No aircraft engines to Pak, please

[Cheetah786]

Well you can check my other posts i am no fan off DRDO, LCA is a good plane if it flies now.But as of now there is nothing but delayed news thats coming out from here.Off lte they were calling for help on the Kaveri engine.
So the problems are same across the borders.

Whe is the last time Pak did something on its own.It depends on US for money/aid

According to all the indians they have money and iam happy for them.according to al the indians they have friends all over the world .
according to most indians russia and west is there best friend and they have access to lot of technology.

so my question is with all the options u guys have which pakistan dosent so u cant say both sides of the border.u still cant fly that bird even in the absences of any objections.and even after all the help u still cant do it right when would be the time when indians can do any thing own there own without help.

Another question as previously mentioned india buys 30 some percent of russian wepons.iam asking would india be able to carry on like that after they start to buy from uncle sam (which iam extremely happy about.welcome to the world of sanctions)

 

[vnomad]

Well you can check my other posts i am no fan off DRDO, LCA is a good plane if it flies now.But as of now there is nothing but delayed news thats coming out from here.Off lte they were calling for help on the Kaveri engine.

Yes the radar is also a problem. All modes of the LCA's pulse doppler haven't matured as yet.
Solution of the problems - the engine is going to be a American GE-404(also used in the Gripen) and the radar on the IOC is an Israeli Elta E/M-2052 AESA. So, neither problem is very serious.
The JF-17 also uses a foreign radar and engine. I believe the RD-93 was considered for the Tejas. The GE-404 was probably found to be better.

u still cant fly that bird even in the absences of any objections.and even after all the help u still cant do it right when would be the time when indians can do any thing own there own without help.

The bird has had 500+ successful flights. First deliveries will be in 2007 same as the JF-17. What are you gloating about?

 

[Cheetah786]

Yes the radar is also a problem. All modes of the LCA's pulse doppler haven't matured as yet.
Solution of the problems - the engine is going to be a American GE-404(also used in the Gripen) and the radar on the IOC is an Israeli Elta E/M-2052 AESA. So, neither problem is very serious.
The JF-17 also uses a foreign radar and engine. I believe the RD-93 was considered for the Tejas. The GE-404 was probably found to be better.

The bird has had 500+ successful flights. First deliveries will be in 2007 same as the JF-17. What are you gloating about?

The sad tale of the LCA
Admiral J G Nadkarni (retd)
The sad tale of the LCA
Last month, Indian defence authorities quietly announced that India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft, originally to have become operational in 1995, will not achieve that status before 2015. The euphoria over the first flight of the prototype a few days later, however, helped to push that stark news off the front pages.

The LCA programme was initiated in 1983 by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, with three widely publicised assertions. One, that it would be an indigenous project catapulting India into the rarefied ranks of global aviation powers. Two, the aircraft would enter frontline squadron service by 1995. And three, the project would only cost Rs 700 crores (Rs 7 billion).

What actually happened between 1983 and 2000? First, let us take the promise of indigenous development. In 1986 an agreement was quietly signed with the United States that permitted DRDO to work with four US Air force laboratories. The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France. As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.(Whe is the last time Pak did something on its own.It depends on US for money/aid

As for operational induction, anyone who knew anything about fighter aircraft development or the capabilities of the DRDO would have known that the envisaged 12-year time frame (1983-1995) was /pure make-believe.

Yet, as late as 1990, DRDO asserted that the 1995 target would be met. It was only when 1995 drew closer that the talk shifted from operational induction to test flights. In 1998, the defence minister stated that the first test flight would take place in 1999. The first flight finally took place a few days ago, 17 years after the project started.

As for the project cost, the original budget was Rs 700 crores. It was later revised to Rs 3,000 crores (Rs 30 billion). It would easily go past Rs 10,000 crores (Rs 100 billion) before the aircraft is inducted into operational service. And that is with DRDO incurring only about a quarter of the overall development costs. Not included are the cost of the huge amounts of foreign equipment being fitted; engine, radar, electronic warfare and communication equipment, high-stress body panels, cockpit displays and the entire range of armament.

Initially it was stated that the per copy price of an LCA would be Rs 10 crores (Rs 100 million). It would be a miracle if the LCA can ever be produced at less than Rs 150 crores (Rs 1.5 billion) a copy. And if the LCA is eventually inducted in 2015, what will the Indian Air Force get? It will get an aircraft at best comparable to first generation F-16s.

One of the DRDO's favourite phrases is 'state of the art,' and according to them everything of the LCA is state of the art. In the fighter aircraft field, to be state of the art, at least from 1990, an aircraft must be designed for 'stealth', that is having virtually no radar or thermal signature. Not even DRDO has so far claimed that the LCA is a stealth aircraft, or that it is capable of being made into one. Forget stealth, the LCA is incapable of any significant upgrading at all during its lifetime. It is a very small, single-engined aircraft tightly packed with equipment. It cannot be fitted with a bigger engine or expanded avionics.

What prompted the DRDO to conceive the LCA when Israel, technologically far more advanced than India, had abandoned its Lavi fighter project after spending more than $ 2 billion on it? Aircraft development costs had mounted so much by then that far richer-countries compared to India such as Britain, France and Germany had realised that unless they formed multinational consortia it would not be possible for them to develop sophisticated, modern aircraft. That is why beginning the late 1970s we have had Eurofighters and Eurocopters, where three or four countries share costs and buying commitments.

It can be said with certainty that the LCA will never become a frontline fighter with the Indian Air Force. The Mirage 2000s and the Mig-29s that the air force has been flying from the 1980s have superior capabilities to any LCA that might be inducted in 2015, 2020 or 2025. So the most prudent thing for the government would be to immediately terminate the LCA project. National and individual egos have been satisfied after the first flight.

The Rs 3,000 crores or so that have spent so far could be put down as the price of a valuable learning experience. We would have undoubtedly gained valuable knowledge in many areas of aircraft design and engineering. But of much greater value, we would have gained the understanding that defence R&D is not a make-believe game to be played by exploiting the fascination for techno-nationalism.

The LCA ranks alongside DRDO's other monumental failures such as the Arjun tank, the Trishul and the Akash missiles, and the Kaveri engine. The time and cost overruns on these projects have been enormous. The story of the Arjun is well known.

With the induction of the T-90, there is no way the Arjun is going to spearhead India's armoured divisions. In fact there are many who believe that the T-72 inducted two decades ago is a better tank than the Arjun. The reality of Arjun seems to be finally sinking in, and it would appear that it might end up not as a battle tank, but as a platform for a 155mm howitzer.

The short-range, surface-to-air-missile Trishul was to be fitted on three Indian Navy frigates in 1992. A decade later, the missile is still carrying out "successful" tests, long after the frigates have been completed. The same story goes for the medium-range, surface-to-air missile Akash and the anti-tank missile Nag.

During the last 20 years, DRDO has fine-tuned the art of selling projects. To start with, don't be timid and aim low. In true Parkinsonian style, the more ambitious the project, greater the chance of it being sanctioned. When the presentation is made to the minister, be generous with phrases such as "state-of-the art". Also mention that we will be the third country in the world to produce the equipment. (It is always the "third" as even the minister knows that the USA and Russia already produce the same).

If a service chief demurs, make snide remarks about how the services want to import everything. And keep the estimated cost of the project absurdly low. Once the project is sanctioned, feed the media with a steady stream of unverifiable tidbits. Bring out a mock-up model and show it round at the Republic Day parade and defence exhibitions.

In recent times DRDO and India's defence services have evolved a modus vivendi. No longer does DRDO oppose imports, provided they are allowed to continue with their projects. Thus, import Su-30s and develop the LCA. Import T-90 tanks and produce Arjun. Import Israeli UAV and continue with a similar indigenous project. The only victim in this you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours game is the Indian taxpayer, who unfortunately does not seem to care.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm

 

[Janbaz]

An Indian said it, not I! Sad for DRDO and others who comment negatively about the JF-17 Thunder! Learn and Grow up Y'all!

 

[Janbaz]

Its not to show that you failed,but to make sure PAF modernisation doesnt happen.

Well could be a combination of both! Embarresment happens so.....

 

[vnomad]

FOR YOUR EYES ONLY AKA=MY GLOAT.

I ...ahem... have a big amused grin on my face right now. The gentlemen whose composed the article(not report) is welcome to his opinion. But, his opinion is not the last word on the topic. You've quoted one article ripping the DRDO, I've read dozens and I'm not ruffled. Lets go into the details shall we -

Last month, Indian defence authorities quietly announced that India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft, originally to have become operational in 1995, will not achieve that status before 2015.

Links, reports, anything? Just how quietly did they announce it? I'm sure the DRDO bashers would have publicised such an announcement.

The to-be-indigenously-developed engine for the LCA -- Kaveri -- was forgotten and the US made General Electric F-404 engine was substituted. Radar was sourced from Erricson Ferranti, carbon-fibre composite panels for wings from Alenia and fly-by-wire controls from Lockheed Martin. Design help was sought from British Aerospace, Avion Marcel Dassault and Deutsche Aerospace. Wind tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France.

The Gripen uses an American radar, and most Chinese a/c use russian radars. The JF-17 will have an Italian one. Composite panels is fine print. Initially wind-tunnel testing was done in the US, Russia and France, India today has its own wind tunnels(thanks to the Tejas program). The LCA design isn't very revolutionary and a first timer DRDO asking for external design help isn't a big deal.

As for armaments -- missiles, guns, rockets and bombs -- every last item was to be imported.

What an ***. The armaments just have to be compatible with the aircraft not exclusively designed for it. And the indigenous Astra has been successfully tested.

Forget stealth, the LCA is incapable of any significant upgrading at all during its lifetime. It is a very small, single-engined aircraft tightly packed with equipment. It cannot be fitted with a bigger engine or expanded avionics.

Its very small so it has a low RCS. The DRDO doesn't intend to keep upgrading the LCA for the next thirty years. And the avionics and engine can both be upgraded. Better doesn't have to be larger.

The LCA ranks alongside DRDO's other monumental failures such as the Arjun tank, the Trishul and the Akash missiles, and the Kaveri engine. The time and cost overruns on these projects have been enormous. The story of the Arjun is well known.

The cost overruns when compared to those in the west are miniscule. The author doesn't really know the latest on the Arjun. When is this article dated anyway?

An Indian said it, not I! Sad for DRDO and others who comment negatively about the JF-17 Thunder! Learn and Grow up Y'all!

Since when has the DRDO started commenting on the JF-17? There are over a billion Indians in the world. There cannot be a consensus on every issue.

 

[TomCat111]

JF-17 deal in doldrums?

Columnist Gp Capt (Retd) SULTAN M. HALI discusses ramifications of Moscow’s reported refusal to China for JF-17s re-export to Pakistan.

Reports emanating from Russia have put a damper on Pakistan’s exuberance in its success story of JF-17 Thunder.

Kommersant, the Russian daily, on 31 October reported, “The Sino-Pak fighter deal is under threat due to Moscow's refusal to allow China the deliveries of war birds to Pakistan with Russian engines even as Beijing is mounting pressure to include Islamabad in the military customers list. China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines to Pakistan. China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder.

A Chinese delegation is arriving here (Moscow) for negotiations which will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technical trade, the report said adding otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract for delivery of FC-1fighter jets to Pakistan. The FC-1, also known as the Super-7, the first Chinese multirole fighter, is designed for the international market.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50 percent of the cost—USD 75 million—was borne by Pakistan.”

China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003. However, under the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to fit only Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines.

"Unfortunately for Beijing, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country," the report said. Also, "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade meaning thereby that re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," state-run arms trader Rosoboronexport was quoted as saying by the daily.

"The Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) confirmed that it did not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad," Kommersant added.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in getting a concession from Russia on the issue of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan, it said. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten its multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maxim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the China is to get RD-93 engines that it can reverse engineer in the future, like they do with everything in China."

The Nation’s editorial of 3 November 2006 titled ‘JF-17 Deal in doldrums’ spelt trouble for the JF-17 Thunder joint venture between Pakistan and China, which according to General Pervez Musharraf’s Independence Day-2006 speech, is likely to participate in the Pakistan Day Parade Fly Past on 23 March 2007. Earlier, when President Musharraf visited the JF-17 assembly line in China, he praised the project as a “leap forward” in Sino-Pak military cooperation.

The Nation’s editorial reads: “With Islamabad expecting to start taking delivery of 150 JF-17 Thunder fighters in 2007, the deal suddenly seems to have come under strain with China finding it difficult to convince Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which it has a military-technological trade partnership. The complication has been caused by the contract signed between Beijing and Moscow which does not give the former the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country. A Chinese delegation is now scheduled to visit Moscow to get Pakistan included among Russia’s military customers. But if Beijing fails to win the concession it will offer Islamabad either another plane or return its money for the production of a multi-role fighter jet. This would be a huge blow for Pakistan, because it relies on the JF-17 induction not just for immediate upgradation of the PAF, but it has invested much time and energy in joining the development process so as to use the experience as a platform for future technology upgrades.

Russia is aware that refusal to include Pakistan in the list of its military trade partners will complicate trade relations with China, which brings in $2 billion annually. But Moscow is also concerned about the reaction from New Delhi, which buys military technology worth $1.5 billion a year. Before China signed an agreement to deliver 150 JF-17 Thunders to Pakistan, New Delhi had obtained guarantees from Moscow that it would not let Beijing re-export planes with Russian engines to Islamabad.

China might still bring its weight to bear on Russia regarding its future contracts but it is too early to say whether it would be able to get any concession for Pakistan in the teeth of the Indian opposition or whether it would offer substitute planes. It however remains difficult to understand why Islamabad did not clear this point up before committing so much effort and resources to the project.”

The news brought glee to the Indian camp and gloom to the Pakistanis. C Raja Mohan, in his article, ‘China pressing Russia on Pak fighter project’ carried by the Indian Express of 13 November 2006, reported: “As President Hu Jintao prepares to visit Islamabad later this month, Beijing has stepped up political pressure on Moscow to let it equip Pakistani fighter aircraft JF-17 Thunder Jets with Russian engines.

Russia has already agreed to supply Klimov RD-93 engines to the JF-17s being produced in China. Serial production of the JF-17 reportedly began earlier this year. Pakistan plans to buy 150-200 JF-17s in the coming years. Russian policy prohibits the re-export of Russian-origin equipment to third countries. For now, Pakistan is not on the list of countries that Russia exports arms to. Without Russian engines, Pakistan’s JF-17s will not fly.

Moscow’s decision to release the engines would underline three big political setbacks for India. Under pressure from New Delhi, which has bought billions of dollars worth of Russian arms over the last four decades, Moscow has held back from selling arms to Pakistan. While India was willing to swallow the resumed military relationship between Russia and China in the last decade, it will find it hard to accept Russian arms supplies to Pakistan.

The JF-17’s take-off in Pakistan, with Russian assistance, would showcase the Indian failure to get the much talked about Light Combat Aircraft off the ground. The LCA, christened Tejas, was launched before China and Pakistan unveiled their plans for JF-17.

Worse still, Russian cooperation will allow China and Pakistan to leverage the JF-17 as a means to expand political influence with the security establishments in Asia, Africa and Latin America. China and Pakistan consciously designed the JF 17 for export.

Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Nigeria, and Zimbabwe are among the countries that have shown interest in buying the JF-17. At the Karachi Military Exhibition later this month, China and Pakistan are expected to make formal presentations on the JF-17.

Russia is aware the sale of engines to Pak JF-17s is bound to anger India. At the same time Moscow knows refusal to sell the engines to Pakistan will upset China. Beijing is now Moscow’s strategic partner, and trade and defence cooperation between the two countries has rapidly grown in recent years.

Reports from Moscow suggest China has been pressing Russia for an early decision on the sale of RD-93 engines. Though Russian officials insist no decision has been made on military cooperation with Pakistan, they have not denied China’s request on RD-93 re-export is under active consideration.

China’s own political prestige is at stake in ensuring the Russian sale of engines to JF-17, which has emerged as a symbol of the ‘all weather friendship’ between Beijing and Islamabad.”

Jointly developed by the China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, the JF-17 was conceived as a light fighter, with advanced technologies, the cost of developing it split between the two countries.

American aerospace companies were expected to join in the project. But military sanctions against China following the Tiananmen incidents in 1989, forced Beijing and Islamabad to turn elsewhere. Russian design bureaus participated in the development of the JF-17 airframe.

Jane’s Defence Weekly took the wind out of the sails of Pakistan’s detractors through its story: ‘Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines’. The story by Robert Karniol, Zuhai Air Show, China, with additional reporting by Ben Vogel, Janes.com Editor and Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent, Islamabad, categorically states: “Directly contradicting an earlier Russian position, a senior Chinese aerospace official publicly confirmed at the beginning of November that the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 under development will be powered by the Russian engine. The new position was supported by Russian officials.

‘Right now we are using the RD-93 [in prototypes] and it's Klimov who will do the series production [of the engine]. The engine will be exported to Pakistan,’ said Li Pei, development director at China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, which is leading the programme and which also involves the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

Russian diplomatic and industry officials had previously stated without qualification that the RD-93 powering the FC-1, China's version of the jointly developed aircraft, will not be provided to Islamabad either directly or through re-export. Klimov had reiterated this position only a day before Li's statement. Moscow is thought to have hesitated over any deal involving provision of its military products to Pakistan over concerns centered on its long-standing defence relationship with rival India. Klimov, in particular, is involved in a Russian bid to supply New Delhi with 126 MiG-29 fighters for India's future multirole combat aircraft competition. Li reversed this view of the JF-17 programme when questioned by Jane's at a press briefing organized by Klimov during the China Air Show in October. He was flanked on the podium by senior officials from both Klimov and the Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport. ‘If we don't sell [ Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will. It's just a reality,’ said Klimov Director General Alexander Vatagin in a follow-up comment. Oleg Novikov, a senior official with Rosoborenexport, re-enforced the change in position over export of the engine. ‘The process to [arrange the provision to Pakistan of the RD-93] is ongoing,’ he explained. ‘The export license will be granted provided it doesn't contravene the export laws of Russia or China.’ The Pakistan Air Force earlier in 2006 told Jane's that it had received firm assurances from China that the RD-93 issue will not prove a problem despite repeated Russian statements to the contrary.

Following the confirmation, Pakistan plans to actively market the JF-17 to potential buyers from Africa, Asia and the Middle East, at the IDEAS 2006 exhibition due to take place in Karachi from 21-24 November. The JF-17 is intended to replace several F-7 variants currently flown by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) as second-line fighters. The first formal test flight in Pakistan is due to take place on 23 March 2007, with the PAF expected to order at least 150 platforms for inductions to begin from late 2008 or early 2009. The aircraft underwent a major redesign at the end of 2005 and sources told Jane's that the revised design has a maximum speed of Mach1.8. A Pakistani official said that improvements to the JF-17 are likely to make it ‘a much more appealing aircraft for customers in the region surrounding Pakistan and one which many would consider comparable to aircraft they would purchase from the Western world’. An Arab diplomat in Islamabad supported this view saying the aircraft could complement the more advanced fighters available from Europe and the US. ‘The big incentive to buy this aircraft would be that it doesn't come accompanied by political complications, objections from different lobbies opposed to a deal with an Arab Muslim country,’ the diplomat said. Islamabad is also promoting its geographical proximity to the Middle East, which would allow for shorter turn-around times for maintenance and repair work.”

Pakistan Air Force meanwhile is not perturbed by the possible Russian embargo. It believes that China will keep its side of the bargain to ensure the availability of a suitable engine for the joint venture. The Chief Project Director for the project, Air Vice Marshal Farhat Hussain, when contacted by this scribe commented: “The JF-17 Thunder is very much on track!”

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Group Captain S M Hali has served in Pakistan Air Force for thirty years and has flown over 4500 hours and worked on various command and staff appointments, which include the command of a squadron, duties as Air and Naval Attaché and Director Public Relations for PAF. He is a Graduate of PAF Staff College, Joint Services Staff College, has Honors degree in Business Administration and Masters in Mass Communication and is currently pursuing an M Phil degree leading to PhD in Mass Communication. He is a member of the prestigious International Public Relations Association (IPRA) of UK. He was a member of the pioneering team that established Indus Vision TV Channel and has set up numerous FM Radio Channels and produced over three thousand hours of programming content. He provides services as a Visiting Faculty for Mass Communication in a number of Universities. He has produced numerous drama serials and documentaries for TV and Radio and hosted a number of Talk shows. He has authored over five hundred articles for various national and international dailies and magazines. He writes a regular weekly column in daily Nawa-i-Waqt and The Nation and contributes to Defence Journal as a defence and political analyst. He is currently working as Managing Editor of a news agency, Independent News-Pakistan (INP), which is a multi-dimensional establishment in Pakistan providing news service in English, Urdu, Sindhi and Arabic languages as well as quality news pictures and video clips to hundreds of subscribers in Pakistan and abroad. For his meritorious services, the Government of Pakistan has conferred on him Sitara-e-Imtiaz (Military).

 

[EagleEyes]

Talking about Russia not offering engines to Pakistan. Well, lets see, Russia offers to modernize the engine and increase the thurst rate by almost 10 percent!

Russian plant to modernise engine for Chinese fighter planes

13.11.2006, 22.29

ST. PETERSBURG, November 13 (Itar-Tass) -- Russia’s St. Petersburg aircraft engine plant will modernise the RD-93 turbojet engine for the light Chinese FC-1 fighter plane Super-7.

This will increase the plane’s thrust by almost 10 percent. A thrust vectoring nozzle will add manoeuvrability to the plane.

A relevant contract is expected to be signed in November or December 2006, plant director general Alexander Vatagin told a press conference on Monday.

The plant is currently fulfilling orders under a contract signed in 2005 by Russia’s arms exporter Rosoboronexport and China for the supply of 100 RD-93 engines for the FC-1 Super 7 fighter planes, as well space parts for them for total sum of 267 million U.S. dollars.

The plant has already supplied six engines and plans to supply nine more before the end of the year. The rest will be supplied by another plant.

Over the almost 50-year-lond history of cooperation with China, the plant has supplied different types of engines for MiG-15 planes and Mi-8, Mi-17, and Mka-28 helicopters. More than 500 engines are currently in operation on these and other aircraft, including 30 new-generation BK-2500 helicopter engines, designed and created by the plant’s specialists, to a tune of 20 million U.S. dollars.

http://itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=10978398&PageNum=0

 

[Keysersoze]

You know the whole thing could be a ploy in order to help Russia stay ahead in the MRCA deal. If India opts for another buyer then Russia will probably sell the engines to PAk (through China) And they may just wait till after and sell them anyway (regardless of the outcome)

 

[Owais]

This will increase the plane’s thrust by almost 10 percent. A thrust vectoring nozzle will add manoeuvrability to the plane.

RD-93 is going to have TVC?? is there a need of TVC in light weight fighter like JF-17??
Any other(pakistani) source regarding that news??

 

[EagleEyes]

RD-93 is going to have TVC?? is there a need of TVC in light weight fighter like JF-17??
Any other(pakistani) source regarding that news??

There is really no need for TVC for any plane as long as i think if they have Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS), where JF-17 have UOMZ SH-3UMI HMS. The HMS with an IR guided missile (SD-10) will give JF-17 fighter ability to fire missile at the enemy aircraft during a dog fight without a lock. The pilot will just have to look at the plane, and bang... gone!

 

[Bull]

so my question is with all the options u guys have which pakistan dosent so u cant say both sides of the border.u still cant fly that bird even in the absences of any objections.and even after all the help u still cant do it right when would be the time when indians can do any thing own there own without help.)

Well, right now everything looks very rosy, but prior to that we were also under embargo which scuttled the development plans of LCA. And yeah we with LCA we were trying to make aplane of our own,if it was to getting everything from outside then we are doing the same with the MKI.

Another question as previously mentioned india buys 30 some percent of russian wepons.iam asking would india be able to carry on like that after they start to buy from uncle sam (which iam extremely happy about.welcome to the world of sanctions)

Thats the whole point buddy,India hasnt decided so if India decided be rest assuredwe would have given it a proper thought.

Well with the Economy doing good, we will only have more money to spend.

 

[blain2]

There is really no need for TVC for any plane as long as i think if they have Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS), where JF-17 have UOMZ SH-3UMI HMS. The HMS with an IR guided missile (SD-10) will give JF-17 fighter ability to fire missile at the enemy aircraft during a dog fight without a lock. The pilot will just have to look at the plane, and bang... gone!

WebMaster,

You would need something shorter range than SD-10 (like A/T-Darter, IRIS-T etc.) to be able to mate it to a Helmet mounted cueing system. SD-10 is guided by the radar and not the cueing system simply becuase its a long range, BVR missile.

 

[blain2]

Well with the Economy doing good, we will only have more money to spend.

Money is a finite attribute. Regardless of having a lot, you simply cannot continue to buy major weapons like aircraft from both sides all the time....also weapons aquisitions like combat aircraft happen in cycles. The example of France offering new submarines to Pakistan right after it sells Scorpenes to India is a stark example of how producers milk the market...the French knew that the Indians were done spending for now...so lets go over to the Pakistanis...you know the rest.

So money can do only so much, at one point Russians will relent and then eventually sell hardware to Pakistan as well and won't remain tied down to Indian sales.

 

[Bull]

Money is a finite attribute. Regardless of having a lot, you simply cannot continue to buy major weapons like aircraft from both sides all the time....also weapons aquisitions like combat aircraft happen in cycles. The example of France offering new submarines to Pakistan right after it sells Scorpenes to India is a stark example of how producers milk the market...the French knew that the Indians were done spending for now...so lets go over to the Pakistanis...you know the rest..

Has Russia offered to you anything after they sold us the MKI or Mig 21 in the 70s.

French doesnt mix foreign policy with arms sale,they sell anything to anybody.