Next Evolution in Pakistani Cruise Missiles

[313ghazi]

Any thoughts or news on if we're developing ramjet engines?

 

[RAMPAGE]

The ramjet applications (SMASH?) would take things to a whole other level.

RAMJET? Isn't SMASH an ASBM?

 

[Bratva]

The ramjet applications (SMASH?) would take things to a whole other level.

My personal assessment is China is helping Pakistan in Naval domain for now. Why the navy because they are leading the Supersonic revolution (SMASH/P282) in missile tech and since Chinese Navy is already proficient in Supersonic tech.

For Airforce domain, China has not been able to master ramjet engine for BVR missiles for now. PL-21 was supposed to be Chinese Meteor. They have perfected dual pulse engine. Lets see how long it takes for them to miniaturize ramjet for Aerial missile

 

[FuturePAF]

JF-17 is suffering from exact piss poor presentation skills, no? Yet it has been able to find some export customers. GIDS are hopeful they can compete with European missile makers who are selling to Middle Eastern Navies

They really need to crowdsource an advertising campaign for the JF-17 in a collaboration of Pakistan’s top Advertising/Marketing agencies. Put a little money in to PR and better equipment to film at parades. Or at least give top defense youtubers a chance to put something together. There is a lot of potential promise in a collaboration with the Nigerian Air Force, as Nigeria is the largest media market in Africa, and their movie industry puts out a lot of content, and allot of potential customers for the JF-17 could be in Africa. The JF-17 could be known as the AU’s “Peacekeeper” fighter with the right marketing.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

"FIRE AND FORGET" & " RE-ATTACK CAPABILITIES"

Based on the recent Images, My discussions at DIMDEX, and Capabilities Pakistan is revealing for its cruise missile. Here is my working theory

In past 15 years, Pakistan worked hard on the navigation and basic propulsion of Cruise missiles along with the composite body. Hence the range limited to 450 KM ( as per 23rd march announcement). Ra'ad-1 limited to 350 KM and was bulky. Engine tech was imported or very crude.

But it all changed with the advent of HARBA. Pakistan started working on indigenous engines from 2017-2018 on-wards to power its ever expanding arsenals of cruise missile

Along with propulsion and engine tech, Teams worked on adding additional advance features on cruise missile like Re-tasking the missile in flight for new attack targets or adding new way points inflight. Plus integrating the beidou Navigation

in 2017, Pakistan tested. Babur-3 with 450 KM. It was most probably the base version with the same old engine. Also it revealed a model of RAAD-2

Things most probably started changing around 2017-2018 when Babur-2, Babur-3 and Harba Was fired and decision to make local engines materialized and More advanced Navigation suite which has Fire and Forget capability along with Tactical/Satellite datalinks added into it which will allow for the Re-tasking/Re-attack capabilities

Now My working theory no.1 is

Babur-1 A is where they tested advance avionics and new Navigation/Satellite features

Babur-1B is where they tested new/upgraded/Indigenous Engine

Working Theory no.2

That indigenous took its time to develop, Hence RAAD-2 took 3 years from the unveiling in March 23 2017 to actual test firing in 2020

Working theory No.3 - Which is based on facts

Army is Sheepish when it comes to announcing new capabilities.

But HARBA expost version revealed alot. What Army meant when they used to say " Upgraded avionics and Navigation system" is True fire and forget and Re Attack Capabilities.


This Theory is supported by the actual imagery evidence plus what ISPR has been disclosing about ranges

The New Indigenous engine has led an increase in the ranges of All the cruise missiles i.e BABUR-1B, RAAD-2 and allowed HARBA to be exported with the range caped at 290 KM


RE-Attack Capabilities has been introduced in ALL the cruise missiles.

Babur-1 B ( A & 2) - Addition of new Sensor

View attachment 827003

Babur-1b

View attachment 827004


RAAD-2 new antenna

HARBA

As it is self explanatory in the poster


Working Theory No.4

This decade will be all about Making advance engine and propulsion tech . Since the previous 2 decades were about Perfecting navigation and other things for the cruise missile

Pakistan is successful in manufacturing a local engine. But that engine is not efficient. So In order to see the 1500 KM + Ranges for Babur or 1000 KM+ range for RAAD 2. We have to wait another 5-6 years. Because Engine upgrade cycles occurring continuously . There will be multiple iterations. Harba and Babur propulsion teams are continuously working to further upgrade the local engine that has been put into production after successfully ironing out all the kinks. Basic version will be made into an advanced version

Babur-1 B that tested enhanced range is just the starting. In coming years once Pakistani engine Tech gets more mature, The speed and Range will increase in multiples

Plus the Pakistan also working on Supersonic/Hypersonic. So that engine R&D will also be happening in parallel of newly developed indigenous engines


@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @kursed @SQ8 @PanzerKiel @The Eagle

Supersonic??? Hypersonic?? Why are we still working on Subsonic only ?

 

[Bratva]

Mid Course, re-attack and fire forget capabilities were supposedly completing before engine or range area, hence, we see clear announcement. Regarding engines or range, we shall remember that true range is never declared at-least the range for tactical reasons keeping the surprise element at hand for the enemy. I don't doubt the theory of low range given the engine but, I see that a lot is progressing and achieved several milestones.

I will say that, ISPR has been very careful in range references. We just don't want to draw too much of attention and concerns of world police but, the capability is kept since it's not about boasting on current stage.

Havent we been bitten by ISPR over ranges several times? Like Shaheen-2 2500 km, Then they settled down to 1500 KM.

Babur 500, then 700, then 450 KM it is.

Pakistani missile ranges are 1 step forward, 2 step backwards.

When they upgrade the range of some missile, then they tell the actual range of Previous Block e.g Shaheen-2 from 2500 KM to 1500. Only that came into light when Shaheen 3 2750KM range was revealed

Same with Babur. Babur-1B enhanced range is tested, Now they admitting Babur-1 was 450 KM all along.

 

[TheSnakeEatingMarkhur]

My personal assessment is China is helping Pakistan in Naval domain for now. Why the navy because they are leading the Supersonic revolution (SMASH/P282) in missile tech and since Chinese Navy is already proficient in Supersonic tech.

For Airforce domain, China has not been able to master ramjet engine for BVR missiles for now. PL-21 was supposed to be Chinese Meteor. They have perfected dual pulse engine. Lets see how long it takes for them to miniaturize ramjet for Aerial missile

SMASH?

 

[Genghis khan1]

Pakistan is successful in manufacturing a local engine. But that engine is not efficient. So In order to see the 1500 KM + Ranges for Babur or 1000 KM+ range for RAAD 2. We have to wait another 5-6 years. Because Engine upgrade cycles occurring continuously

The lynchpin is often the fan blade material science that are rotating at very high RPM above their melting point. Longer the range, more stress onto the blades and therefore failure.

Addressing this issue comes down to the rearrangement of atom/molecules of the material, where microscopic gaps between atoms are no longer there, than advance casting and stuff.

This is where things like supercomputers becomes essential to run iteration and simulations. Which I don’t think Airforce or Pakistan has at this moment. May be Chinese are letting them use their computing resources. Which idk.

 

[JamD]

"FIRE AND FORGET" & " RE-ATTACK CAPABILITIES"

Based on the recent Images, My discussions at DIMDEX, and Capabilities Pakistan is revealing for its cruise missile. Here is my working theory

In past 15 years, Pakistan worked hard on the navigation and basic propulsion of Cruise missiles along with the composite body. Hence the range limited to 450 KM ( as per 23rd march announcement). Ra'ad-1 limited to 350 KM and was bulky. Engine tech was imported or very crude.

But it all changed with the advent of HARBA. Pakistan started working on indigenous engines from 2017-2018 on-wards to power its ever expanding arsenals of cruise missile

Along with propulsion and engine tech, Teams worked on adding additional advance features on cruise missile like Re-tasking the missile in flight for new attack targets or adding new way points inflight. Plus integrating the beidou Navigation

in 2017, Pakistan tested. Babur-3 with 450 KM. It was most probably the base version with the same old engine. Also it revealed a model of RAAD-2

Things most probably started changing around 2017-2018 when Babur-2, Babur-3 and Harba Was fired and decision to make local engines materialized and More advanced Navigation suite which has Fire and Forget capability along with Tactical/Satellite datalinks added into it which will allow for the Re-tasking/Re-attack capabilities

Now My working theory no.1 is

Babur-1 A is where they tested advance avionics and new Navigation/Satellite features

Babur-1B is where they tested new/upgraded/Indigenous Engine

Working Theory no.2

That indigenous took its time to develop, Hence RAAD-2 took 3 years from the unveiling in March 23 2017 to actual test firing in 2020

Working theory No.3 - Which is based on facts

Army is Sheepish when it comes to announcing new capabilities.

But HARBA expost version revealed alot. What Army meant when they used to say " Upgraded avionics and Navigation system" is True fire and forget and Re Attack Capabilities.


This Theory is supported by the actual imagery evidence plus what ISPR has been disclosing about ranges

The New Indigenous engine has led an increase in the ranges of All the cruise missiles i.e BABUR-1B, RAAD-2 and allowed HARBA to be exported with the range caped at 290 KM


RE-Attack Capabilities has been introduced in ALL the cruise missiles.

Babur-1 B ( A & 2) - Addition of new Sensor

View attachment 827003

Babur-1b

View attachment 827004


RAAD-2 new antenna

HARBA

As it is self explanatory in the poster


Working Theory No.4

This decade will be all about Making advance engine and propulsion tech . Since the previous 2 decades were about Perfecting navigation and other things for the cruise missile

Pakistan is successful in manufacturing a local engine. But that engine is not efficient. So In order to see the 1500 KM + Ranges for Babur or 1000 KM+ range for RAAD 2. We have to wait another 5-6 years. Because Engine upgrade cycles occurring continuously . There will be multiple iterations. Harba and Babur propulsion teams are continuously working to further upgrade the local engine that has been put into production after successfully ironing out all the kinks. Basic version will be made into an advanced version

Babur-1 B that tested enhanced range is just the starting. In coming years once Pakistani engine Tech gets more mature, The speed and Range will increase in multiples

Plus the Pakistan also working on Supersonic/Hypersonic. So that engine R&D will also be happening in parallel of newly developed indigenous engines


@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @kursed @SQ8 @PanzerKiel @The Eagle

I agree with most of your conjectures.

I think the "antenna" that you are referring to is just a pitot tube. With that being said, we shouldn't take paraded mockups too seriously for details.

The presence of an protruding pitot tube points to the "safe but inefficient" design philosophy at work. Modern air data systems rely on multiple ports recessed into the airframe. There are even papers by Pakistani researchers on this so it might happen soon or might be happening as we speak. A protruding pitot tube has a drag and RCS penalty but is way easier to implement.

I feel a lot of the design choices are safe and then move towards refinement. I think the move from H tail to X tail is one such refinement.

On range I think extending range beyond 500km has not been a priority because of targetting difficulties. However, with various targetting capabilities coming online the focus will have to shift towards more efficient propulsion and more refined aerodynamic/control design.

 

[helloworld25]

The lynchpin is often the fan blade material science that are rotating at very high RPM above their melting point. Longer the range, more stress onto the blades and therefore failure.

Addressing this issue comes down to the rearrangement of atom/molecules of the material, where microscopic gaps between atoms are no longer there, than advance casting and stuff.

This is where things like supercomputers becomes essential to run iteration and simulations. Which I don’t think Airforce or Pakistan has at this moment. May be Chinese are letting them use their computing resources. Which idk.

not sure if Im correct but I've heard that pakistan does have supercomputers at its disposal and one is available at nust

 

[flameboard]

Hypersonic is the new frontier

 

[[--Leo--]]

Any info about seeker other than IR

 

[SQ8]

I agree with most of your conjectures.

I think the "antenna" that you are referring to is just a pitot tube. With that being said, we shouldn't take paraded mockups too seriously for details.

The presence of an protruding pitot tube points to the "safe but inefficient" design philosophy at work. Modern air data systems rely on multiple ports recessed into the airframe. There are even papers by Pakistani researchers on this so it might happen soon or might be happening as we speak. A protruding pitot tube has a drag and RCS penalty but is way easier to implement.

I feel a lot of the design choices are safe and then move towards refinement. I think the move from H tail to X tail is one such refinement.

On range I think extending range beyond 500km has not been a priority because of targetting difficulties. However, with various targetting capabilities coming online the focus will have to shift towards more efficient propulsion and more refined aerodynamic/control design.

Yes as such no mention of the Zarb system which I think is likely a land launched Harbah.

 

[JamD]

Yes as such no mention of the Zarb system which I think is likely a land launched Harbah.

My guess was different actually - Zarb being a lengthened C602. I concluded this because all of the pieces lined up too perfectly to be a coincidence. However, we both might be right as well. I have no reference image for Babur that is perfectly square. Maybe Babur looks exactly like the C602 too.

 

[FuturePAF]

My guess was different actually - Zarb being a lengthened C602. I concluded this because all of the pieces lined up too perfectly to be a coincidence. However, we both might be right as well. I have no reference image for Babur that is perfectly square. Maybe Babur looks exactly like the C602 too.

Hopefully also signature reductions in RCS and IR, like the ones being developed in Europe. If Pakistani companies can undercut European companies on Price, but provide similar performance, they can gain a lot of customers and possibly keep them for other projects.

Future Cruise and Anti-Ship Weapon FC/ASW Program Reaches New Milestone - Naval News

The head of the French DGA, his British DE&S counterpart and the CEO of MBDA signed a bilateral agreement and contracts for the continued preparatory work for the Future Cruise and Anti-Ship Weapon (FC/ASW) Programme. The kick-off meeting was held on 17th february 2022.

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