 – 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra), the daughter of Prophet Muhammad, was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar‘s original statement, its translation and reference follows:

Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Kaa`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old… she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-Isabah fi Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-Haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha‘s (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha‘s age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha‘s (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and the other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

@EgyptianAmerican

 

[sankranti]

That which you dismissed as assumptions are actual historical facts, it does look like you did not read them and went back to that same website to find the above like another poster did on a previous thread.

I have already spoken with you another thread so really don't consider you worthy of replying to, you are one of those sanghis who think they have some great intellectual capability because you are able to copy and paste from western sourced websites so it makes you a scholar of everything Islamic.

But let me explain once again the science of hadith for the benefit of others. Every hadith has to be judged from several different factors before it can be accepted, it depends on verifying the chain of the narrators as well as the actual words. If there is even a slight doubt on the narrators or the validity of that narrative chain, it has to be rejected and if it also rejects the Qur'an or other Hadiths or any other confirmed aspects of historical setting, then it also has to be rejected.

But I really don't believe you are interested in this discussion purely from an objective historical point of view, you are here on PDF for a certain reason, and we all know what that reason is. But I will indulge in this, not for your sake, but to educate any who are still in doubt from within the Muslim community.

Critics cite that Tabari, Abu Dawood, and Bukhari also says Ayesha was 9. Such critics miss the point on Hisham ibn `urwah. They are unaware of the fact that each one these traditions, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawood, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:“narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.” It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 – 51).

The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [i.e. Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqalaaniy, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

All the hadith Hisham related regarding the age of Ayesha are from the time he was in Iraq. From a historical and evidentiary perspective, this already puts into severe doubt the veracity of such claims.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living inMedinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 – 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

When he was old, Hisham‘s memory suffered quite badly (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, Al-Zahabi, Arabic, Al-Maktabah al-Athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, pg. 301).

So now we have evidence that when Hisham related the traditions related to Ayesha’s age, he did so while his memory suffered severely. Already, no court of law would consider such testimony valid, not even in a civil court where the burden of proof is quite low compared to a criminal court.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before`umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), whenKhaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha‘s (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word “bikr” in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is “Jariyah“. “Bikr” on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a “lady”.

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227 – 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra), the daughter of Prophet Muhammad, was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar‘s original statement, its translation and reference follows:

Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Kaa`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old… she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-Isabah fi Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-Haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha‘s (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha‘s age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha‘s (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and the other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

@EgyptianAmerican

My intentions are pretty transparent. I do not gives a rat's @ss about islam or its history.

But the moral of the story is "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones".

There are a few ignorant bigots who live in a well and think they can get away with being a smart @ss. My posts are a reminder that what goes around, comes around. And this goes to whoever it may concern.

So if any body else has an itch about hinduism, I will be certain to remind them about the itch in islam.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@sankranti sorry..we have to agree to disagree...explosive shells were nver made in India...and the 18th century Western Enlightenent is its own thing..I can make the argument that seeds of atheism was already there in Rig Veda and India had a full fledged atheist school of thought..But the hordes of stupid theists overwhelmed budding rationality in India...even if India did sporadic science and mathematics, there was never a massive qualitative leap in civilization the way we have seen in the West over last 200 years...from the horse to the edges of the Solar System and beyond......

Muslims still believe in the pegasus,Hindus still believe in the supernormal powers of Yogis...Atheists on the other hand believe in nothing without overwhelming scientific evidence


And yes it is very rational to wipe out your enemy and his lineage before he can do the same to you..more power to the people who think like that...If India had more of them, Maratha Empire would have been constructed in the 13th century itself

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Secular as in atheist/agnostic ..Muslims may be many things but they are certainly not atheist/agnostic..

No it isn't, secularism is the belief that religion should have no bearing in government. The government isn't for or against religion, it simply doesn't acknowledge it in governance.

Ibn Rushd is considered the father of Secularism, look it up. Common historical fact.
Ibn Rushd: Father of Secularism
http://iheu.org/ibn-rushd-father-of-secularism/

" He has been described as the founding father of secular thought in Western Europe and “one of the spiritual fathers of Europe."

.Fact remains White people became massively better than any other race on earth after they started seeing the world in a rational agnostic/atheist manner.

Yeah no, especially since agnostics and atheists existed pretty much everywhere at every point in history.

LOL..... this is truly some of the funniest $hit I have heard in a long time.

Ibn Rushd is considered the father of Secularism.

Ibn Rushd: Father of Secularism
http://iheu.org/ibn-rushd-father-of-secularism/

That which you dismissed as assumptions are actual historical facts, it does look like you did not read them and went back to that same website to find the above like another poster did on a previous thread.

I have already spoken with you another thread so really don't consider you worthy of replying to, you are one of those sanghis who think they have some great intellectual capability because you are able to copy and paste from western sourced websites so it makes you a scholar of everything Islamic.

But let me explain once again the science of hadith for the benefit of others. Every hadith has to be judged from several different factors before it can be accepted, it depends on verifying the chain of the narrators as well as the actual words. If there is even a slight doubt on the narrators or the validity of that narrative chain, it has to be rejected and if it also rejects the Qur'an or other Hadiths or any other confirmed aspects of historical setting, then it also has to be rejected.

But I really don't believe you are interested in this discussion purely from an objective historical point of view, you are here on PDF for a certain reason, and we all know what that reason is. But I will indulge in this, not for your sake, but to educate any who are still in doubt from within the Muslim community.

Critics cite that Tabari, Abu Dawood, and Bukhari also says Ayesha was 9. Such critics miss the point on Hisham ibn `urwah. They are unaware of the fact that each one these traditions, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawood, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:“narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.” It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 – 51).

The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [i.e. Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqalaaniy, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)

All the hadith Hisham related regarding the age of Ayesha are from the time he was in Iraq. From a historical and evidentiary perspective, this already puts into severe doubt the veracity of such claims.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living inMedinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 – 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

When he was old, Hisham‘s memory suffered quite badly (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, Al-Zahabi, Arabic, Al-Maktabah al-Athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, pg. 301).

So now we have evidence that when Hisham related the traditions related to Ayesha’s age, he did so while his memory suffered severely. Already, no court of law would consider such testimony valid, not even in a civil court where the burden of proof is quite low compared to a criminal court.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before`umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), whenKhaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha‘s (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word “bikr” in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is “Jariyah“. “Bikr” on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a “lady”.

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.
According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227 – 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra), the daughter of Prophet Muhammad, was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar‘s original statement, its translation and reference follows:

Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Kaa`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old… she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-Isabah fi Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-Haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha‘s (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha‘s (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha‘s age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha‘s (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and the other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

@EgyptianAmerican

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@EgyptianAmerican By secular rationalist, I mean people who think that Scientific Method is the only valid way of obtaining knowledge about the world, not prophecy,prayer,scripture,meditation,spiritual inspiration,divine Revelation......Such people flourished on a continuous basis only in White countries 18th century onwards......and this is what gave them strength...China,Japan are leading example of secular rationalist societies these days..

It is not relevant whether religion is divorced from politics, if majority of the people in the polity are super religious holding absurd views like Jesus flying off into space, people riding to the moon on flying horses, Yogis making themselves invisible and teleporting themselves through meditation, ghosts are real, poltergeists can kill people

If the top 25% of that country holds that view of the world, separation of religion and politics will do that country no good.......Could post Ibn-Rushd Arabian Empire/Andalucia make a NASA like organization? yeah right I guess not


that we were stumbling in the dark for over 2000 years after Aristotle, and it took only 200 years to get out of the Solar System is because religious, magical, supernatural thinking was holding us back