What's new

Next-Gen Chinese AAM for JF-17 Block III

Only true in the context of past and most current BVRAAM where the acquisition zone of the terminal seeker is relatively short, which either pushes you closer to WVR territory (to lock with the radar's terminal seeker only) or to keep your radar painted to the target (to maintain the missile's course to the target before its terminal seeker activates). But if you enter Meteor territory, then that terminal stage is much deeper than the AMRAAM C5, and will only get deeper from here on once AESA seekers come into play.

But then you have DRFM decoys, and in the future, actual decoy drones, jammers, and well into the future, active protection through laser systems. Technology keeps moving on both sides.
 
.
But then you have DRFM decoys, and in the future, actual decoy drones, jammers, and well into the future, active protection through laser systems. Technology keeps moving on both sides.
DRFM decoys sound good in theory, but power consumption in those small units and the cost of deployment are limiting factors. The chaff/flare dispenser ones are truly limited right now, you'd need hard-point dispensables, which will eat into your armament loads. AESA seekers will carry strong ECCM and will come much sooner than directed energy self-protection systems (which will contend with DE attacks).
 
.
DRFM decoys sound good in theory, but power consumption in those small units and the cost of deployment are limiting factors. The chaff/flare dispenser ones are truly limited right now, you'd need hard-point dispensables, which will eat into your armament loads. AESA seekers will carry strong ECCM and will come much sooner than directed energy self-protection systems (which will contend with DE attacks).

Well, the point is, the technology curve on both sides will keep improving. It would be suicide to consider any missile a fire-and-forget missile. You can only forget once the kill is confirmed.
 
.
Well, the point is, the technology curve on both sides will keep improving. It would be suicide to consider any missile a fire-and-forget missile. You can only forget once the kill is confirmed.
Just to be clear, "fire and forget" in the context of a technical discussion isn't the arcade notion of literally firing and forgetting. Rather, it is an enabler for the launching aircraft to break from having to maintain a sensor paint on the target. It shouldn't be misconstrued for forgetting the target. Current BVRAAMs require you to maintain a radar paint at long range, and newer ones lessen this requirement. The "forget" part is the benefit of reducing this need, which enables the firing unit to break off the paint sooner (without minimizing the kill chance) and/or switch off the radar (for LPI).
 
Last edited:
.
Just to be clear, "fire and forget" in the context of a technical discussion isn't the arcade notion of literally firing and forgetting. Rather, it is an enabler for the launching aircraft to break from having to maintain a sensor paint on the target. It shouldn't be misconstrued for forgetting the target. Current BVRAAMs require you to maintain a radar paint at long range, and newer ones lessen this requirement. The "forget" part is the benefit of reducing this need, which enables the firing unit to break off the paint sooner (without minimizing the kill chance) and/or switch off the radar (for LPI).

At BVR range, you keep tracking the target until the kill is confirmed, at the same time you keep closing the distance while looking out for incoming BVRs. This is the first BVR exchange before you merge. These are the rules of engagement for a one-on-one (or many-on-many) engagement. In a one-on-many (or few-on-many) scenario, the best you can do is shoot and scoot, but success is not guaranteed.

As a side note, the heat signature reduction around the DSI inlets that @messiach talks about would provide benefit in this type of initial merge.
 
.
At BVR range, you keep tracking the target until the kill is confirmed, at the same time you keep closing the distance while looking out for incoming BVRs. This is the first BVR exchange before you merge. These are the rules of engagement for a one-on-one (or many-on-many) engagement. In a one-on-many (or few-on-many) scenario, the best you can do is shoot and scoot, but success is not guaranteed.

As a side note, the heat signature reduction around the DSI inlets that @messiach talks about would provide benefit in this type of initial merge.
I don't know what you mean by "tracking." Are you referring to situational awareness whereby the firing unit tracks the targets on his sensor feed? Or are you referring to the BVRAAM relying on the firing aircraft's radar for location information? For "fire-and-forget" I am specifically referring to the latter. You won't find any disagreement for me on the the former, but in the technical discussion of "fire-and-forget", I am only referring to the latter.

One can fire a BVRAAM in one of two ways: (1) deploy it and have the missile rely on the fighter radar for guidance until it is close enough for the terminal stage seeker to finish the task OR (2) have the terminal stage seeker live from the launch point. The (2) scenario would happen at much closer range than (1) because your terminal seeker doesn't have as much range (power limitations) than the fighter radar.

A major aspect of seeker advancement - e.g. the inclusion of AESA radar seekers - is that the terminal stage can potentially be increased. This means the need to have the radar paint the target (to guide the missile before the seeker is activated) is reduced; a fighter can scoot (much earlier) after firing one or even a salvo of missiles.

When a fighter scoots (or enters WVR maneuvering), it is likely that it won't be able to use its radar to keep guiding the missile, meaning the missile is entirely reliant on its terminal seeker. The better the terminal seeker, the longer the missile can effectively operate without the off-board sensor (which in WVR would be shut-off for bettering the LPI vis-a-vis enemy radars).
 
Last edited:
.
Correct info.
QUOTE="Bilal Khan (Quwa), post: 9670599, member: 178483"]I don't know what you mean by "tracking." Are you referring to situational awareness whereby the firing unit tracks the targets on his sensor feed? Or are you referring to the BVRAAM relying on the firing aircraft's radar for location information? For "fire-and-forget" I am specifically referring to the latter. You won't find any disagreement for me on the the former, but in the technical discussion of "fire-and-forget", I am only referring to the latter.

One can fire a BVRAAM in one of two ways: (1) deploy it and have the missile rely on the fighter radar for guidance until it is close enough for the terminal stage seeker to finish the task OR (2) have the terminal stage seeker live from the launch point. The (2) scenario would happen at much closer range than (1) because your terminal seeker doesn't have as much range (power limitations) than the fighter radar.

A major aspect of seeker advancement - e.g. the inclusion of AESA radar seekers - is that the terminal stage can potentially be increased. This means the need to have the radar paint the target (to guide the missile before the seeker is activated) is reduced; a fighter can scoot (much earlier) after firing one or even a salvo of missiles.

When a fighter scoots (or enters WVR maneuvering), it is likely that it won't be able to use its radar to keep guiding the missile, meaning the missile is entirely reliant on its terminal seeker. The better the terminal seeker, the longer the missile can effectively operate without the off-board sensor (which in WVR would be shut-off for bettering the LPI vis-a-vis enemy radars).[/QUOTE]
 
.
Hi,

As Oscar had mentioned---I very much doubt if the Paf is going for the PL15---.

Where at one time it was a leader in induction---now it has become a lackadaisical follower of events---if it happens---then it happens kind of attitude---.

The induction of the current system is time consuming and labor intensive---. Let the chinese spend their time on the new missile---which I think may not be the PL15----but rather an upgraded version of the PL12
 
.
I don't know what you mean by "tracking." Are you referring to situational awareness whereby the firing unit tracks the targets on his sensor feed? Or are you referring to the BVRAAM relying on the firing aircraft's radar for location information? For "fire-and-forget" I am specifically referring to the latter. You won't find any disagreement for me on the the former, but in the technical discussion of "fire-and-forget", I am only referring to the latter.

One can fire a BVRAAM in one of two ways: (1) deploy it and have the missile rely on the fighter radar for guidance until it is close enough for the terminal stage seeker to finish the task OR (2) have the terminal stage seeker live from the launch point. The (2) scenario would happen at much closer range than (1) because your terminal seeker doesn't have as much range (power limitations) than the fighter radar.

A major aspect of seeker advancement - e.g. the inclusion of AESA radar seekers - is that the terminal stage can potentially be increased. This means the need to have the radar paint the target (to guide the missile before the seeker is activated) is reduced; a fighter can scoot (much earlier) after firing one or even a salvo of missiles.

When a fighter scoots (or enters WVR maneuvering), it is likely that it won't be able to use its radar to keep guiding the missile, meaning the missile is entirely reliant on its terminal seeker. The better the terminal seeker, the longer the missile can effectively operate without the off-board sensor (which in WVR would be shut-off for bettering the LPI vis-a-vis enemy radars).

Apologies for all the back and forth. Let's get the terminology out of the way. By 'tracking', I meant the aircraft's continuous tracking of the threat until it is eliminated. Regardless of how long the aircraft supplies updates to the missile, the aircraft needs to keep the target under tracking, and the pilot cannot spare his attention either. If he's flying something like F-22, that's another matter. But in JF-17 and F-16, the pilot will be performing evasive maneuvers to evade the incoming BVR salvo, while at the same time getting into an advantageous position in case the bogey survives the initial BVR exchange.

I found the following tidbit regarding DRFM

http://ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html
It is an open question whether the AIM-120D when challenged with a modern DRFM (Digital RF Memory) based monopulse trackbreaking jammer will be able to significantly exceed the 50 percent order of magnitude kill probability of prior combat launches, let alone replicate the 85 percent performance achieved in ideal test range conditions
 
.
Apologies for all the back and forth. Let's get the terminology out of the way. By 'tracking', I meant the aircraft's continuous tracking of the threat until it is eliminated. Regardless of how long the aircraft supplies updates to the missile, the aircraft needs to keep the target under tracking, and the pilot cannot spare his attention either. If he's flying something like F-22, that's another matter. But in JF-17 and F-16, the pilot will be performing evasive maneuvers to evade the incoming BVR salvo, while at the same time getting into an advantageous position in case the bogey survives the initial BVR exchange.

I found the following tidbit regarding DRFM

http://ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html
Do you mean the radar keeping track of the targets for the pilot's feed ... or the radar actively painting a specific target to maintain a mid-course link with the missiles?

The issue of "fire-and-forget" refers to being able to free the fighter's radar from painting a target.

This has nothing to do with the pilot's attention - the idea that the pilot should pay attention to the situation of his targets is just common sense. Nor is the "fire-and-forget" discussion referring to the pilot's attention or lack thereof, but the ability to defer more of the targeting and engagement work to the munition instead of having the munition rely on the fighter's radar.

The fighter radar isn't a rotating dome, it has coverage limitations, so it cannot be expected to consistently paint the target at all times in an engagement. There are also situations where the fighter's radar has to be shut-off (from risk of passive-seekers, enemy RWR, enemy EW jamming, etc).

The more you can pack into the munition and increase its effectiveness as an autonomous weapon, the better.

This is a major reason why 5th-gen WVRAAM are a dangerous weapon; HOBS enables the pilot to deploy the missile and then execute a lock (via HMD/S) after launch. Once the target comes into the view of the IIR seeker, the AAM becomes a major problem for the recipient.

The idea that this could potentially be done to a BVRAAM via an AESA seeker with wide and long-range radar coverage of its own is enticing.

Yes the pilot will still be in the loop of executing the engagement, but he can switch-off his radar and also prepare for evasion or WVR whilst executing a long-range attack without making the BVR engagement hopeless (which is what happens when the AAM is still relying on the launch fighter's radar for mid-course data).

The bottleneck is seeing through advances in power consumption, which returns to my original point of investing in seeker (and by extension power management) technologies.
 
.
Can Pl-10 and Pl-15 be integrated in JFT block II aircrafts? I mean why we are waiting for the block III for integration of all important weapons.
 
.
The fighter radar isn't a rotating dome, it has coverage limitations, so it cannot be expected to consistently paint the target at all times in an engagement. There are also situations where the fighter's radar has to be shut-off (from risk of passive-seekers, enemy RWR, enemy EW jamming, etc).

In modern, 21st century air combat, such loss of situational awareness would be unacceptable. Whether the radar on the jet needs to be turned off or not, under no circumstance is it acceptable to lose situational awareness. Whether it is through AWACS link, passive sensors, or network centric capabilities, the pilot will continue to have up-to-date information on the bogey until the kill is confirmed. If this cannot be done, then its time to upgrade the EW suite, or get a new plane.

The more you can pack into the munition and increase its effectiveness as an autonomous weapon, the better.

This is a major reason why 5th-gen WVRAAM are a dangerous weapon; HOBS enables the pilot to deploy the missile and then execute a lock (via HMD/S) after launch. Once the target comes into the view of the IIR seeker, the AAM becomes a major problem for the recipient.

The idea that this could potentially be done to a BVRAAM via an AESA seeker with wide and long-range radar coverage of its own is enticing.

BVR and WVR are two separate beasts and it is best not to mix them up. WVR missiles enjoy the luxury of supersonic/hypersonic speeds throughout their flight because of the short distance they need to cover. This, combined with advanced seekers is what makes them lethal. There simply isn't any equivalent in the BVR world. You would never use a BVR missile in a WVR situation, except if you are completely out of missiles.

The range of a BVR depends, amongst other things, on which fighter is wielding it.

http://ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html
In terms of kinematic performance, a key factor which is almost universally ignored by Western planners other than the F-22 and F-111 communities, is the impact of the launch aircraft's kinematics at the point of missile launch. A supersonic Su-35 sitting at Mach 1.5 and 45,000 ft will add of the order of 30 percent more range to an R-27 or R-77 missile. Low performance fighters like the F/A-18E/F and F-35 JSF simply do not have this option in the real world, and the reach of their missiles is wholly determined by the parameters of the propellant load inside the missile casing, and the ability of the midcourse guidance algorithms to extract every bit of range from that stored energy. The result of this is that an AIM-120C/D which might look better on paper compared to an equivalent R-77 subtype will be outranged decisively in actual combat.

It is no wonder then that a single engine jet such as Gripen-NG today boasts supercruise capability. In the future, the range and lethality of BVRs may be increased not by improving the missile, but by improving the platform that launches it. The future of BVR that I have read about foresees a spearhead fighter controlling BVRs launched by other planes - possibly even the AWACS itself. Sans missiles hanging on external hardpoints, the aircraft would have low RCS, yet able to wield the deadly arsenal launched by a different plane.

Yes the pilot will still be in the loop of executing the engagement, but he can switch-off his radar and also prepare for evasion or WVR whilst executing a long-range attack without making the BVR engagement hopeless (which is what happens when the AAM is still relying on the launch fighter's radar for mid-course data).

The bottleneck is seeing through advances in power consumption, which returns to my original point of investing in seeker (and by extension power management) technologies.

The BVR missile need not rely on the fighter's radar. It can rely on an AWACS. Or, it could be following a jamming signal. Or, in the case of later model Russian missiles, it may have an IR seeker.

Let us recall the current mantra of F-22 and F-35 pilots: the Russians like to boast there is no such thing as a stealthy plane, but we don't need to make the plane stealthy. We just need to attack the weakest link on the enemy's kill chain. My personal opinion: In a world of high powered radar jamming, microwave interference, active cancellation, and radar based decoys, the weakest powered component is literally the weakest link.
 
Last edited:
.
The fighter radar isn't a rotating dome, it has coverage limitations, so it cannot be expected to consistently paint the target at all times in an engagement.
With ESA, that is no longer an issue. An AESA with true multi-beams multi-operations is desirable, but the less capable PESA will still be superior to the classical mechanical scanning system.
 
. .
Hi,

As Oscar had mentioned---I very much doubt if the Paf is going for the PL15---.

Where at one time it was a leader in induction---now it has become a lackadaisical follower of events---if it happens---then it happens kind of attitude---.

The induction of the current system is time consuming and labor intensive---. Let the chinese spend their time on the new missile---which I think may not be the PL15----but rather an upgraded version of the PL12
The PAF reminds me of a person here

He will always be near broke or with very little money, but will happily spend $80 on a PfChangs dinner yet spend two hours at Marshalls deciding on $40 pants and still not get them.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom