Featured No Buyers For Rafale Jets: Why Almost Every Country Dumped French Rafales Except India?

[T90TankGuy]

Ironically eurasian times is owned by Mukesh Ambani !

 

[Trailer23]

US offered India a much more advanced version than even the block 72 and a full make in India production line.

Looks like IAF really screwed the pooch on this one. Although, i'm not sure if you're accurate 'bout the 'FULL Make in India Production Line".

Rafale is a newer design, twin engine jet that soundly beat out all the rest in the MMRCA competition. ...nothing even comes close as far as 4.5 gen is concerned.

It's just a really good fighter and has seen action in the middle east.

The F-21 with the F-35 DNA (5th Gen) would've annihilated the Rafale. The only thing the US didn't do was have a prototype of the F-21. Probably because they knew at the back of their head that India wouldn't want an upgraded F-16.

Limited Action. None of those have been Air-to-Air. Dropping a bomb front 30,000ft isn't something to boost 'bout. We've been doing that in North Waziristan with our JF-17 (Block I) for over a decade.

Also, 36 for the IAF is a joke, it's a certainty that a LOT more will be joining the fleet. Perhaps a follow up order of another 36, and then some more. We don't know what form the rest of the acquisition process will look like but rest assured there are more coming for IAF, and who knows.. maybe the navy as well.

The order of 36 has spun your Economy down the drain. Additional order will flush the rest down too (not that we're complaining).

Nobody in their right mind would pick F-16 over Rafale

That is where you're wrong. If PAF didn't have 4 decades on the F-16, the F-21 was a sure-shot and may not have costed so much.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

MKI is flying with shorter range missiles, as well as mediocre and dated electronics. It might have been king 15 years ago, times have changed now. Both air forces will field AESA equipped fighters, these newer generation radars beat the Bars PESA in every possible metric, and without the desperate Derby ER addition to the MKI, it’s disadvantaged even against our older F-16s, nevermind AESA and PL-15 combo that will be enjoyed by both PLAAF and PAF.

Let’s not get in to what happened last year with the MKI. You guys produced the wreck of an amraam in suspiciously quick time for someone claiming they dodged it, it was also an exploded case, ever wondered what it struck? Meanwhile we claimed we bagged an MKI kill over your territory, much more can be said besides this in the way the two sides reacted. Let’s leave it at that.

I'm completely agreed with missile range game.

Also, There is no doubt that su 30 mki needs to upgrade with ASEA and minimum 160-200 km bvr missiles...

But shooting down f 16 and su 30 mki claims are just BS from both sides

 

[cloud4000]

India is not the only country to have bought the Rafale, so have Egypt and Qatar. Still, this article is filled with sour grapes. Not surprising, since it's a Russian source.

 

[Microsoft]

And US striction free attached..

The 'striction' Indians are still crying about from Feb 27?

 

[Lincoln]

As per several PDFers J-10 was supposedly an option for the PAF

In an export variant. Yes. Due to the relationship, you can expect such things. China can roll out export variants for Pakistan. But generally speaking, they have yet to offer J-10 to any country.

 

[Vikram1]

The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector.

Published
16 hours ago
on August 2, 2020

While India is celebrating the arrival of its Rafale jets, military experts have not only questioned its capabilities against US aircraft but also raised questions why the Rafale jets failed to compete in the international arms markets and got dumped by a majority of nations?
Dassault’s Rafale was not India’s only choice as various other global firms expressed interest in the MMRCA tender. Six renowned aircraft manufacturers competed to bag the contract of 126 jets, which was hailed to be the largest-ever defence acquisition deal of India.

The initial bidders were Lockheed Martin’s F-16s, Boeing’s F/A-18s, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russia’s MiG-35, Sweden’s Saab’s Gripen and Dassault’s Rafale.

All aircraft were tested by the IAF and after careful analysis on the bids, two of them — Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale — were shortlisted.

Dassault received the contract to provide 126 fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder and the aircraft was said to be easy to maintain. After Rafale won the contract, the Indian side and Dassault started negotiations in 2012. Though the initial plan was to buy 126 jets, India scaled it down to 36, that too in fly-away condition.

No Buyers For Rafale Jets?

Despite boasting of awe-inspiring capabilities and selected by India after a mammoth testing & bidding process, the French origin jets didn’t see many buyers. Other than France and India, only Qatar and Egypt are using Rafale jets and that too in very limited numbers.

As reported earlier by EurAsian Times, Russian aviation experts had claimed that Rafale jets would have been useless against the Chinese Airforce (PLAAF). The maximum speed of the Rafale jet is about Mach 1.8 compared to Chinese J-16s at Mach 2.2. The Rafale’s practical ceiling is also lower than the J-16s. Even in engine thrust, the Chinese J-16s aka Russian Su-35s are far superior to the French combat aircraft. Even if the Indian Air Force (IAF) was to deploy all 36 of its newly acquired jets, the technical superiority would still be on the side of China, claimed the Russian expert.

The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector, along with the small scale on which the Rafale is being produced in comparison to rival fighters such as the F-18, MiG-29 or F-35 due to which Rafale has not benefitted from economies of scale. This has contributed to its poor performance in the international markets.

Analysts believe that a major hindrance to the Rafale’s success is that it combines a high cost with a very light and unspecialised airframe, meaning that for countries seeking out a high-end fighter, they will turn to look towards something heavier and with more capabilities like the F-15 or Su-35, while for those seeking a cheap medium or lightweight fighter the F-16V, F-18E or MiG-35 would be more cost-effective.

South Korea and Singapore selected the powerful F-15 over Rafale in the 2000s. In 2015, Egypt purchased 24 of those jets – with an option for 12 more – under a wider arms agreement with France.

The following year, in 2016, the two sides entered into a dialogue with Egypt possibly exercising that option, or even expanding the order up to 24 jets. However, even with high-level dialogue between Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and French President Emmanuel Macron, Cairo and Paris didn’t finalise the deal. Instead, Egypt inked a deal with Russia to purchase “over two dozen” Su-35 fighter jets.

“Indian media is celebrating the arrival of five Rafales as if they won a war against China. If Rafale is so good, why Oman, Korea, Singapore, Libya, Kuwait, Canada, Brazil, Belgium, UAE, Switzerland, Malaysia refused to buy it. Besides India, only Qatar & Egypt have bought it,” tweeted Ashok Swain, Professor of Peace and Conflict Research, UNESCO Chair of International Water Cooperation.

Rafale’s third buyer, India, previously proposed to acquire 126 jets under Make in India and not 36. However, it took five years for even the first five jets to arrive in India after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced it in April 2015 during his trip to France.

According to Snehesh Alex Philip’s opinion piece in ThePrint, beneath the celebration of the arrival of Rafale jets, lies the harsh reality of India’s painfully slow defence purchases. The Rafale deal and a plethora of procurement, now being done under the emergency clause in the wake of tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), exposes the malaise that continues to shadow India’s defence procurement and planning. “Merely having a large standing Army or an Air Force with aircraft flying on an extended lease of life and without much use against modern weaponry of the enemy, cannot be India’s answer,” he wrote.

According to analysts, despite heavy marketing by the makers of Rafale, France’s relatively small and inefficient defence sector seems to have met its limit with the fighter program. The small production lines are unable to produce the aircraft quickly or efficiently and the French budget for research and development is smaller in contrast to the US or Russia.

The aircraft is priced very steeply and most nations prefer to buy US jets not only because of the technical superiority but also to please the Americans instead of the French. The Rafales have seemingly lost the fight in the international market, despite boasting of excellent qualities.

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-buyers...y-country-dumped-french-rafales-except-india/

I thought it is not available with aid and soft loan and these are biggest reason for less buyers.

 

[HalfMoon]

According to the French government,the flyaway cost of a Rafale as of economic conditions of 2014 was as follow ;

€78M for a Rafale M (Naval version)
€73M for a Rafale B (Two seater)
€68M for a Rafale C (Single seat)

The €8 billion package India paid includes offsets (half of that cost,invested back in India),training,new infrastructures to induct a new type of aircrafts into the Indian air force,maintenance packages..... undisclosed number of air to ground bombs and air to air missiles,key Indian demands regarding the integration of specific weapons and systems etc.

Proof that French are great salesmen while Indians are low IQ idiots.

Not only French have succeeded in selling a 20 year old archaic fighter at an exorbitant price but also is able to force their failed Falcon business jet on the India in the name of offsets.

Low IQ Indians are really gullible.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

IAF has what some 70 platforms now? What a logistical nightmare!
...
The defence babus have done a fine job at screwing up Ind defence procurements.

It's as if their incompetency cancels out much of our lack of progress due to economic limitations.

 

[HalfMoon]

 

[HalfMoon]

Ironically eurasian times is owned by Mukesh Ambani !

Why ironic? The Rafale deal was with Anil's reliance.

It is the ongoing war between the brothers.

 

[N.Siddiqui]

But shooting down f 16 and su 30 mki claims are just BS from both sides

India claiming the F-16 kill is more likely to balance the shooting down of Su-30 Mki....as F-16 kill is as big for Pakistan as it is the Su-30 Mki for India, if no Su-30 MKi is shot down, why India is claiming the F-16 being shot down....talking about 'we are better/bigger than you' narrative.

 

[-=virus=-]

Looks like IAF really screwed the pooch on this one. Although, i'm not sure if you're accurate 'bout the 'FULL Make in India Production Line".

The F-21 with the F-35 DNA (5th Gen) would've annihilated the Rafale. The only thing the US didn't do was have a prototype of the F-21. Probably because they knew at the back of their head that India wouldn't want an upgraded F-16.

I have mixed feelings about the F-21 tbh, it was a sweet sweet carrot they dangled there.

Maybe twin engine was a requirement, not entirely sure. Also Dassault is a known quantity to IAF and the Mirage2ks have a great record.

The full production line bit was true, but obviously engines and some other equipment would have been sent here. Part assembly/part production may be more accurate.

Also, it's not a 100% off the table and canned for good forever. They could still go for it, but it looks unlikely. Policy makers here seem to have given preference to Tejas and are planning a big order, also not a bad decision because it'll give a leg up to local defence manufacture.. much badly needed if you look long term.

Limited Action. None of those have been Air-to-Air. Dropping a bomb front 30,000ft isn't something to boost 'bout. We've been doing that in North Waziristan with our JF-17 (Block I) for over a decade.

Yes, limited action but the threat environment was still vastly different from what PAF faced in the tribal areas. Over Syria, Iraq and Libya.. Syria in particular, there was a SAM threat to contend with + the Russians and Syrians were also flying their planes although there was probably some level of co-ordination between the anti ISIS factions.

Rafales in Afghanistan is closest to the zero threat that PAF faced in waziristan.

Good though, it means the air to ground munitions have also been battle tested.

Typhoons are notoriously expensive to maintain, that, plus other factors made it lose out to the Rafale in the end.

It's a good plane, a seriously potent platform. It'll be upgraded over the years and serve India well for decades to come.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector.

Published
16 hours ago
on August 2, 2020

While India is celebrating the arrival of its Rafale jets, military experts have not only questioned its capabilities against US aircraft but also raised questions why the Rafale jets failed to compete in the international arms markets and got dumped by a majority of nations?
Dassault’s Rafale was not India’s only choice as various other global firms expressed interest in the MMRCA tender. Six renowned aircraft manufacturers competed to bag the contract of 126 jets, which was hailed to be the largest-ever defence acquisition deal of India.

The initial bidders were Lockheed Martin’s F-16s, Boeing’s F/A-18s, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russia’s MiG-35, Sweden’s Saab’s Gripen and Dassault’s Rafale.

All aircraft were tested by the IAF and after careful analysis on the bids, two of them — Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale — were shortlisted.

Dassault received the contract to provide 126 fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder and the aircraft was said to be easy to maintain. After Rafale won the contract, the Indian side and Dassault started negotiations in 2012. Though the initial plan was to buy 126 jets, India scaled it down to 36, that too in fly-away condition.

No Buyers For Rafale Jets?

Despite boasting of awe-inspiring capabilities and selected by India after a mammoth testing & bidding process, the French origin jets didn’t see many buyers. Other than France and India, only Qatar and Egypt are using Rafale jets and that too in very limited numbers.

As reported earlier by EurAsian Times, Russian aviation experts had claimed that Rafale jets would have been useless against the Chinese Airforce (PLAAF). The maximum speed of the Rafale jet is about Mach 1.8 compared to Chinese J-16s at Mach 2.2. The Rafale’s practical ceiling is also lower than the J-16s. Even in engine thrust, the Chinese J-16s aka Russian Su-35s are far superior to the French combat aircraft. Even if the Indian Air Force (IAF) was to deploy all 36 of its newly acquired jets, the technical superiority would still be on the side of China, claimed the Russian expert.

The Rafale is one of the most expensive aircraft in the international market. India’s deal of 36 jets is worth Rs. 60,000 crores. Experts argue that the high cost is the result of many reasons including general inefficiency in the country’s defence sector, along with the small scale on which the Rafale is being produced in comparison to rival fighters such as the F-18, MiG-29 or F-35 due to which Rafale has not benefitted from economies of scale. This has contributed to its poor performance in the international markets.

Analysts believe that a major hindrance to the Rafale’s success is that it combines a high cost with a very light and unspecialised airframe, meaning that for countries seeking out a high-end fighter, they will turn to look towards something heavier and with more capabilities like the F-15 or Su-35, while for those seeking a cheap medium or lightweight fighter the F-16V, F-18E or MiG-35 would be more cost-effective.

South Korea and Singapore selected the powerful F-15 over Rafale in the 2000s. In 2015, Egypt purchased 24 of those jets – with an option for 12 more – under a wider arms agreement with France.

The following year, in 2016, the two sides entered into a dialogue with Egypt possibly exercising that option, or even expanding the order up to 24 jets. However, even with high-level dialogue between Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and French President Emmanuel Macron, Cairo and Paris didn’t finalise the deal. Instead, Egypt inked a deal with Russia to purchase “over two dozen” Su-35 fighter jets.

“Indian media is celebrating the arrival of five Rafales as if they won a war against China. If Rafale is so good, why Oman, Korea, Singapore, Libya, Kuwait, Canada, Brazil, Belgium, UAE, Switzerland, Malaysia refused to buy it. Besides India, only Qatar & Egypt have bought it,” tweeted Ashok Swain, Professor of Peace and Conflict Research, UNESCO Chair of International Water Cooperation.

Rafale’s third buyer, India, previously proposed to acquire 126 jets under Make in India and not 36. However, it took five years for even the first five jets to arrive in India after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced it in April 2015 during his trip to France.

According to Snehesh Alex Philip’s opinion piece in ThePrint, beneath the celebration of the arrival of Rafale jets, lies the harsh reality of India’s painfully slow defence purchases. The Rafale deal and a plethora of procurement, now being done under the emergency clause in the wake of tensions at the Line of Actual Control (LAC), exposes the malaise that continues to shadow India’s defence procurement and planning. “Merely having a large standing Army or an Air Force with aircraft flying on an extended lease of life and without much use against modern weaponry of the enemy, cannot be India’s answer,” he wrote.

According to analysts, despite heavy marketing by the makers of Rafale, France’s relatively small and inefficient defence sector seems to have met its limit with the fighter program. The small production lines are unable to produce the aircraft quickly or efficiently and the French budget for research and development is smaller in contrast to the US or Russia.

The aircraft is priced very steeply and most nations prefer to buy US jets not only because of the technical superiority but also to please the Americans instead of the French. The Rafales have seemingly lost the fight in the international market, despite boasting of excellent qualities.

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-buyers...y-country-dumped-french-rafales-except-india/

Only India buys Rafale jets because they aren't intended for fighting India's adversaries. They are intended for parades and boosting the wounded ego of Indian BJP leaders.

 

[Rank]

Well, you have to understand my friend, the equation had always been like this, if India bought Rafales or not.
India didn't buy from the UK. But you think UK is going to back Pakistan ever! Off course not.

For two reasons. India is a brain child of the UK. It has given it on the platter to the Nazi minded Hindus. Anyone is under any illusion, the BJP et al had been around , they existed before independence. Congress is no better, neither were Nahro or Gandhi.

Pakistan is a Muslim country. That characteristic itself is a disqualifications for most sophisticated weapons and technology.

As for Russia, when India would stand on the other side of a great war, everything would change in a jiffy.

I'm. Astonished on Indian establishments RSS orinted thinking that pakistan is the major threat?
While China is breaking all the doors of thier home from Nepal to mezuram then to seven sister states sikham all are in deep waters and will remain in those deep waters for a long time to come.
while indian govt is just intersted of its political advantage by using pakistan as its punching bag for wining elections?
It's not matters what India has buyed, and will use against what threat, but this is a changing world, EU isn't willing much to be under American control anymore and when it comes to $$$ China stands before india with its huge full of money in the hands of middle class?
So what u think If France just has to decide on the basis of money then China won't be its better partner?
I gss, ur mind is bieng turned around by the 24 hours live coverege RAFAEL comming to India???
While mistakenly thinking india is the only financial power in this world????
For Russia, thanks india dumped it for its MMRCA deal, right now it's really angry on India as mentioned report for RAFAELs bieng comming from Russian experts!!!!
It opens a huge door for Russia to show up with its huge tech in the hands of Pakistan and let it beat India in the air?
As stratgicly, INDIA has gone into US laps Russia don't consider India as its trusted friend as it was back in cold War time?
Instaed both Russia and China see India as part of threat which been developed by USA in South China sea, so above all india stands with USA anchoring all its stakes on it, times are changing fast when india won't find any good friends among Asia anymore, cause no one is ready in reality to face China and Russia in any war right now?
It's a good time for pakistan to go ahead for SU35, MIG35 or SU57 jets from Russia and get new engines for its JFT 17 BLK 4 and some more gadgets from Russia this time and cement its relationship with Russia as both are comming near stratigcly at a lighting speed!

Indians are very smart my friend, they know very well that Pakistan doesn't have money to buy top of the line fighter jets for example Eurofighter, F-35. F-18 etc nor anyone offer to Pakistan because of "Muslim" tag. So what Pakistan can actually do with its limited number of resources and budget? obviously try to grab western avionics when it comes to fighter jets. Which country has the capability, capacity, and experiences of the manufacturing world's best avionics and third party mil hardware? as far as I know France other than Americans and Russians. So, by signing this deal India has blocked the 2nd option for Pakistan in terms of avionics and we had witnessed in JF17 thunder case.

Hint: The mid-life upgradation of PN 90B contract signed btw Pakistan and "TURKEY" not France
bye bye French!