Next Evolution in Pakistani Cruise Missiles

[Oldman1]

Hypersonic is the new frontier

Yeah but pretty expensive. IMO, I don't think Pakistan really needs to invest in it when it already have the subsonic cruise missiles, I think it has supersonic as well, haven't looked. But also ballistic missiles which pretty much is hypersonic anyways. Can make it both convention and unconventional.

 

[Falcon26]

The key thing with Europe is that the consortium still operates as one vendor. So, each party within that consortium benefits from a sale (e.g., France sells the engine, the UK and Italy split the electronics, etc). However, the one vendor (MBDA) operates across all of those countries.

However, Pakistan doesn't have that kind of flexibility with anyone. Even China would want to export its own cruise missiles, so there's no point in relying on COTS Chinese engines as Beijing can nix the deal. I'd back @Bratva's assessment, i.e., Pakistan will only offer Harbah for export if it can indigenously manufacture every critical input.

IIRC we have an instrumented weapons test range and wind tunnel facilities under construction. If given the funding, we could see some neat indigenous cruise missile work on our end. Who knows, we might finally develop something like the Raptor-3 -- i.e., take the best of H-2/H-4, but built on an air-breathing engine for a cruise missile-type range.

View attachment 827013

Imagine the leap in competence and professionalism if, for example, TAI bought 51% stake of PAC, and Aselsan gained similar stake in AWC.

The huge Pakistani defense market coupled with demand for quality products will attract Turkish investment, improve competence of Pakistani engineers, and interlink military-industrial complex of both countries the same way European MIC are such as Leonardo, MBDA etc. @JamD

For example, if the Pakistani army requires a cruise missile with 1500km range, the Turks working in conjunction with AWC can pitch a newly developed missile powered by Turkish engine but manufactured in Pakistan with the requisite IP rights. Same thing for drones and other equipment. The possibilities are endless but it requires creative planning and understanding that Pakistan alone doesn’t have the skills, history nor resources to develop all its defense needs nor can it rely on imports like India.

 

[HRK]

The ramjet applications (SMASH?) would take things to a whole other level.

this thing alone indicate that not only missile program but propulsion program is active.

What @Bratva is indicting is believable as export itself an evidence in support of his theories, but we could also use the reports from Egyption media about the discussion of Pakistan & Egypt regarding the possible sales of Babur missile or some version of it in support of his theory.

 

[HRK]

Havent we been bitten by ISPR over ranges several times? Like Shaheen-2 2500 km, Then they settled down to 1500 KM.

Babur 500, then 700, then 450 KM it is.

Pakistani missile ranges are 1 step forward, 2 step backwards.

When they upgrade the range of some missile, then they tell the actual range of Previous Block e.g Shaheen-2 from 2500 KM to 1500. Only that came into light when Shaheen 3 2750KM range was revealed

Same with Babur. Babur-1B enhanced range is tested, Now they admitting Babur-1 was 450 KM all along.

I think in case of Babur Missile they were honestly reporting it, but increase/decrease in Ranges were mostly related to diff. version of the missiles.

Once I compiled the reports of Babur cruise missiles versions and their reportings in media, following is that list

Now coming to present days one first need to know that Pakistan has following versions of different Cruise missiles

- Babur-I GLCM 500 KM range [link from 2005]
- Babur-IA GLCM 600 KM and then 700 KM version, capable to hit land targets only [link from-2006] [Link-1, link-2]
- Babur-IB GLCM 700 Km range capable to hit both land and sea targets [link]
- Babur-II GLCM +750 KM range improvements in guidance [Link, Link-2]
- Babur-III SLCM 450 KM range [official link] [link]
- Raad-I ALCM, 350 Km range, for land and sea targets [official links: 2008, 2012]
- Raad-II ALCM with 600 Km range [official link]
- Harba Ship Launch version of Babur-II [official link]

 

[HRK]

BTW Naval News is reporting that as per GIDS CEO Qatar is interestingly looking the offer of Manufacturing the Harba missiles locally (link)

 

[HRK]

This video give little bit detail about PN Milgem as well & confirming Z-9C helicopter

 

[Zarvan]

"FIRE AND FORGET" & " RE-ATTACK CAPABILITIES"

Based on the recent Images, My discussions at DIMDEX, and Capabilities Pakistan is revealing for its cruise missile. Here is my working theory

In past 15 years, Pakistan worked hard on the navigation and basic propulsion of Cruise missiles along with the composite body. Hence the range limited to 450 KM ( as per 23rd march announcement). Ra'ad-1 limited to 350 KM and was bulky. Engine tech was imported or very crude.

But it all changed with the advent of HARBA. Pakistan started working on indigenous engines from 2017-2018 on-wards to power its ever expanding arsenals of cruise missile

Along with propulsion and engine tech, Teams worked on adding additional advance features on cruise missile like Re-tasking the missile in flight for new attack targets or adding new way points inflight. Plus integrating the beidou Navigation

in 2017, Pakistan tested. Babur-3 with 450 KM. It was most probably the base version with the same old engine. Also it revealed a model of RAAD-2

Things most probably started changing around 2017-2018 when Babur-2, Babur-3 and Harba Was fired and decision to make local engines materialized and More advanced Navigation suite which has Fire and Forget capability along with Tactical/Satellite datalinks added into it which will allow for the Re-tasking/Re-attack capabilities

Now My working theory no.1 is

Babur-1 A is where they tested advance avionics and new Navigation/Satellite features

Babur-1B is where they tested new/upgraded/Indigenous Engine

Working Theory no.2

That indigenous took its time to develop, Hence RAAD-2 took 3 years from the unveiling in March 23 2017 to actual test firing in 2020

Working theory No.3 - Which is based on facts

Army is Sheepish when it comes to announcing new capabilities.

But HARBA expost version revealed alot. What Army meant when they used to say " Upgraded avionics and Navigation system" is True fire and forget and Re Attack Capabilities.


This Theory is supported by the actual imagery evidence plus what ISPR has been disclosing about ranges

The New Indigenous engine has led an increase in the ranges of All the cruise missiles i.e BABUR-1B, RAAD-2 and allowed HARBA to be exported with the range caped at 290 KM


RE-Attack Capabilities has been introduced in ALL the cruise missiles.

Babur-1 B ( A & 2) - Addition of new Sensor

View attachment 827003

Babur-1b

View attachment 827004


RAAD-2 new antenna

HARBA

As it is self explanatory in the poster


Working Theory No.4

This decade will be all about Making advance engine and propulsion tech . Since the previous 2 decades were about Perfecting navigation and other things for the cruise missile

Pakistan is successful in manufacturing a local engine. But that engine is not efficient. So In order to see the 1500 KM + Ranges for Babur or 1000 KM+ range for RAAD 2. We have to wait another 5-6 years. Because Engine upgrade cycles occurring continuously . There will be multiple iterations. Harba and Babur propulsion teams are continuously working to further upgrade the local engine that has been put into production after successfully ironing out all the kinks. Basic version will be made into an advanced version

Babur-1 B that tested enhanced range is just the starting. In coming years once Pakistani engine Tech gets more mature, The speed and Range will increase in multiples

Plus the Pakistan also working on Supersonic/Hypersonic. So that engine R&D will also be happening in parallel of newly developed indigenous engines


@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @kursed @SQ8 @PanzerKiel @The Eagle

Great theories and writing. Here are my two cents on it.

1. Not only we need to master and improve our engines for cruise missiles we also need work on improving and developing new fuel for those engines and motors that helps cruise missile go to much long range without increasing its size.
2. We need to increase range of missiles in all three domains. For Air versions 800 KM will be great for Land and Naval 1200 should be starting point.
3. Cruise missiles and MRL will play critical role in future conflicts. Russia Ukrainian conflict proves Air Defence systems are really overrated.
4. We need to come up with super sonic and hypersonic cruise missiles as soon as possible. And also develop more deadly conventional warheads.

 

[Tipu7]

Fellas, we are working to develop missiles in all three categories: subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic.
All three will be employed as all three of them have their own unique capabilities. Naming stuff comes later.

 

[Bin Laden]

Although there is no info on the design of the supersonic missile, which could be either fully indigenous or based upon chinese designs, Either way is plausible, But if we indeed go for the second then I wish we go for something like the HD-x product stack Or some other with similar Scalability for widespread implementations. e.g;

1: HD-1 ( LONG STICK)

Visibly looks like elongated YJ12, (Way better design than Brahmos IMO) Flies at 3.5 MACH carries twice the payload

2: YJ-12(CM302) ( MEDIAN STICK)

Carried by our Type 54A/Ps Frigates

3: HD-1C (SHORT STICK)

Compact design makes it easier to deploy and harder to intercept.
Air launched version of this missile designated HD-1A is slated to equip Jf-17 and Mirages.

 

[Bratva]

 

[TheSolution]

Fellas, we are working to develop missiles in all three categories: subsonic, supersonic and hypersonic.
All three will be employed as all three of them have their own unique capabilities. Naming stuff comes later.

Hypersonic cruise missile or more like a ballistic missile with a hypersonic glider vehicle?

 

[khansaheeb]

Focus should be on hypersonic propulsion and Electronic counter measures with AI for counter measures.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Hypersonic cruise missile or more like a ballistic missile with a hypersonic glider vehicle?

For Hypersonic cruise missile,we need a Sramjet engine
We don't have RAMJET engine let alone SCRAMJET
Indians have access to Brahmos's Ramjet engine since early 2000s still they are unable to field a Hypersonic cruise missile.
And Engine is just one part of equation.

Problem is these things need huge investments for development.And our economy is in shit state.
So Hypersonics are a thing of post-2035 at least for Pakistan.

 

[TheSolution]

For Hypersonic cruise missile,we need a Sramjet engine
We don't have RAMJET engine let alone SCRAMJET
Indians have access to Brahmos's Ramjet engine since early 2000s still they are unable to field a Hypersonic cruise missile.
And Engine is just one part of equation.

Problem is these things need huge investments for development.And our economy is in shit state.
So Hypersonics are a thing of post-2035 at least for Pakistan.

But Tipu says there are active programs going on for development, likely we'll maybe even get Chinese assistance, maybe not for a hypersonic cruise missile but at the very least we need supersonic.

If we could get a HGV for our ballistic missiles that would also be a huge boost

 

[Abid123]

If we could get a HGV for our ballistic missiles that would also be a huge boost

Well you know... North Korea.... If you know what I mean?