Next-Gen Chinese AAM for JF-17 Block III

[Zhukov]

FC-31 4th or 5th gen

How many times will i have to tell everyone that chinese naming of Fighter jet generations is different compared to Western.
What Chinese call 3rd Generation is equivalent to western 4th Generation i.e F16 F15 F14 Mig29 Su27 J10 JF17 TEJAS Jas39 Tornado ETC
While Chinese 4th generation nomenclature is for what western call 5th generation i.e F22 F35 T50 X2 J31 J20 TFX KFX etc

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The PAF reminds me of a person here

He will always be near broke or with very little money, but will happily spend $80 on a PfChangs dinner yet spend two hours at Marshalls deciding on $40 pants and still not get them.

That's interesting because these days it seems like the Army will look at a Lexus CT and Corolla, but then go for a Civic decked out with some of the Lexus' features (e.g. T129).

There was a time when the PAF had taken a somewhat similar approach with industry Civics, e.g. buying Mirage III/5s in small incremental batches (with later ones equipped with key features) and planning to do the same with the F-16 through the 1990s (pre-Pressler)

But after 2007 something changed - and the burden of duties fell onto the JF-17. The JF-17 itself didn't change them, that'd be wrong to say, but they did begin putting a lot of emphasis on what the JF-17 can do and didn't talk much about what it can't do (e.g. deep-strike).

Plus they have an unrealized opportunity to extend the F-16's value as an offensive asset. While it is true the PAF can't arm the F-16s with SOW and ALCM, another asset for deep-strike could open the F-16s up for providing effective top-cover (still have AMRAAM, AIDEWS, Link-16) to the striking asset. With the JF-17 in place, this ~100 fighter force would be perceived as a bigger offensive threat than it would have been without the JF-17. In effect, you have cross-validation.

 

[Bratva]

I certainly doubt it, the Sd-10b maybe but as such the PAF will not induct a longer range bvraam to increase its logistics and training headaches.

The pl-10 might come but the PAF was looking at another direction

As the rumors at chinese forums suggest, they are going to discontinue PL-12 and PL-8 production once PL-15 and PL-10 attains maturity and China is Putting both -10 & -15 on its AESA equipped jets. J-20 has been shown with -10 & 15. J-10 C and J-16 with AESA radar

There is a slit I can observe on PL-15 which indicates an AESA seeker on it. If China is going to equip standardize these two missiles on the AESA equipped fleet, Is PAF going to follow other direction ? Because as far i've seen the trend Block-1 and Block-2 JF-17 been using SD-10 same as J-10 A or J-10 B.

And Why Pakistan wants to spend money on making SD-10 B when everything comes inside PL-15 ? Because the next evolution of SD-10 A is to make it equip with AESA seeker

 

[Basel]

As the rumors at chinese forums suggest, they are going to discontinue PL-12 and PL-8 production once PL-15 and PL-10 attains maturity and China is Putting both -10 & -15 on its AESA equipped jets. J-20 has been shown with -10 & 15. J-10 C and J-16 with AESA radar

There is a slit I can observe on PL-15 which indicates an AESA seeker on it. If China is going to equip standardize these two missiles on the AESA equipped fleet, Is PAF going to follow other direction ? Because as far i've seen the trend Block-1 and Block-2 JF-17 been using SD-10 same as J-10 A or J-10 B.

And Why Pakistan wants to spend money on making SD-10 B when everything comes inside PL-15 ? Because the next evolution of SD-10 A is to make it equip with AESA seeker

What about PL-21D the future BVR of PLAAF??

 

[Bratva]

What about PL-21D the future BVR of PLAAF??

Still in conceptual stage because RAMJET tech is still in developmental stage. Once it is mastered, then We will see the likes of PL-21 missiles

China’s new ramjet engine to enhance firing range of missiles, combat ability of J20
By Deng Xiaoci Source:Global Times Published: 2017/6/5 20:48:39

China has successfully tested its solid-fuel variable flow ramjet engine in two recent airspace experiments, a breakthrough in the engine research fields which could enhance real combat ability of China's stealth aircraft including the J20 jet fighters, according to military experts.

A research team from No. 4 research institute affiliated with the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation revealed on May 31 that the team has successfully conducted two flight tests with the solid-fuel variable flow ramjet engine. The team said the new ramjet engine is ready for further engineering application, paving the way for China's next generations of hypersonic missiles, the Science and Technology Daily reported on Thursday.

According to the report, the solid-fuel ramjet engine is a member of the ramjet engine family, which has the advantage of low cost, high power, and high controllability with compact size. And it is hardly accessible in the world as it demands sophisticated and highly difficult research on technology.

The new engine, can remarkably increase the firing range and mobility for air-to-air missiles and antiship missiles equipped with China's stealth aircraft including the J20 jet fighters, Song Zhongping, a military expert who used to serve in the PLA Rocket Force, told the Global Times.

The engine will enable the J20 fighters to fire from greater range and the missiles to fly faster at a hypersonic speed, which will increase their combat ability, Song said.

The research institute has established a special research team to work on the project since 2000, and in recent years, the research institute has conducted eight flight tests with the new ramjet engines.

It is a milestone in the field of engine research, which has been a bottleneck for China for quite a while, Li Jie, a Beijing-based military expert, told the Global Times on Monday.

Once the engine achieves miniaturization, it will very likely enable China's air-to-air missiles to strike targets up to 300 kilometers at a speed faster than Mach 5, Song estimated, adding that the engine can be applied to China's latest missiles including PL12 missiles.

A lot of research needs to be done in the future to achieve that. For example, China should also conduct research on building up a super range detection network to support such a long-range strike, and the precision guiding system should be capable of processing information at super high speeds, Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of the Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times.

At present, such an engine will be mainly used on missiles, as for the manned aircraft, there is still a long way to go, since the thrust of such engines are still not enough for that, Song said.

Cruise missiles and experimental aircraft including drones can also adopt such technology to realize high-speed travel within the atmosphere, Wang added.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1050098.shtml

 

[messiach]

AAM advanced seekers are linked to AESA. I am hopeful AWC is making progress here. Very time consuming.

The PAF reminds me of a person here

He will always be near broke or with very little money, but will happily spend $80 on a PfChangs dinner yet spend two hours at Marshalls deciding on $40 pants and still not get them.

 

[SQ8]

AAM advanced seekers are linked to AESA. I am hopeful AWC is making progress here. Very time consuming.

Depends on whether their funding permits them to focus on such systems. From what I had heard a while back; their focus was on stand off munitions to counter the now very well built up Indian ADGE. All the way upto the mid 2000s we were still fairly capable of making a dent into their airspace and wreaking havoc with their infrastructure but with the new air defense systems they have operational, our best hope lies in Stand off munitions and ARMs to try and break through which was the focus.

AESA seekers the Chinese are working on, but if my (short)experience working with the Chinese on a system has told me anything; you need to chase them to get the quality that they seem to push for their own prototype inductions. But then, it depends on working group to working group.

 

[Blue Marlin]

As the rumors at chinese forums suggest, they are going to discontinue PL-12 and PL-8 production once PL-15 and PL-10 attains maturity and China is Putting both -10 & -15 on its AESA equipped jets. J-20 has been shown with -10 & 15. J-10 C and J-16 with AESA radar

There is a slit I can observe on PL-15 which indicates an AESA seeker on it. If China is going to equip standardize these two missiles on the AESA equipped fleet, Is PAF going to follow other direction ? Because as far i've seen the trend Block-1 and Block-2 JF-17 been using SD-10 same as J-10 A or J-10 B.

And Why Pakistan wants to spend money on making SD-10 B when everything comes inside PL-15 ? Because the next evolution of SD-10 A is to make it equip with AESA seeker

how do you know the pl-15 is infact the pl-12b, or do you have seperate pics of the sd10b?
personally i would think the "pl15 is an upgraded variant of the pl12 (pl12b)
and below is the pl-15, note this is significantly bigger than the pl12.

Depends on whether their funding permits them to focus on such systems. From what I had heard a while back; their focus was on stand off munitions to counter the now very well built up Indian ADGE. All the way upto the mid 2000s we were still fairly capable of making a dent into their airspace and wreaking havoc with their infrastructure but with the new air defense systems they have operational, our best hope lies in Stand off munitions and ARMs to try and break through which was the focus.

AESA seekers the Chinese are working on, but if my (short)experience working with the Chinese on a system has told me anything; you need to chase them to get the quality that they seem to push for their own prototype inductions. But then, it depends on working group to working group.

does pakistan posses the ld-10? (an arm variant of the sd10)

 

[SQ8]

does pakistan posses the ld-10? (an arm variant of the sd10)

Beyond a couple of test pieces sent over, not that I am aware of.
The current ARM is the MAR-1 which is a pretty good system, although it is(was) currently still deployed operationally on the Mirages and not yet checked out on the Thunder for reasons I never found out.

 

[Ultima Thule]

FC-31 4th or 5th gen

in chinese term its called 4th gen and in western (Russian) term its 5th gen jet

 

[Blue Marlin]

Beyond a couple of test pieces sent over, not that I am aware of.
The current ARM is the MAR-1 which is a pretty good system, although it is(was) currently still deployed operationally on the Mirages and not yet checked out on the Thunder for reasons I never found out.

ok thanks but all this talk of another bvraam is a bit pointless when you think the sd-10 is a good missile and similar to the aim-120 (as per kaiser tufail), dont you think pakistan should/is looking for any wvraams like the a-darter, aasram and pl-10. what do you think is most likely chosen?

going back to arm dont you think a cruise missile based arm would be suited as its less risky, longer ranged and less likely of being dected?

 

[Ultima Thule]

When we are going for AEW&CS Killer???

Not sooner bro JF-17 and other PAF jets is too small to carry PL-X, unless we will get J-11 series of jets from China

 

[Blue Marlin]

Beyond a couple of test pieces sent over, not that I am aware of.
The current ARM is the MAR-1 which is a pretty good system, although it is(was) currently still deployed operationally on the Mirages and not yet checked out on the Thunder for reasons I never found out.

ok thanks but all this talk of another bvraam is a bit pointless when you think the sd-10 is a good missile and similar to the aim-120 (as per kaiser tufail), dont you think pakistan should/is looking for any wvraams like the a-darter, aasram and pl-10. what do you think is most likely chosen?

going back to arm dont you think a cruise missile based arm would be suited as its less risky, longer ranged and less likely of being detected?

 

[Ultima Thule]

how do you know the pl-15 is infact the pl-12b, or do you have seperate pics of the sd10b?
personally i would think the "pl15 is an upgraded variant of the pl12 (pl12b)
and below is the pl-15, note this is significantly bigger than the pl12.

No sir this is not PL-15 but unamed PL-X

 

[SQ8]

ok thanks but all this talk of another bvraam is a bit pointless when you think the sd-10 is a good missile and similar to the aim-120 (as per kaiser tufail), dont you think pakistan should/is looking for any wvraams like the a-darter, aasram and pl-10. what do you think is most likely chosen?

going back to arm dont you think a cruise missile based arm would be suited as its less risky, longer ranged and less likely of being dected?

The SD-10 is a good missile and where the JF-17 is concerned its a pretty potent combination due to the fairly small RCS, networked sensors and very good GCI and pilot SA over the eastern front in most aspects today.
The requirement is for a more effective WVR missile but that is secondary to the need for a helmet mounted cueing system because the missiles are readily available from other sources but the HMDS is not with the capable type the PAF wants; the good old R-73 type monocle system has been tried with the F-7PGs who have used it in exercises, but the PAF prefers a whole on solution like the JHCMS(now that they have tasted it).
However, with the systems available there have to be compatibility issues; so the Darter is available today if needed but the helmet to go with it involves Israel and the PAF has worked hard to keep any past Israeli sourcing in the dark and now with the Indo-Israeli beach romance it is not easy.
That leaves European sams for which diplomatic concerns are an issue as every Indian diplomat & military attache has specific instructions in their countries to relay even the most basic of inquiries by Pakistanis to their offices and for that matter the Indian diplomats are much much smarter and efficient as compared to the fat check hoarding dumbarses from Pakistan.

So without a cueing system available to fully utilize high off boresight missiles, there is no point in inducting any.