No aircraft engines to Pak, please

[blain2]

Has Russia offered to you anything after they sold us the MKI or Mig 21 in the 70s.

French doesnt mix foreign policy with arms sale,they sell anything to anybody.

Yes how about MI-17s? And there are more on order as I write this. Things are not as India-centric as you would like to believe.

 

[Cheetah786]

Well, right now everything looks very rosy, but prior to that we were also under embargo which scuttled the development plans of LCA. And yeah we with LCA we were trying to make aplane of our own,if it was to getting everything from outside then we are doing the same with the MKI.

U.S. Sanctions Against India; Arms Export Control Act; Impact on Exports

By James M. Zimmerman of Morrison & Foerster LLP

This morning, May 13, 1998, the U.S. imposed harsh economic sanctions upon the Government of India as a result of its detonation of nuclear devices this week. The purpose of this memo is to provide the firm's clients and colleagues with information concerning the legal and business-related issues pertaining to the sanctions order.

Contrary to some press reports, and as more specifically addressed below, the sanctions are effective immediately. Most trade sanctions orders are imposed with warning, which allows companies to assess the impact and plan accordingly. Here, there has been no warning and no time to prepare. Although the President had the statutory authority to delay sanctions for a period of 30 days, he chose to impose sanctions immediately to send a clear message to the Indian government.

Based upon the information received to date, the immediate impact concerns the following:

Pending applications with the ExImBank for export projects to India are suspended, which includes approximately $500 million in pending loans or loan guarantees and approximately $3.5 billion in projects at the pre-application stage. Applications that have been approved and in place will not be affected by the sanctions. Construction companies, power generation equipment suppliers, electric utility plant builders, and other firms with infrastructure projects in India will be affected in some manner.
Pending applications for insurance with the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) are suspended. This includes approximately $10.2 billion in insurance by OPIC.
Financial institutions are prohibited from lending any money to the Government of India. Currently, this is estimated to be approximately $1.9 billion.
Suspension of all direct aid to India in the sum of approximately $142.3 million a year, excluding $91 million for humanitarian and food aid. The balance of the $51.3 million is for a variety of development aid which will be suspended.
Weapon sales to India, including technology that can be used to design and construct weapons, are prohibited. This is anticipated to be small since most of India's weapons come from Russia. However, the prohibition on weapons sales is unclear and may also include computer technology with broad application.
Projects that are seeking World Bank financing may be affected if the U.S. can obtain the support of other member-shareholders. The World Bank is set to vote on two loans this month including $500 million for three energy projects and $275 million for road improvements. The World Bank loan package for 1997 was $1.5 billion and in 1998 is estimated by press reports to be $3 billion.
Prohibits exports of "specific goods and technology" subject to export licensing. It is unclear which particular products will be subject to the sanctions until the Commerce Department takes action under the President's order.
Imports from India are not directly affected unless the producer is unable to obtain parts as a result of the sanctions.
We are monitoring the situation and suggest that those firms that are potentially affected to take a wait-and-see approach over the next 48 hours given that it is too premature to take any action at this time. Given that the law has never been applied before, there is much uncertainty as to the impact of the sanctions and exposure for U.S. firms.

http://library.findlaw.com/1998/May/13/127144.html#Scene_1

bull could u please tell us all what sanctions were put on india regarding any thing including military hardware.from Russia.
stop comparing your self to pakistan when its convenient.but at the same time enjoy all the benefits.

Thats the whole point buddy,India hasnt decided so if India decided be rest assuredwe would have given it a proper thought.
Well with the Economy doing good, we will only have more money to spend.
I think blain2 answered it pretty good.

 

[Bull]

bull could u please tell us all what sanctions were put on india regarding any thing including military hardware.from Russia.
stop comparing your self to pakistan when its convenient.but at the same time enjoy all the benefits.

We were speaking abt development of LCA, and not arms procurement.Do a google search and you will find enough news/articles about it.

 

[Bull]

Yes how about MI-17s? And there are more on order as I write this. Things are not as India-centric as you would like to believe.

Mi -17 ???? Do you have any link for that.

 

[Goodperson]

Mi -17 ???? Do you have any link for that.

Yes blain is right, Mi17's were sold to Pakistan when when Indian government did not have objections when Russian's querried Indian govt.

Below link gives info about Mi-17's for Pakistan.
http://www.dawn.com/2002/09/14/top5.htm

This was no change of heart for Russia next year Russia had ruled out Arms sales to Pakistan

Ivanov rules out Russia's arms sale to Pakistan (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2003_June_16/ai_103396484)

 

[Quwa]

We'll have to wait and see how the Indian PM's visit to Russia goes. Thus far it seems Russia is not only willing to sell RD-93 to Pakistan, but also improve the engine.

 

[Cheetah786]

We were speaking abt development of LCA, and not arms procurement.Do a google search and you will find enough news/articles about it.

Well, right now everything looks very rosy, but prior to that we were also under embargo which scuttled the development plans of LCA. And yeah we with LCA we were trying to make aplane of our own,if it was to getting everything from outside then we are doing the same with the MKI.

 

[blain2]

I would be very concerned for Pakistan because that is how we should be. I would hope that China and Pakistan evolve such a strategy where upon if Russians get swayed by MMS then China can pull the plug on somethings with the Russians hurting them more or equally.

Pakistan would not be hurting indefinetly if the Russian objections persist, however the time to integrate the under-dev. Chinese engine may prolong things out even further. But then PAF has seen worse days than these so they will soldier on. I hope that it does not come to that. This example is all the more reason for Pakistan to work up projects of increasing complexity with the Chinese so we are not impacted by these weird geo-political considerations.

 

[Cheetah786]

I would be very concerned for Pakistan because that is how we should be. I would hope that China and Pakistan evolve such a strategy where upon if Russians get swayed by MMS then China can pull the plug on somethings with the Russians hurting them more or equally.

Pakistan would not be hurting indefinetly if the Russian objections persist, however the time to integrate the under-dev. Chinese engine may prolong things out even further. But then PAF has seen worse days than these so they will soldier on. I hope that it does not come to that. This example is all the more reason for Pakistan to work up projects of increasing complexity with the Chinese so we are not impacted by these weird geo-political considerations.

if you think about it it was the American sanctions that put pakistan on this track to begin with.we have come so far in this matter a bit more wait will make us more self dependence and in the long run That will be where we should be.
one question to u blain2 if chinese can reverse enginered engines.why cant we start some thing like that.i mean i no we cant do it from the start but at least we will learn some thing every day or iam totally out to lunch here .

Shenyang-based AVIC1 Aviation Engine Institute has been developing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, which is also known as ‘Taihang’ in its commercial name. Reportedly based on some AL-31F technologies, the engine is rated at 73.5kN dry and 110kN with afterburning.

The WS-10A development was completed in December 2005 and the engines may be ready for batch production soon. It was reported that the later variants of the J-10 and J-11 fighters will be powered by the WS-10A.

 

[Neo]

Has Russia offered to you anything after they sold us the MKI or Mig 21 in the 70s.

French doesnt mix foreign policy with arms sale,they sell anything to anybody.

Yes, they approved sale of Mi-8 and Mi-17 thru Ukraine and participated in the original FC-1 programme.

 

[blain2]

if you think about it it was the American sanctions that put pakistan on this track to begin with.we have come so far in this matter a bit more wait will make us more self dependence and in the long run That will be where we should be.
one question to u blain2 if chinese can reverse enginered engines.why cant we start some thing like that.i mean i no we cant do it from the start but at least we will learn some thing every day or iam totally out to lunch here

Chinese have been at it for the last 30 years or so...we are just getting into the serious business of aircraft assembly which eventually leads to development (if sufficient funding and resources can be allocated).

Learning about an engine is one thing, building it is another. The biggest challenge for most countries is the ability to build high quality components (for example blades for the fan are a key one..you need to have substancial research and know-how on manufacturing these (titanium and composite carbon fiber etc.) ...thus far only a few countries (US, UK, France and then Russia) have been able to master this manufacturing technique. The other issue is having the raw materials for this type of manufacturing.

In engine building, I think even Russians are nowhere close to the US, UK and France. China lags behind Russians...so I guess you can see how much research and time has been invested by each of these countries through the process of re-engineering, development to get to their current products. Its akin to having "The Bomb" to be very honest.

 

[TomCat111]

Learning about an engine is one thing, building it is another. The biggest challenge for most countries is the ability to build high quality components (for example blades for the fan are a key one..you need to have substancial research and know-how on manufacturing these (titanium and composite carbon fiber etc.) ...thus far only a few countries (US, UK, France and then Russia) have been able to master this manufacturing technique.

Very true. That is why I cringe every time I hear about the possibility of Chinese engine. It will come with the heavy baggage of lot of downtime and even more maintenance time.....

 

[vnomad]

In engine building, I think even Russians are nowhere close to the US, UK and France.

Compared to the US yes, but not compared to UK and France. Neither have come up with something rivalling the MiG-25 or MiG-31 to date. No french or british aircraft has thrust vectoring. The Russians are still ahead of UK and France IMHO.

 

[blain2]

Compared to the US yes, but not compared to UK and France. Neither have come up with something rivalling the MiG-25 or MiG-31 to date. No french or british aircraft has thrust vectoring. The Russians are still ahead of UK and France IMHO.

Do you think the Brits only make combat aircraft engines? Do you forget Rolls Royce engines??? Right up there with GE & PW when it comes to the world's best and most powerful engines....SNECMA is another top-notch company...one big difference between the US, UK and French engines is their insane MTBO and MTBF numbers for the engines they produce (as an example, F-16's GE and PW engines require an engine overhaul after 4000 hours wheras the AL-31's require an overhaul every 1000 hours)..the Russians come nowhere close to it...its not simply about thrust, engine quality (which comes by way of manufacturing quality components is a whole another ballgame). The engines on Mig-25/31 are something along the lines of which UK and France have never had to build anything because they never had the requirement.

Do not forget that EJ200s (the engines powering typhoon) are produced by Eurojet which has as its members, RR and a few other european countries as partners.

 

[Awesome]

Do you think the Brits only make combat aircraft engines? Do you forget Rolls Royce engines???

I so had the exact thing in my mind upon instantly reading that...

On another note, I won't diss the Chinese version till I see it fail. It's politically the best option. Risk free. So worth the risk.

I mean if its good its good. We'd use it. It is after all a copy and not something made from scratch from the drawing board.